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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

DP and his job situation...I think I might kill him

231 replies

Eastie77 · 07/10/2014 18:13

Thought about a NC as I have complained about DP in the past and received a lot of useful advice. I have taken it on board. But this is a new issue.

I need help managing DP and getting him to take this (un)employment situation seriously.

The background is he is from Southern Europe, an area of high unemployment where a lot of young people do not have their first real job until they are mid-20s. He has never quite understood the working culture in the UK. He tells me that the fact that I had a job working PT when I was 17 is tantamount to child abuse and what a pity I missed out on the lovely childhood he had spending every day on the beach. Confused

So: he was suspended from his job on full pay in June. This wasn't totally unexpected as there had been ongoing issues with his performance for over a year and he had in fact been advised by a manager last year that he was considered incompetent and should look for another job. The grounds for his suspension were numerous as there were several complaints from one of his clients about the quality of his work. He suspension lasted around 3 months (long investigation) and during this time, despite knowing he would likely end up getting the sack, he did zero to find a new job. This was because he'd had enough of working for 'the man' and said if he was sacked he would take his employer to court and win a massive pay out. Cloud cuckoo land.

He was dismissed, as expected, and after taking legal advice he finally accepted the mega payout was not going to materialise and he would have to look for a new job. He then VERY reluctantly produced an atrocious CV which he haphazardly sent to a few agencies. When none of the agencies replied he said with barely concealed glee "well, that's a pity but at least I can look after DD on Fridays (our CM only works Mon-Thurs so we had previoulsy had to juggle her childcare arrangements on that day). He completely missed the point that we NEED 2 incomes to stay afloat.

I decided to re-do the CV for him. It was like getting blood out of stone just to get basic information such as his education and list of his responsibilities in his previous jobs etc. He was irritated and annoyed when I asked him a few basic questions. In short, I spent an entire day reworking the CV, creating a LinkedIn profile (of course he's 'never heard of LinkedIn') and sending off applications while he watched TV. He also decided that it was an optimal time to pursue his interest in alternative health remedies and signed up to an expensive part time distance course. I wouldn't have bothered making all this effort but as said we need his income.

After reworking the CV he was invited to about 8 interviews in the space of just 2 weeks and was offered a job last month. When he received the offer he was sullen and downcast as going back into the workforce would be a 'nightmare' and he would once again be caught up in the capitalist rat-race working like a slave etc. Hmm

Just to re-iterate he spent June, July and August at home relaxing while I worked FT and DD was at the childminder. We also have a cleaner so he doesn't do much housework either.

After 3 days in the new job he came home and complained that he was being worked too hard and asked to do dangerous jobs (he works in building maintenance). These were the same complaints he had about the job he was sacked from and from what I can gather he considers being asked to climb a ladder 'dangerous'. Finally he said he'd have to get a new job as he hated this new one so much. He arranged interviews via a few agencies. While I would ordinarily have been pleased with him taking some initiative, the problem was he taking time off his new job to attend the interviews as he apparently couldn't arrange them before or after work.

In the space of 3 weeks he took the equivalent of 5 or 6 days off to go to these interviews. Eventually his new manager (who works from a different location) called him at home one day to discuss his concerns over DP's attendance, timekeeping and general attitude. The new manager actually seemed to really like DP and said that he wanted to find a compromise to keep him happy. He therefore proposed a new, mobile role which would involve DP driving to different sites but the jobs he'd be carrying out would be more in keeping with the kind of things he wanted to do rather than the 'dangerous' tasks he was performing. DP's reponse? "Thanks but I don't like driving around too much as I get dizzy." I don't know if this is true or not, he has never mentioned dizziness before when driving.Hmm

The manager persuaded DP to nevertheless try the new role and a brand new van was delivered to our flat a couple of days later which DP was to use to drive to carry out his jobs. The first job he was assigned was at an airport about 1 hr drive from our place. The hours were 8am-5pm. DP woke up on the day and declared that he would not drive to the airport as he did not have a Satnav and was not sure how to get there. I offered him the use of one of Smartphones which has a map facility (I basically use it as a Sat Nav) and he said no as he is not good with technology. He therefore took the train and arrived 1.5 hours late.

