Sister or partner. Who is behind her unpleasant behaviour to me. + red flag query

[unchangedname]

Hi guys.

Sorry I started writing this about red flags but it has become about my relationship with my sister, and whether she is instigating her attitude towards me (and my parents) or whether it is indeed her partner.

Here are my old threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2169105-Is-generally-not-believing-always-double-checking-a-red-flag

A bit more background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2153440-Dont-get-on-with-future-BIL-Will-it-get-better

(Please don't reply to the latter thread though as I'm hoping it will stay buried due to some identifying details! I think traffic is higher in chat and am paranoid )

What might be a red flag sometimes only occurs to me days or even weeks later.

The latest that I would like some advice on is that they have moved into new rental accommodation for 6 months while their house purchase is going through. They moved about a month ago.

My sister is refusing to give us the landline number. This is very out of character for the old sister I used to know.

Basically, whenever he answered the phone to us in the old house it was a 'oh, you again' tone. From my sister, if we called during dinner (which was not at a fixed time so we weren't to know) we would get summarily and crossly chastised and rung off. If we accidentally called during their favourite TV show she would either answer angrily or they would simply not answer the phone.
[Old sister pre-relationship if rung during her dinner would happily have a quick chat, or very civilly we'd arrange to chat later, or just natter while she ate. Also I would always ring her landline and she would ring mine and there were no problems].

We have all been trained off the landline now and only call her mobile as a result.

She texted the new address. I replied asking for the landline and received no reply. I've never not received a text reply from her, ever. A few days later I texted to ask again and nothing. When we next spoke I asked for the landline and she said 'we've decided not to give it to anyone'. When pressed for a reason, she said 'it came free with the broadband and we didn't really want it'. I said I thought it would be good if we had it for safety reasons - we would only call it if we couldn't reach them by mobile for an alarming amount of time. She came up with a number of reasons which one by one she admitted weren't valid, and eventually got in a huff with me so I dropped it.

After an incident where she called as I was serving a dinner that I'd been cooking for my parents for 2.5h, about a pretty trivial organisational matter, and called back four times in immediate succession, which called each of us away from the table in turn for 5-10 minutes at a time, then chastised me in an email for being mean in not wanting to sort it out there and then, I was minded of what happens when we call her when they are eating dinner.

I am now confused as to whether, actually, her dislike and disrespect of me is authored by him or her. As I say in my long thread, her sense of humour became very cruel and dismissive when they got together romantically, and she lets him act however he wants around us, and has got to taking on his criticisms of us as her own, starting to corner me about things I do wrong or unlikeable traits I have, or my bad taste in TV, or how shallow and materialistic I am, or whatever. I am trying to untangle whether she has always basically looked down on us (me and my parents) a bit and his presence just sharpens it, or whether he is the author. I don't know anymore.

Our whole lives, she has pretty much made out she is the saviour sister that has put up with me, and that I have consistently been a needy, selfish, emotionally bloodsucking, errant person. I have consistently been told for the past 15 years (probably implied further back than that, as well) that I do nothing for her, am incredibly selfish and self centred, am a let-down and a worry, untrustworthy, irresponsible, self-centred etc.
She treats me more like a pet that can be wheeled out for amusement, as I suppose I am quite eccentric, a bit young-at-heart, used to have an interesting/unusual career and lead a slightly odd life. This makes me a good auntie as I can be very silly with her baby and possibly a good topic of conversation with her friends? ...I have no idea what she gets out of having me around when I reflect on how she treats me.

In a personal review of my life over the past week, I have realised she is the only one who has really had this message towards/about me and I never thought to question it.

Her partner treats me like this but his style is different - eye-rolling and passive aggressive. She is direct and rude, or analyses me under the guise of psychology, telling me my faults: 'it's actually really sad, because you're so selfish you can't see that...' 'i'm really sad, because I feel like I can't trust you to be there for me... ' etc. This latter is because six years ago she had(?) to go to the pub for drinks with a group of people, one of which was the best friend of a man she had been dating for a few months, and wanted me to go with her for emotional support. I was in a pretty bad place, hadn't left my house for months, but even so would have gone had I realised what a big deal it was to her and that it'd be brought up every few months for the next several years ('see, I know I can't rely on you, and that makes me sad...')

The result is I can never do enough for her. Nothing I do is good enough, no amount of gestures can convince her that I am not terminally selfish, I am scared to talk to her in case I 'slip up' and 'reveal my selfishness' - accused of turning the conversation back to me, not asking about her enough. (As per my long thread, I looked after the baby day and night for four days and got accused of being 'the most selfish person in the world', and told I was only looking after him because I wanted to). I have just realised it and I am really tired of it.

I will say I have massively moved on from my old thread - I can't believe how unsure of myself I was at the start. Rereading it is what made me start to question the dynamic with my sister.

The advice I received was like water in a desert of confusion, so as I cannot discuss this with anyone in real life, nor seem to get any perspective no matter how hard I try and think it though, I would appreciate any other points of view, even if I have to be told off or visit my own culpability in this situation.

unchangedname I also posted on your other thread and I can tell this has been a massive wake-up call for you. It does seem, sadly, as if you are the whipping boy in the family and I do urge you to distance yourself, focus on your own career, friends and so on.

I also get the impression you may need support to do this- your family are rather intrusive (and I say that as someone very close to your family)- do you have a counsellor that could support you?

Hi Biblio

You know, and actually this may be what kicked it off for me, after the dinner/phonecalls thing a couple of days before I started this thread, I stupidly was the one to somehow make amends!! The hysterical ringing back had me a little worried about her, plus my parents conveyed (they were trying not to I think) that she was upset - so I emailed her a detailed email late that evening, after the dinner, with all the organisational details and more, and was light hearted about the occasion that was being organised. It was just easier if I smoothed it over.

