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Original poster

Rape -Judy Finnegan

196 replies

HiawathaDidntBotherTooMuch · 13/10/2014 23:05

DH and I were talking about this earlier. I hadn't heard anything about it, but he said 'Judy Finnegan got into trouble earlier for what she said about that footballer, going on to recount what she had said. Then he said 'you can understand what she meant though, there are different types of rape ...'. I flew off the handle, and said that I was offended and disgusted by what he had said.

He then went on and in about how sentences can vary to reflect the degrees of violence in rapes. I again flew off the handle and said that all rapes are violent.

He tried to explain what he meant. Which was that all rapes are disgusting, and every rapist should go to prison for their actions. But that some rapes involved more violence than others, just like some murders are more violent than others. He wanted to discuss it with me, but I couldn't speak to him, I was so disgusted. He has stormed off saying that I am pathetic and weird for not discussing what he had tried to explain.

I cannot get my head around what he is saying.

OP posts:
Lweji · 14/10/2014 10:47

ie if a person is raped and murdered, aren't they only tried for the murder?

not necessarily. They will be guilty of a series of offences and it will be reflected on sentencing.
A quick death would probably attract a lighter sentence than a death involving torture.

Lweji · 14/10/2014 11:01

We are saying all rape is very bad, but aggravating factors can make it even worse. We are not saying all rape is bad but some is less important or not really rape.

Quite, and in relation to the OP, what is important is to establish what the OH was saying: if he was minimising rape or just recognising that there are aggravating factors.

Most people, when thinking about rape, probably think of some of the most serious cases, with additional violence. And perhaps talk about less serious cases in relation to those.
What is needed is to start thinking of rape as the most basic violation of rights over their bodies by women and look at a scale of increased seriousness from there.

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 11:51

"What is needed is to start thinking of rape as the most basic violation of rights over their bodies"

Yes, agreed.

MiddletonPink · 14/10/2014 11:57

" all rape is equally rape " I agree with that.

There are different scenarios though aren't there?

A woman who is raped at knife point, dragged off the street and attacked.

A woman who is raped by someone she is dating/married to.

Both rape.

I'm presuming the OP's DH meant something like the above?

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 11:59

Both rape.

One is rape along with abduction and threatening with a weapon.

The other is rape.

MiddletonPink · 14/10/2014 12:05

I know it's both rape, that's what I said.

I'm trying to understand where the OP's DH could come up with his reasonings.

GinAndSonic · 14/10/2014 12:32

Penetrating a person against there will is violence, no matter how little force you use to do so. Sadly, many women not only experience this form of violence, but additional violence as well, at the time of their rape. Men who rape deserve to recieve tough sentences. Men who rape, beat, abduct etc their victims deserve to recieve exceptionally tough sentences.
2 years then back to your football career is bullshit, no matter how you view it.

Scotslasslivinginfrance · 14/10/2014 12:36

The topic of rape is an emotive subject however it is important that we are able to discuss it openly without fear of recrimination because without a healthy safe dialogue around the subject it becomes difficult to educate / change the opinions of those with a limited knowledge and understanding or those with differing view points.

Quite often in discussions people don't always find the right words to use to best represent their feelings / thoughts/ ideas and it is only through discussion that we can fully understand what they mean that doesn't make them a bad person.

Shutting down discussion is not helpful. As regards Judy Finnegan I think what she said, given her wealth of experience in the media and TV, was massively naive and clumsy and I think the OP's husband was being honest in his thoughts and I wouldn't have taken offence with what he said but would have continued the discussion.

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 12:38

Middle, this is what he said:

"you can understand what she meant though, there are different types of rape "

This really doesn't get said about other types of crime. Someone comes through a window when you are asleep and robs your house vs you opening the door to them and being pushed over whilst they grab things and flee - no one says "there are different kinds of theft", though they may say, "how awful you were robbed and pushed over as well" or something.

KoalaKoo · 14/10/2014 12:41

Owl , violence can't be treated as a seperate offence because in the UK almost all sentencing is concurrent, which would mean that rapists weren't punished for violence.

KoalaKoo · 14/10/2014 12:45

Lweji I agree completely, that's what I was trying to say thank you. And therefore in my view , trying to make rape with aggravating factors equal to rape without, is minimising the more serious offence.

Lweji · 14/10/2014 12:45

What Judy said (checked earlier) was that the victim had had too much to drink (!) and there wasn't any actual bodily harm.

KoalaKoo · 14/10/2014 12:46

Yonic yes there are different kinds of theft in UK law

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 12:50

Yes, there are different charges of theft (though I don't think my example above would give rise a different charge for the theft portion?)

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 12:52

"trying to make rape with aggravating factors equal to rape without, is minimising the more serious offence"

But in practice this isn't true. What happens is that the very serious offence of rape is seen as not serious UNLESS there are aggravating factors.

KoalaKoo · 14/10/2014 13:24

Well this is what needs to change then.

zippey · 14/10/2014 13:41

I think this is what Prof Richard Dawkins was trying to say.

OP you probably need to apologise to your husband for poo-pooing his point of view. In essence, rape can mean different things to different people. Even the court systems allow for variable sentencing depending on the circumstances of the rape.

You are both right, and your husband is allowed his opinion on this without you getting angry.

MiddletonPink · 14/10/2014 13:43

Yonic - I'm guessing that he meant there are different situations where women are raped? Some by a stranger and can be extremely violent and even lead to her death and some where the woman may know the rapist, a friend, work colleague, partner.

Of course I'm guessing that he meant that. I don't know. And as I said rape is rape.

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 13:46

Agree but don't think it changes with your approach.

Sometimes wonder if we'd be better classing rape as a "grade 1 sexual assault" or similar to remind people what they are really saying.

YonicScrewdriver · 14/10/2014 13:48

I think we broadly agree,Middleton, it's just that no other crimes that I can think of really get talked about in that way.

MiddletonPink · 16/10/2014 08:17

Does anybody else wonder why the other footballer, got off with this but Evans was charged?

EmilyGilmore · 16/10/2014 08:26

There is CCTV footage of her walking into the hotel with him (the other guy) and the jury decided consent could reasonably be assumed ie.going back to a hotel room with a guy you just met in a club suggests you expect things to go that way.

Ched Evans arrived in a taxi half an hour later (after his friend texted him saying "I've got a bird") and apparently the other guy said "Can my mate join in?" to which they said she agreed but the prosecution insisted she was so drunk she couldn't have given consent.

EmilyGilmore · 16/10/2014 08:30

I personally think this case would make an excellent lesson in schools to ram home the message to young boys that you do not have sex with a very drunk women because she is not in a fit state to give consent and you may find yourself in prison for rape and your life ruined.

YonicScrewdriver · 16/10/2014 08:31

Middleton, in my view, the woman was raped by the other man too, and/or he could have been charged with conspiracy to rape (I think) as he effectively arranged for Evans to rape her.

However, I do see the circumstances were clearer wrt Evans so when Evans-apologists (not you, MP!) say Evans wasn't guilty by virtue of other bloke being not guilty, they are talking crap.

YonicScrewdriver · 16/10/2014 08:34

"you may find yourself in prison for rape and your life ruined."

Yes, if you put your penis inside a woman who does not consent, whether that is because she says or shows you no, is asleep, drunk, drugged or otherwise without capacity to consent, you may find yourself in prison for rape, because you raped her. And if you rape a woman, you may well ruin her life.

Despite jail, Ched Evans the rapist seems to have less of a ruined life than his victim, don't you think?