On day 2 he took the train again and then took the afternoon off to attend yet another job interview.

On day 3 he once again refused to drive so arrived late and then left the airport site at 3pm without telling anyone as "it takes me 2 hours to get home so if I leave at 5pm I won't get home until 7pm and I am not paid from 5pm-7pm".

On day 4 I arrived home to find out he had been sacked. He had evidently exhausted the goodwill of even the manager who had tried to help him. Angry

So here we are. He has not heard back from any of the interviews he attended so he has basically probably lost this job for nothing. He is TOTALLY unconcerned and said is 'relishing' the time off so that he can catch up with his studies and spend quality time with DD. When I ask how he proposes we pay our bills at the end of this month, and indeed how he intends to pay for the course which has a monthly fee of £300, he tutted and replied "They can't take what we don't have. If I'm chucked off the course for non-payment I will enrol again next month. Tell the childminder we will have to reduce DD's hours. You need to learn to relax" And then he offered me a homeopathic remedy to calm me down.

I feel like I need an intervention because I have a young child and so do not want to end up in jail but I feel like I might want to kill him. But maybe I do need to breathe and relax. I'm hoping one of the multiple interviews turns into a job offer. I just cannot take the laid back 'que sera, sera' attitude.

Thank you if you've got this far. No-one needs to reply really. I just needed to get this off my chest and feel so much better now I've written it all down.
Off to drink some Wine
Eastie

OP posts:
PotsAndCambert · 08/10/2014 12:49

And a nutritionist isn't a dietician. Their remit us comeyely different.
Having said that, you have lots of courses with very different levels. If it's to do a course with no real qualification at the end apart from 'did nutrition course at XXX' after 3 weekends, maybe not. If the course s at master degre level and recognised by a university, why not?

Quitelikely · 08/10/2014 13:03

I think the op is just going through a process we all do when a relationship is falling to its knees. She knows there are issues but she has a child and she is trying to find a solution.

Soon, like where most of us have been, she will realise that there are no solutions because of different mindsets, work ethics and values.

Then she will retreat and eventually end it. But it takes time to come to that point. And crushes your heart/dreams. Sometimes people don't want to let go until they absolutely have to. That is what I think will happen here.

I don't think it's totally over yet but in a year or two it most likely will be.

scatteroflight · 08/10/2014 13:05

OP I work in London in the same industry as you. I am surrounded by educated, intelligent, interesting men with ambition and drive. Men who also have families and who see it as part of the every day responsibilities to take care of their children. I cannot imagine what has brought you so low as to believe that a man who works in building maintenance, refuses to climb a ladder, won't write a CV, and who leaves work 2 hours early because he isn't paid for his commute, is actually worthy of your time. This is without even considering what sort of feckless example he is giving your daughter.

Get rid of this absolute cock lodger and raise your sights. I would rather be alone than leeched off in this way. I would not share my home with someone so fundamentally ideologically opposed to the value of hard work and contributing to the overall happiness of my family.

Clarabell33 · 08/10/2014 13:32

OP, I'd be curious to see what his reaction would be if you came home and told him you've been suspended without pay due to poor performance (caused by the stress he's causing you), or were being made redundant, or fired, taking unpaid leave due to stress, or whatever, something that would mean your income abruptly ceases. It would be really interesting to see what his suggestions for you as a family would be - would he be on at you to rush out and get another job, would he have a go at you for failing to provide for the family, or would he step up and take the nearest available job just to keep funds coming in?

I'm not necessarily suggesting you lie to him to see what his reaction would be (although I'd be bloody tempted) but may be worth thinking about it, or even talking to him about these potential scenarios, which are all too real for some people. Basically, does he see you as the one who must work while it's optional for him, or is it that he thinks your family can cope on a single income, so while you're bringing that in, he doesn't have to, but if you stopped for whatever reason, he would step up... IYSWIM.

Eastie77 · 08/10/2014 14:42

Cloudhowe63 – your comments are not harsh at all and am glad you resolved your situation.

