feelings on porn

[lollypop77]

Just wanted other peoples opinions on if they are ok with there partners/husbands watching porn regular ..do you get worried or wonder why they have the need to ??

I apologise for that.

SBGA! I'm a 'lady'!!

But I do know men who feel the same way as me about porn.

I said "live a little" and "have some fun" (rather cheekily for which I apologise). But I did not encourage Fairnuff to watch porn. You and others should only do what you want to do and I would protect this right for porn watchers too ( as long as it's legal, consensual, non-abusive etc)

I am so sorry!!!!!

SBGA, that's funny!

How do you know its legal, consensual and non-abusive?

It turns out even Sylvie kristel who played Emmanuelle had a very turbulent mixed up life!...Once you know this, its very odd to just ignore it and just 'have fun'.

And again, Do you genuinely think the porn industry, and supporting/buying into it, is having a positive effect on society?

I said "live a little" and "have some fun" (rather cheekily for which I apologise) Quite, and this point is tired. It assumes that anti-porn means anti-sex. Besides, a lot of porn is about violence, humiliation and pushing boundaries (physical, emotional etc) and not sex.

SBGA I think it's worth watching some documentaries. Channel 4 have Date My Pornstar which is fairly tame and from a man's point of view. The previously mentioned Hardcore is not to be watched lightly.

Real, actual human beings. Being raped and abused. But still, you don't have the courage of your convictions to admit you like watching this

Actually I do not like watching this and never have.

You do, because you enjoy watching porn. And, as has been explained, you cannot know if the women in it consented. Even so, you have stated that you will continue to enjoy this.

it would be pretty difficult to condemn anything and everything that falls into that definition - otherwise we'd be back to covering up Greek and Roman statues and destroying the carvings on ancient Hindu temples

Again, and like animation, not real people. Stone is not human flesh. Cartoons are not human beings.

I don't really believe that people on this thread can't understand the difference. I think, again, it's a way of trying to justify to themselves that it's ok to get turned on by watching real women being abused.

Just that you're ready to admit it in actual words yet. That's ok, though, once you are aware that you are watching abuse, you can't 'unlearn' it and, eventually you won't find it such a turn on (hopefully).

fairnuff ... actually I'm not trying to justify to myself that it's ok to get turned on by watching real women being abused.

I don't mind my husband watching the milder stuff in moderation, no, usual proviso about trying to make sure it's ethical.

But your sentance says explicitly that 'it's ok to get turned on by watchign real women being abused".

first off, that implies that all porn is visually about coercion/abuse. And it's not. It comes in a wide variety of flavours.

Secondly, again you're implying that all women who work in the porn industry and the grey areas around it of home-made and uploaded porn are abused. Again, it's broad brush strokes and I don't think it's always the case.

I guess I dislike and find myself alienated by someone saying that if you watch any porn, then you're enjoying watching rape, you've got a guilty conscience and you're trying to justify it.

It just isn't the case that if you watch any porn you're enjoying watchign rape, that I've got a guilty conscience or that I'm trying to justify it.

first off, that implies that all porn is visually about coercion/abuse

No, I'm not in anyway implying that all porn is visually about coercion/abuse. Quite the opposite in fact. I have stated that some women are abused and, when you watch porn, you can't tell if she has consented or not.

Visually, it might look like she is a consenting wife who has also consented to share the home made video on the internet, for example. But you have know way of knowing that a) she consented to sex and b) she consented to uploading it.

Secondly, again you're implying that all women who work in the porn industry and the grey areas around it of home-made and uploaded porn are abused.

Again, no-where have I said or implied that all women in porn are abused. Quite the opposite, I have explicitly stated that some women are abused/raped. But lets say you fancy getting yourself all hot under the collar and want to watch a bit of 'fun' porn to help you. The woman turning you on might not have consented. You have no way of knowing.

So if you still want to go ahead and watch it for your own sexual pleasure, then, yes, you are ok with watching women being abused. If that's where you stand, why not just admit it, why try to talk all around it without addressing the actual point?

The "You just don't know" argument has been made (A LOT). I gave acknowledged it but IS unreasonable to say therefore that anyone watching ANY porn gets turned on by the abuse of women. I certainly don't.

So we've had the name calling, the judgements, the repeated claims but do you (Fairnuff, JFR, Vivacio, JTRB ) have any PROPOSALS ?

I totally agree that the "industry" does harm. The same is also true of alcohol, tobacco, gambling and drugs (both illicit and prescription).

As individuals you have every right to choose abstinence and even to advocate it to others.

But arguing from the extremes (equivalent of saying "If you drink the occasional bottle of wine, you condone the deaths of innocents through alcoholism and drunk driving") is simply not true and more than a little insulting.

I have already proposed that you stop watching porn, but that seems to be too hard for you.

You insist that you want to continue getting turned on by watching women who may/may not be being abused. It's clear that you don't actually care whether or not she consented.

'Stop watching porn' isn't a valid solution, though. Prohibition doesn't work and never has done. 'Start looking for ethical porn' is a much better idea. Supporting ethical porn will lead to its growth. When an industry, any industry, has a problem with unethical production processes, people producing an ethical/safe equivalent need customer backing along with a wider public awareness and rejection of the illegal/unsafe/unethcial stuff.

