Sister or partner. Who is behind her unpleasant behaviour to me. + red flag query

[unchangedname]

Hi guys.

Sorry I started writing this about red flags but it has become about my relationship with my sister, and whether she is instigating her attitude towards me (and my parents) or whether it is indeed her partner.

Here are my old threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2169105-Is-generally-not-believing-always-double-checking-a-red-flag

A bit more background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2153440-Dont-get-on-with-future-BIL-Will-it-get-better

(Please don't reply to the latter thread though as I'm hoping it will stay buried due to some identifying details! I think traffic is higher in chat and am paranoid )

What might be a red flag sometimes only occurs to me days or even weeks later.

The latest that I would like some advice on is that they have moved into new rental accommodation for 6 months while their house purchase is going through. They moved about a month ago.

My sister is refusing to give us the landline number. This is very out of character for the old sister I used to know.

Basically, whenever he answered the phone to us in the old house it was a 'oh, you again' tone. From my sister, if we called during dinner (which was not at a fixed time so we weren't to know) we would get summarily and crossly chastised and rung off. If we accidentally called during their favourite TV show she would either answer angrily or they would simply not answer the phone.
[Old sister pre-relationship if rung during her dinner would happily have a quick chat, or very civilly we'd arrange to chat later, or just natter while she ate. Also I would always ring her landline and she would ring mine and there were no problems].

We have all been trained off the landline now and only call her mobile as a result.

She texted the new address. I replied asking for the landline and received no reply. I've never not received a text reply from her, ever. A few days later I texted to ask again and nothing. When we next spoke I asked for the landline and she said 'we've decided not to give it to anyone'. When pressed for a reason, she said 'it came free with the broadband and we didn't really want it'. I said I thought it would be good if we had it for safety reasons - we would only call it if we couldn't reach them by mobile for an alarming amount of time. She came up with a number of reasons which one by one she admitted weren't valid, and eventually got in a huff with me so I dropped it.

After an incident where she called as I was serving a dinner that I'd been cooking for my parents for 2.5h, about a pretty trivial organisational matter, and called back four times in immediate succession, which called each of us away from the table in turn for 5-10 minutes at a time, then chastised me in an email for being mean in not wanting to sort it out there and then, I was minded of what happens when we call her when they are eating dinner.

I am now confused as to whether, actually, her dislike and disrespect of me is authored by him or her. As I say in my long thread, her sense of humour became very cruel and dismissive when they got together romantically, and she lets him act however he wants around us, and has got to taking on his criticisms of us as her own, starting to corner me about things I do wrong or unlikeable traits I have, or my bad taste in TV, or how shallow and materialistic I am, or whatever. I am trying to untangle whether she has always basically looked down on us (me and my parents) a bit and his presence just sharpens it, or whether he is the author. I don't know anymore.

Our whole lives, she has pretty much made out she is the saviour sister that has put up with me, and that I have consistently been a needy, selfish, emotionally bloodsucking, errant person. I have consistently been told for the past 15 years (probably implied further back than that, as well) that I do nothing for her, am incredibly selfish and self centred, am a let-down and a worry, untrustworthy, irresponsible, self-centred etc.
She treats me more like a pet that can be wheeled out for amusement, as I suppose I am quite eccentric, a bit young-at-heart, used to have an interesting/unusual career and lead a slightly odd life. This makes me a good auntie as I can be very silly with her baby and possibly a good topic of conversation with her friends? ...I have no idea what she gets out of having me around when I reflect on how she treats me.

In a personal review of my life over the past week, I have realised she is the only one who has really had this message towards/about me and I never thought to question it.

Her partner treats me like this but his style is different - eye-rolling and passive aggressive. She is direct and rude, or analyses me under the guise of psychology, telling me my faults: 'it's actually really sad, because you're so selfish you can't see that...' 'i'm really sad, because I feel like I can't trust you to be there for me... ' etc. This latter is because six years ago she had(?) to go to the pub for drinks with a group of people, one of which was the best friend of a man she had been dating for a few months, and wanted me to go with her for emotional support. I was in a pretty bad place, hadn't left my house for months, but even so would have gone had I realised what a big deal it was to her and that it'd be brought up every few months for the next several years ('see, I know I can't rely on you, and that makes me sad...')