PotsAndCambert

  1. Yes, his take home pay was about £1700 from which £234 was deducted for the childcare vouchers. It was above the cost of childcare
  2. I think a mixture of both. He doesn’t particularly enjoy the rough and tumble of some aspects of building services. He is very precious and every time he got a slight injury (injury to his finger, dust going in his eye) there was drama. He did not get on with his colleagues. I posted about this previously, he didn’t want to socialise with them after work as he doesn’t drink and the whole post-work pub thing was a powerful bonding mechanism so he was left out. His choice.
  3. He is specialising in nutrition + homeopathy. He wants to be a nutritionist with an emphasis on alternative health. He is studying at a specialist college of naturopathy in London.
  4. Nope, not dismissive of his studies at all. He could be studying bee-keeping for all I care. I just want him to step up work-wise.

To answer other questions..what do I like about him? He is kind, very thoughtful, a loving dad..I can see readers rolling their eyes and saying this doesn’t compensate for his laziness now. I understand that. I’m just explaining why we’ve stayed together. If he was unpleasant, violent, terrible father etc then we wouldn’t have lasted. When he worked he contributed financially 100% without fail.

As for the gold-digging comments..well, to be honest in the time we have been together I don’t think he has purchased one item of clothing or any kind of luxury item for himself and he has certainly never asked me to buy him anything or asked for money. He is probably the least materialistic person I know. He doesn’t spend money on himself (apart from food shopping) and probably goes out with friends once every 3 months or so. His idea of a good night is watching a DVD with a pizza and glass of coke as he doesn’t drink either. But I totally agreee he is basically freeloading right now in the sense that he is cannot contributing financially.

Scatteroflight: I really take your point. I met DP when I was in slight panic mode about my biological clock. I work long hours here in media land and only socialised with advertising types who I was not attracted to. I was very much swept up in DP’s ‘alternative lifestyle’ vision whilst never actually planning to live that way myself. He was and still can be charming, really funny and kind and gracious. It’s been a steep learning curve in terms of learning about his faults. But this is what happens when you rush into things. Funnily enough he has a degree from a top university and speaks 3 languages. He could probably do an office job but he says it would be soul destroying. He is of course above office life.

Clarabell33: if I lost my job he wouldn’t have a go at me at all. I think he would actually be quite supportive but he would have no viable suggestion as to how we move forward. He would probably suggest we just leave the flat and go and live abroad.

Anyway my plan of action:

I will calmly re-explain this evening that we cannot manage on my salary alone if we keep DD in childcare and I continue to save. I do not want to spend every penny of my income on keeping us afloat. When he suggests getting rid of CM I will explain I intend to keep her as I do not want him to look after DD FT. I know he will take care of her but he will not provide her with what I consider to be appropriate levels of stimulation and activities. He will take her to park for hours every day and that will be about it. The option of me working + him staying at home as SAHD is not going to happen. Therefore there are 2 options for him.

a) He gets a job. Deadline is end of this month. There are no shortage of vacancies where we live. We are a 10 min bus ride from Central London and if we really wanted to he could probably get a job within a couple of weeks.

b) If the above does not happen I have a strategy which might enable me to keep DD at CM and continue saving so I can fulfil my dream of moving to a bigger property. I will move in with my parents who live nearby and rent out the flat. It is in a prime location, near the City etc. There is obviously no room for DP at my parents (well there is in theory, they live alone in a 4 bed) but he will not be coming with us. It will kill me to live with them but I will be able to save a huge chunk of my salary each month. Plus they spend around 6 months of the year in the West Indies so it might be bearable.

That will be the end of the discussion.

Long term future? If this shocks him into cleaning up his act then we will see. If there is sulking, excuses etc then plan B comes into play.

Thanks for all comments.

OP posts:
Thurlow · 08/10/2014 14:49

That sounds like a good plan, Eastie. It must be incredibly hard but yes, he needs to understand that in a partnership, in a family, it's not on for one party to just sit around doing very little without contributing in some way to the family. Of course he can study if you can get by on one income - but you'd expect anyone reasonable to also be doing the majority of the housework etc at the same time. And being open and appreciative of what is happening, and have fixed plans for where this study will take them.