Fairnuff
I think you'll find that in all of my posts I have said legal, consensual, non abusive. I get the "But you just don't know" argument but what then would you propose as a satisfactory proof of consent?

You have every right to propose abstinence to me and others. I just don't think it'll make a lot of difference.

But good luck to you if you think calling people supporters of rape and abuse is a winning campaign strategy.

well fairnuff if you don't want to be thought to be making blanket statements you'd better start qualifying statements that you make like ^Real, actual human beings. Being raped and abused. But still, you don't have the courage of your convictions to admit you like watching this

Actually I do not like watching this and never have.

You do, because you enjoy watching porn.^

Anyway you can and will go right on ahead thinking that I'm ok with women being abused.

Just as you're okay with women being abused ... Unless you're active in the anti porn lobby yourself donating your time or your money. Otherwise it's all just hot air. You're tolerating it because you're not doing something about it.

In the end though, this thread has made me think about the whole thing a bit more and my own stance towards it and I've brought it up with my husband and we've discussed it and I think he'll make more efforts to source ethical porn on the occasions he watches it. Some people have written some thought provoking posts, if you ignore the extremists at either end of the debate.

I think you'll find that in all of my posts I have said legal, consensual, non abusive. I get the "But you just don't know" argument but what then would you propose as a satisfactory proof of consent?

Saying legal, consensual, non abusive is pointless because you don't know that there is consent. You say you get this but you still seem to think you can watch porn and somehow just 'know' that the women consented. You can't know.

Do you, or do you not understand that when you watch porn you, personally, may be watching a woman who has not consented to sex and is therefore being raped, even when it looks like she has consented?

SGB I wouldn't want to use porn myself, but I'm socially liberal so I would advocate the use of a kite mark for ethical, responsible porn and just accept that some of the scenarios portrayed would be very distasteful to me (I don't know, er, thinking of a recent documentary, the portrayal of a mother and daughter having sex).

It really sounds like you're trying to box people into a corner where you can say triumphantly "you condone rape and abuse if you watch any porn!" fairenuff

It's pretty offputting as arguments go. It's not accurate for a start; and secondly you can sit on that rather tenuous moral high horse looking down on others but it still isn't going to make any difference whatsoever to their actions. Quite the opposite.

It really sounds like you're trying to box people into a corner where you can say triumphantly "you condone rape and abuse if you watch any porn!" fairenuff

I do agree that you condone rape and abuse if you watch porn.

I think everyone agrees that it's generally impossible to know whether or not the women have consented, so if you watch porn you might be watching rape/abuse.

Those who enjoy porn cannot deny that you might be enjoying watching rape. It's very easy not to watch porn at all, so it is a personal choice whether or not to risk watching rape.

It's a risk I, and many other people both male and female, are not prepared to take. It takes absolutely no sacrifice to not watch porn.

My point is that if you want to watch it, at least be honest about what you are doing, admit it might be rape and admit that you don't care. You get a sexual thrill from watching it and if it's rape, so what, it still gives you a sexual thrill.

I think if you hold that position, then by the same argument you are just as directly condoning it because you're not doing anything against it. Unless you actually are donating time or money into the organisations against it.

Really though I think it's actually pretty silly to say you're condoning rape and abuse if you watch porn, as long as you've done what you can to be sure that it's been produced by two genuinely consenting adults and uploaded by permission.

Fairnuff - I don't see you advocating a "ban" on porn. Fair enough.

So your main proposal is abstinence for all on the grounds of "Do you, or do you not understand that when you watch porn you, personally, may be watching a woman who has not consented to sex and is therefore being raped, even when it looks like she has consented?"

To mitigate this risk, what would you propose as a legitimate expression of consent?

I have found, in the past (and I have been having this debate, in various forms, for twenty fucking years) that many, though not all, opponents of porn are less concerned with the abuse of some performers than they are with imposing their own restrictive views of sexual behaviour on other people.
It's perfectly reasonable to be concerned about the abuse of porn performers. It's entirely wrong that anyone should be forced to perform in porn, or be misled about what is going to happen on a shoot, or have their fee reduced or refused, or their performance sold/distributed without their consent.
However, the existence of ethical porn (made with performers who are consenting and who are treated fairly) doesn't please these people. They then move on to complaining that the 'messages' in porn are bad and wrong. They dislike or disapprove of role play, some sex acts, some types of fetishized clothing, and seem to think that no one would willingly engage with these things and that people watching others engage with these things will somehow be compelled to do the same themselves.

Finally, there's their insistence that viewing porn 'damages relationships'. This is where their deeply normative viewpoint comes across. It is not compulsory to engage in longterm relationships, or monogamous ones. Many people don't want to. Many people don't actually want to have sex with a physical partner at all. There is nothing wrong with this.

sgb have you any particular recommendations for more ethically produced sites?

I get the feeling too that quite a few anti-porn people are anti-anything-but-their-own-version-of-sexual-mores.

Having said that, I can see that the coercive acts portrayed kind of normalise them, so I'm against them.

I would agree with a lot of what you say SGB (and I am anti-porn). The only bit I disagree with is that I am convinced by there being evidence that watching porn effects men and women, especially young men and women, in a negative way.