The result is I can never do enough for her. Nothing I do is good enough, no amount of gestures can convince her that I am not terminally selfish, I am scared to talk to her in case I 'slip up' and 'reveal my selfishness' - accused of turning the conversation back to me, not asking about her enough. (As per my long thread, I looked after the baby day and night for four days and got accused of being 'the most selfish person in the world', and told I was only looking after him because I wanted to). I have just realised it and I am really tired of it.

I will say I have massively moved on from my old thread - I can't believe how unsure of myself I was at the start. Rereading it is what made me start to question the dynamic with my sister.

The advice I received was like water in a desert of confusion, so as I cannot discuss this with anyone in real life, nor seem to get any perspective no matter how hard I try and think it though, I would appreciate any other points of view, even if I have to be told off or visit my own culpability in this situation.

I want to add that she skypes with the baby every day from her mobile. She instigates this.

Sorry it's all coming out now.

She has always pretty much ignored me when I ask her something or talk to her - she will just sit in the same room as me for hours on her iPhone or laptop reading the news, or very occasionally have an actual newspaper. I have to say her name several times before she acknowledges I've said anything, and even then it's an 'oh what is it' attitude.

Sometimes (very often) she will say after I've said her name a few times 'yeah?' and I will say something, and she will pause, still looking at her screen and say 'sorry, what? I completely missed that' with a little smirk.

If I ever show her something that is of interest to me it is a major sigh and normally some disparaging comment about how shallow my hobby is or an eye-roll about my enthusiasm.

Yep, this has been going on for as long as I can remember.

Agh I can't stop now.

I buy her Christmas and Birthday presents every year certainly going back the past 10 years at least.

She got me one gift for my 21st birthday (in my early-mid 30s now). Since then I get birthday cards but that's it. Nothing at Christmas

I always rationalised this to myself as me being - absorbing some of her comments - 'materialistic' and showing my love with gifts, whereas she had a different style of love and showed it with 'caring' and 'concern', things by that point I believed I was not capable of supplying adequately to her

This was exploded on the first Christmas she was with her current partner for when 14 Amazon parcels arrived at our home (she was living somewhere random at the time so got them sent here) and she came home and individually wrapped each of these carefully chosen wide palette of gifts for her partner.

I did get my first Christmas present from her though that year. Still haven't received a birthday present three years later

Don't know if I'm seeing problems where there are none

Once on the phone to her - ?7 or 8 years ago - I was enthusiastic about a few things and changed topic two or three times possibly quite swiftly and she stopped me and said calmly - in a pretty patronising, Tony Blairish tone - 'you know, it's funny, but I only know one other person who talked like that - and, you know, they turned out to have bipolar disorder. I'm just saying'

For the record, I don't and have never had bipolar disorder, and would never judge anyone who does, but that comment has ever since made me monitor my conversational style with her and others!

I think you need to step back and have a good look at YOU. What is it within you that is so desperate for your sister's approval that you are prepared to be spoken to and treated like this?

Your sister sounds like a toxic user, and you would do well to reduce contact with her to a minimum.

She may be in an abusive relationship, but it may be that she is the abuser. You sound desperately needy with her and she takes advantage.

If you have the courage and wit to call her on her behaviour without her turning it around onto you and all your "faults" then do it. Otherwise, just practice some stock phrases - the MN "sorry that doesnt work for me", and "did you mean too be so rude?" and even a hearty laugh with "Are you on glue?" .

Stop running after her like a whipped puppy. Seek positive affirmation from people who matter to you and boost your self esteem. You are worth more that this.

I posted on one of your threads about the passive aggressiveness.

With all this further info...

I think she has chosen a partner that complements her style towards you which seems like she thinks she is the best sister and you need to compete for her attention. And when you don't perform to her liking, instead of telling her what a complete bitch she is, you just work harder for her attentions.

She sounds like and out and out unpleasant person. Are you brave enough to tell her?