The only bit I'd counsel about is he might push hard on the being a SAHD, and then turn your refusal to take your DD out of the CM into your refusing to let him become an actual SAHD. Fwiw I fully agree with your decision not to take your DD out of the CM and let him be a SAHD, as I think being a SAHP is something you have to throw yourself into, not just because it suddenly appears as the least worst option.

Good luck. Stay strong.

LoisPuddingLane · 08/10/2014 14:54

He could probably do an office job but he says it would be soul destroying. He is of course above office life.

You lost me at this. He's been a little diva, basically. Office jobs are not soul-destroying. I have a soul - look! And it's not destroyed. Despite the fact I'm a bit of a precious creative type (who never creates much).

To use a very old expression - you are making a rod for your own back. Above office life, my arse.

hellsbellsmelons · 08/10/2014 14:58

Sounds like a good plan.
As long as you do follow through!
Good luck.

MissSusanStoHelit · 08/10/2014 15:12

Another one wishing you luck, OP!

WorkingBling · 08/10/2014 15:17

Just a thought - you agree that he is a good dad etc just not necessarily going to be doing the kinds of stimulating activities you view as important. Is there a compromise solution here where she goes to childminder parttime? Mornings only or a set number of days? That way you reduce your childcare fees, but he still has to step up?

Roussette · 08/10/2014 15:42

Eastie... I have a friend who many moons ago met someone just like your partner. I cannot get over the similarities. She fell in love with his 'free spirit' and the way he looked at life and how refreshing and alternative he was, she was never one to conform and she had met her soulmate.

She married him and at that point he decided he didn't actually like work, never had done and so stopped doing it and found every excuse under the sun not to. She was a career girl and he spotted that in her. Yes, he looked after the kids on occasion and was brilliant with them but she was the driving force in the marriage and she escalated up her career and bankrolled their life. However, she spent all her married life pleading, cajoling, begging him to find a job so she could ease off climbing the greasy pole. But no, he didn't. Nothing was right for him, he wanted to be his own boss, he didn't like people telling him what to do, he didn't like office work blah blah blah.

25 years this went on until he became incapable of work because of health problems. No amount of being good with the kids or not mistreating her makes up for the fact that he never pulled his weight and sat on his arse and let her work her fingers to the bone. 'Free spirits' never ever change - your partner is not going to find a work ethic from nowhere, it isn't in him.

DonkeysDontRideBicycles · 08/10/2014 15:43

Oh, the DP who gets angry for an unspecified reason and subjects you to silent treatment for days? He eventually belligerently identifies the issue, stays angry until you cave and do what he wants and then cheers up.

I think after a long summer off he has decided being a SAHD rather suits him and while making the least possible effort to find a new job will settle down and do what he wants.

Twinklestein · 08/10/2014 15:51

With a degree and 3 languages - how did he end up in the building trade?
He sounds eminently unsuited to it from all angles.

To train properly as a nutritionist/homeopath will take some time and my concern is that even if he finished the training a) is there are huge demand for those services? (there's quite a lot of alternative practitioners around) & b) he will be effectively self-employed - not a good scenario for someone who's lazy. He would be responsible for drumming up his work, and from what you say here he may shrug and say he can't find any.

Realistically I think you're right to plan your exit now.

myfurbyisalive · 08/10/2014 16:18

I don't know why I am writing this as I assume it will fall on deaf ears but I shall.

I have lived and worked with Italians for years. Some of my closest friends are Italians. I have not know one who got their first job at 25. Nearly all started working at 16/17 like us in the UK.

It's nothing to do with not working being 'the culture' or whatever bollocks your DP tells you. It's everything to do with his lazy, slacker personality having always been a part of him, and is unlikely to change.

AnyFucker · 08/10/2014 16:31

He was and still can be charming, really funny and kind and gracious.

Your description of him on other threads bears no resemblance to that man at all.

Joysmum · 08/10/2014 16:40

Just a thought...

I wonder if much of his attitude comes from the fact he's Italian. They have much more stringent employment laws there which are very much stacked in favour of the employee. What seems like his sense of entitlement here, is actually par for the course over there.