Wow I have filled my own thread

While I am here, I have never been able to sort out if this was normal or not -

About 10 years ago when she was single she bought a house about 40 minutes from where I lived. I stopped in to see her frequently. I can't remember how it came about, but after living there for five years, she invited me to stay over. I did, and the next morning as she was leaving for work I told her I'd probably leave at about 3pm. She said no, she wanted me out then and there as she didn't want me in her house without her there (and this was not out of concern for my safety. The implication was that I could not be trusted, when pressed she said she wasn't sure why but the thought of me in her house made her uncomfortable). So I left at 8am and went home.

I was a bit surprised as she had had a fair number of visits from friends, who I know stayed for a few days at a time (including while she was out to work during the day).

Of course it was her house to do with as she wished.

You will have to take my word for the fact that am not a thief, I am a tidy person, not a drug user. I never stayed with her again in that house.

I think she is just downright a nasty old cowbag.

OP - you have a "kick me" sign on your bottom!

You keep going back for more and then wonder why she carries on treating you like this - what incentive does she have for change?

She sounds like a self-serving prize bitch!

Thank goodness you're finally seeing it. In my case, my parents were the ones kicking me and I kept going back for more. When I look back over my life and think about times I tried to please them (nothing did) I cringe at my "people-pleasing-self"

I ended up having a serious illness and they weren't there for me. When I got through my treatment I went to a counsellor and started the ball rolling for sorting out my feelings and actions towards them. It's been a long road but I'm now very low contact with my controlling DF (controlling DM died) and I'm in a much happier place. I keep him at arms length - barely phone him and rarely see him.

The therapy also enabled me to ditch my job (I was employed by a "friend" who sounds similar to your sister) the sad thing was, she KNEW what my parents were like and when I got away from their control, she tried to control me. I have not spoken to her since the day I walked away from the job.

Please consider some kind of suitable therapy to help you deal with her better. FWIW I don't think you sound selfish at all, you sound lovely

They both sound thoroughly unpleasant. Maybe put your energy and kindness into relationships with friends. You sound thoughtful looking after your niece and calling people. You may have other people in your life that may love to have a close relationship and reciprocate the thoughtfulness. Concentrate on these people.

Sorry cross posted - takes me a long time to word posts

That was a bit of a shock to read.
But I know it is true.

Things have got worse because my life circumstances have disintegrated over the past few years - I think her attitude, where before I had some internal resistance toward it, has attritionally worn me down.
I mentioned erosion of my self esteem. Yes, it's true.
Hopefully I am regrowing my backbone.
I can't believe how far I have come since my long thread just a few weeks ago, and even posting this thread I feel I am working towards getting some of the unquestioned internalised patterns out and with your help getting on my confidence-feet again.

The problems with standing up to her are twofold:

i) She is very, very quick and very articulate, and can unleash anything below the belt in an argument - everything is whipped back around to be my fault (selfish, blind to other's needs, everything I said above) - she has told me I have no friends and 'nobody likes you anyway' - so fast your head is spinning.
She weaves it so carefully you end up certain you have wronged her, that you are pathological, uncaring, etc. Does this with regularity to my parents too. No one in recorded history has ever 'won' an argument with her

The only time I was able to get any distance from it was logging the last argument on my long thread. (Plus her double standard with the dinner phone calls above). I couldn't believe she had turned minding the baby into the act of the most selfish person on earth. What I didn't write is that I ended up going to find her and giving her a hug and apologising. I don't know what for!! The whole episode was so bizarre, I realised she had done a number on me. I learnt the word 'gaslighting' on that thread and realised that she had created a stasis where I was always in the wrong and could never do enough, and was continually having to work to disprove her thesis of me. Which leads to

ii) She is the only sibling I have, and it's important (very) to my parents we get on. She HAS NEVER APOLOGISED TO ME ONCE IN HER WHOLE LIFE for anything she has ever said or done, I on the other hand have apologised countless times - in the above situation my parent's can't bear when we have fallen out - it really stresses them out as they are very close to their siblings, and my parents are lovely people - and as she will never, ever back down or apologise, it falls to me to make amends for things I haven't even done.

Add into that eroded self esteem, and bleurgh.

But she's my sister, and I love her. This is a major headf*ck.
She did a counselling course some years ago (to get counselling skills) as part of some CPD and I saw that she'd written that 'my relationship with my sister is very important to me'.
As I said on holiday her friends had noted she spoke to me like she was my mother.
I don't know what the relationship looks like in her head, but she sees it, whatever it is, as strong.

It is so hard to be rational and protect myself, and then there's my sister who deep in my chest I'd do anything for. This is so confusing and probably frustrating for posters - I saw in my last thread how I kept going back and trying to excuse fBIL's behaviour and how silly that looks now. But somehow it seems different as she is my sister

Thank you robot I think what kicked it off for me too was when she just wasn't that bothered when I was seriously ill last year

Doubtless therapy would be a good idea but that is a quite a ways down the road for me at the moment

and 43 percent thank you, that is a lovely way of putting it

Hopefully I am beginning the very slow, long process of wising up

I could have written all your posts. My sister was born on the same day as me. she drips poison towards me and always has only like you, it has taken me years and years to see it. She has also set in motion a campaign to convince the family I have bipolar. The similarities between your situ and mine are astonishing.

I am now NC with her. Her husband is a controlling bastard, alcoholic etc etc but my sister was poison before he came along. I put up with so much from her because I thought she was in an abusive relationship. She may or may not be, it's irrelevant irt our relationship.

My mother has had various health crises in response to my refusal to be associated with my sister but I refuse to be the lamb led to the slaughter for the sake of the family 'peace' that is not peaceful for me and significantly undermines my mental health.

Ime my sister got worse. You won't be able to manage your sister. (I'm writing on a crap tablet, wish I could write more coherently)

unchangedname

I would read up on narcissistic personality disorder re your sister and see if any of that rings a bell with you. Your sister's always been this way and she has met someone just like her.

It is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist.

I haven't read your other threads, but from what you have written on this thread it seems clear that she doesn't really like you. You know that already though. The question is, why do you keep going back and taking more crap from her. Incidentally, I think the land-line phone number is a red herring really. She is entitled to not give you the number - I can't see why it is such a big deal.

You say that it is important to your parents that you get on. Do they know how much she upsets you? Would they still be so very keen for you to try to get on if they knew you were upset, that she was taking chunks out of your self-esteem?

You have to think about you now. Try to stop over-analysing what your sisters actions mean, and who they come from. She was clearly vile before she met her partner. I guess his reaction to you has rubbed off from her. That's not really important though.

Take a few steps back. Have a bit of distance between the two of you. If/when she asks why, just tell her that you don't like the way she treats you so you are stepping back from the relationship a little. If she reacts badly to it, well so what? Let her.

I am wondering why you have also gone back for yet more of the same from her; its probably because you're still hoping (forlornly) that she will somehow change and become a nicer person (after all she is your sister. Makes no odds).

Such people like your sister do not change, she is simply projecting all her stuff onto you.

Stop buying her gifts. Don't say why or apologise. Just don't. Get her baby a small gift (not spending more than what is suitable for you. If she demands a certain gift you either contribute a fiver or say I can't afford too"

Stop apologising for the fact she is not the sister you want her to be and never will be. She won't change. There is nothing you can do about that. You can't choose your family. Its a pity, but its not your fault.

You say she used to be nice but you don't have any examples of niceness. She has never apologised to you. She is rude to you and treats you like dirt.

Do you constantly discuss her behaviour with your parents and they try to mediate? Stop doing that. I think this will be the hardest thing but although its important for them you get on, it should not be at the detriment of your own life and self esteem.

And don't see her so much, don't answer the phone when eating, and don't let her sit round your house and be rude to you. Get busy instead. Invite her only when you have a friend round who won't put up with any crap directed at you.

And always either meet somewhere neutral and always put in place a time limit, even at home. Make it up if you have to. And only an hour at a time.

If she's been doing it for years you need to gather the tools mentally to deal with it, I have seen quite a few threads on here where a poster has got daily support on relatives like this, and ideas for how to deal with it and the fall out.