LIZS · 08/10/2014 16:47

but surely if he quakes at the sight of a ladder or having to drive a van the building trade is not for him . Does he not realise that it is unacceptable to walk out during his contracted hours without a good reason Confused What does he plan to do with his alternative therapy qualification ? Is he actually attending the course, submitting the work and so on. That area of work is relatively unregulated , is the qualification really going to be worth the angst. If he wants to be self employed he'd need to work hard - and have funds behind him - to establish himself.

lalalonglegs · 08/10/2014 16:53

I think you are wrong about the Italian employment scenario, Joysmum. Although there may be legislation favouring employee rights, employers ride roughshod over them every day in ways that would make British people reach for the smelling salts (try asking your average Italian woman about maternity rights, for example). Most Italians are (a) incredibly relieved if they are able to find a "permanent" job - ie one that is not arranged on a very casual, no-benefits basis (b) incredibly suspicious of their employers because they feel their work situation is so precarious. I think (b) may explain some of the OP's partner's attitude - I don't know a single Italian (and my family is Italian so I know a lot) who respects and trusts their boss and doesn't feel exploited.

Twinklestein · 08/10/2014 17:29

I think its more likely to be down to being spoilt by mama.

The average age for Italian men to leave home is 36.

youmedancing · 08/10/2014 17:34

As unrealistic as DP is I find it hard to be angry with him. Although from your point of view he was working and now he's not and that's a fundamental change, you also mentioned that you liked the way he looked at stuff and his unmaterialistic way so it's not like he just burned his suits and decided to lay off the coke and champagne for a bit. Wildly irresponsible but surely not unforeseen. I just think with your differing views on life and the relative importance of things you are doomed to make each other unhappy. It's actually quite heartwarming that you both seem to think you can either change each other or find a compromise that'll work. I don't think it will.

One other, unrelated point: he's studying some kind of homeonutrition. You also mentioned beekeeping as similar but inferior. They're wildly different in many ways but mainly that beekeeping is useful.

QuintessentiallyQS · 08/10/2014 17:40

Sounds like a good plan. Good luck!

CadmiumRed · 08/10/2014 17:58

OK, to give him somehting of the benefit of the doubt, it is obvious that he is just not intrested in the building trade stuff. And he doesn't sound at all suited, either.

Is there some career guidance that could help him? Fihd a role that is more suited to his good degree, three language and feels mor alternative or social enterprisey?

Has he researched this nutritional stuff and looked at the kinds of roles available and checked that this course will actually be helpful?

If he takes a serious attempt at a new start on a new carer path AND takes on some of the cleaning and childcare, and does it all with some vim and purpose, I could forgive him, perhaps. Although the offer of the homeopathic remedy after he got sacked could have been a step too far.

You don't sound as if you can afford two kids in childcare on one income, so give him an ultimatum and take no risks.

minkah · 08/10/2014 18:25

I do agree he needs some career counselling, or assessment to help him find his way forward in the world of work. Sounds as though he wants to be self employed.

If your parents house is empty for half the year, Eastie, and you can rent out a flat you own, easily, for a decent rental, then you are in a very strong position for making great strides with your savings. I'm glad you have that security.

If you love your partner and want to share your life with him, I hope this period stabilises for you both. I have a gf with an Italian partner who is very entitled and flaky about work, drives her crazy, she has had to be the breadwinner, very taxing lifestyle as he's also an indulgent but not constructive practical parent. But of a child, really, albeit a charming one.

Joysmum · 08/10/2014 18:32

I don't think I am lalalonglegs (great name btw!).

I have experience of this and the OP's DH is not a woman needing maternity rights.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Smile

FrontForward · 08/10/2014 18:55

It sounds to me like you essentially have different outlooks, ambitions etc in life. My concern would be that you make decisions which seriously compromise your future. You are at the moment taking the responsible role and it's easy to lose sight of the fact it's not just your job!

Regarding my other comments about role reversal. I didn't actually support a particular view on that just pointed out that there are threads with a gender reversal with outrage when a man suggests a mother goes out to work. I was on one recently and it was 50/50 with posters saying it's unreasonable to expect the bloke to be sole wage earner and posters saying how disgraceful it was to expect a mother to leave her children with childminders and work. This mother had a cleaner and a mother's helper (her phrase not mine).