You have to emotionally step back. It's hard to do. Some people have a public persona that is light and airy and they are (perhaps superficially) popular. They reserve their choice behaviour for those in their 'inner circle'.

The dynamic can't always be fixed. You just have to go for damage limitation for your own sake.

I completely understand about the need to preserve a relationship for the sake of your parents. The reality is that cutting contact would hurt them but simply fuel your sister.

Unchanged I feel rally sorry for you because the distress this is causing you leaps from your posts

You sound as if you need some sort of boundary here because at the moment her family unit hold all the control and every approach you make or lack of contact can be criticised.

You could withdraw from any contact just a little bit enough to make her miss you (it does sound like you spend a lot more time together than is normal with adult siblings)

Once her attention has been gained you do need to lay a boundary down of what behaviour towards you is unacceptable from either her or him

Once that is established you would be able to offer more support to your sister. Establishing in might be painful but as things stand you risk a complete relationship breakdown (if not there already!)

The other thing that leaps from your post is a lack of 'your own life'. It's all about her. Force yourself to forget her life and live your own. Make it a mission every day to plan an activity for you without any consideration of her.

Have you ever written a diary? That can be useful to give clarity to a situation. Lots of online apps. I use Day One

Not sure why PPs keep asking why do you keep going back or a kicking when as frequent contributers to his thread you will be familiar with the dynamics of EA and NPD.

OP people only get the to conclusion of EA after experiencing and connecting repeated patterns of behaviour. Each bad incident alone just leaves you questioning yourself, the facts, your interpretation etc but you dont see the wood for the trees.

What you are doing now is joining the dots. Well done - dont try to take her on, it will cause you too much stress, drain your emotional reserves, you wont "win" and she is not worth it. Let her stew in her own toxic sewer.

But you will "win" if you go NC or reduce interactions to specific scenarios (official family occassions) .... Just withdraw contact quietly and subtly over time. Do not give her another opportunity for a fight/drama/showdown/abuse etc.

Not sure if you even need to let your parents know that this is what you have decided to do. Maybe they will percieve that things are a lot more peaceful and harmoniuos between their daughters because they are not hearing of conflict.

You have done wonderfully to get where you have today. Life will be much better from now on. I am in the same situation. My thoughts are now not dominated/pre occupied with the churning Qs about yet another incident concerning my sister.....because there are now not any new opportunities to create an incident. Be strong give all your emotional energy to the "radiators" in your life (ie those that you get positive energy back from) disconnect from the "drains".

Be prepared for her to be agitated by a distancing even if you have not told her that this is what is explicitly happening. The baby will probably be zher weapon of choice....she has used it already. Plan lots of nice things to do to keep her out of your head.

I have no idea what she gets out of having me around when I reflect on how she treats me.

I have just read the two earlier threads you linked to and I would ask yourself,
"If I were not around, just whom would my sister use as a whipping boy?"

It doesn't surprise me in the least she wrote about her relationship with you being so important.

As for your sibling unity being such a precious deal to your parents, come on - are they so deaf and blind to never notice how she talks to you or denigrates you? It saddens me when grown up children still work so hard at maintaining damaging relationships because 'it upsets Mum and Dad when we fight'.

When you posted about your BIL it was as though he were the fly in the ointment. At the same time you tried to be fair, saying how you'd got along at first, even stating,
you thought he was actually a sensitive person, whose feelings could be hurt easily (!).

For me it stands out that back in the first thread you felt your sister had changed since she's been with him, whereas now it transpires she has always been quick to put you down and be condescending.

Unfortunately the pair of them bring out each other's meanest instincts so no matter how much you love your DN I would advise steering clear.

Some great advice here, especially from kittybelle. OP, how do you feel about quietly going NC? I too agree that she will use dn as a pawn but don't let her. Gradually ignore her Skype calls as a first step.

Do you have friends/hobbies/a house/a job, OP? If so, could you focus on those for a change? Your sister will probably challenge you if you step back a bit, but you can reply 'Oh sorry, I am just so busy with my big macrame project at the moment.'