She emailed me back telling me I had upset her in the phonecalls (the one I fielded - phone call 1 of 4 where I said dinner was being served and I'd call her tomorrow), completely spoiled the mooted occasion for her and she did not want to do any of the activities with me, in fact she did not want to do any activities at all and that I was to book my own activities.

I emailed back, standing up for myself for the first time in my blimmin' life, very briefly, that 'the most selfish person in the world' was onto her gaslighting, and to blame me, as it suited the script! Well this will out me if she is on here if everything else hasn't...

The reply?

"You aren't very nice to other people and think it is only you having a hard time. I'm used to that. Your response illustrates that perfectly."

Which got me worrying about PND, then my mind went to the worst case scenario that she was having PND and I was making it worse, then I thought I had better just apologise as I don't want her to be upset, forget who's in the right.....

Would you behave like your sister does towards anyone else?
No

Would your sister accept the sort of abuse she dishes out?
No

Does she behave like this towards anyone who is not immediate family (ie people who feel in a position to tell her to take a hike)?
No

You are demonstrating absolutely classic severe domestic abuse victim 'spaghetti-headed' thinking which puts the blame 100% on yourself. As Bibliomania pointed out in what universe does taking on her small baby for several days and nights make you the 'most selfish person on earth' as as she claims? Anyone not in a domestic abuse situation as you are would respond to that madness with a snort, an incredulous 'whaaaat?' and a f*ck off! You on the other hand buy in to her accusations by continuing to placate her and accepting her abuse and trying to do 'better' next time.

Serious question. What would happen if you told her to go fuck herself, and never ask you for help again? Is there any accusation or abuse she could throw at you worse than what you've already endured?

.. Your own beloved sister who's been around since the year dot. Your year dot (it's all you've ever known).

There's something about sibling abuse that creeps into the very core of you, really. I'm not saying it's worse than parental abuse.. but it hamstrings you socially, in a peer way (and if it's a sister, in your relationships with women? female friends. I wonder about eg women who say they 'get on better with men'; if they've been abused by sisters - and/or mother's, of course.)

OP this is essentially an abusive dynamic, you have the same investment your sister's approval, bonds to her you find hard to break, and total befuddlement at her relentless emotional games, that is very common in women in an abusive relationships.

You as much want to be with your sister as much as some women want to be with their partners despite horrible abuse. This is destroying your life, your confidence, and it will send you round the twist.

The only thing you can do to save yourself is to go NC with her. I realise your parents will give you a hard time about that, but tell them that she's abusive and in the end you have to save yourself. What they do is up to them, but they have to respect your choice.

Hi Miggsie, Bleedingheart and TheNapoleon.

I do think my parents were very loving to me as a baby and child, I think it was the combination of obsessive interests, savant abilities and being just a few degrees off... socially, more than anything else that got me thinking about it. Plus sensory issues. But still there is much evidence against. For example I am not troubled by eye contact and feel I can interpret emotions from faces very well.

The impression I had is that growing up I was the one who everyone had to navigate around, hence my feeling that I am responsible for the sister I have.

I always fitted right in in this dynamic but I am not sure it is who I actually am. Or who I want to be any more

springy, that's the case with my mother.

Your sister is acting in an abusive way. It's absolutely typical - and deeply, tooth-grindingly maddening - for an abusive person to claim to be the victim. But BreakWind points out the classic test: would you treat her like she treats you?

growing up I was the one who everyone had to navigate around

From your description, it's your sister who gets navigated around and not you at all.

You are right this role has defined my life

This is extremely confusing

I have at times found myself talking to my parents like she does, but I realise and am horrified and apologise

Also...

I feel really ashamed about this. But I took the Narcisstic questionnaire after some suggested it be looked into re. her. And I scored 32, where the cutoff for NPD is 20.

Could I be the Narcissist? Could I be weaving this tale around her to make her look bad when I am the bad one?

I don't know what to do

I remember your first thread, and reading through this, I have been horrified at how your sister treats you and your parents. I agree with PP - she is abusive to you and to them.

You said that you thought the way she treats you is related to her being the older sister, and the age gap. I am the youngest and my older sisters are six and eight years older than me - the way they treat me is nothing like the way your sister treats you.

My sisters and I were not very close while I was growing up, due to the age gap and the way my parents treated us - I was 'babied' and a bit spoilt, and my sisters were often expected to babysit and look after me. They had some conflicts with my parents while they were in their late teens/ early twenties, and at the time I resented them for 'causing' problems, but looking back I can see my parents were to blame. These issues were resolved, and any quarrels/ problems they had with my parents since then have been minor stuff that I expect most adults have with their parents (my parents being very rigid about their routine as they got older, culture clash from us all going to university and moving away from our working class roots, inlaws living closer and seeing the grandchildren more often).

My sisters are now probably closer to each other than I am to them (partly age, personality, and geography - I live quite far from them). This is a fairly minor issue to me, and I still feel close to them - we keep in touch via text, phone, and Facebook, and we try to get together once each year without husbands and children. Though occasionally we fall back into teenage bickering while we're together!

We have become closer since dad died a few years ago, as mum has been ill and there have been various crises to deal with.

The only time any of them have been angry with me as adults was after I visited my mum during one health crisis - it was very stressful, and I didn't respond to any texts while I was there or send an email about the visit after I got home. The middle sister emailed me saying how unhelpful it was and that she felt I was hardly in touch - I responded and apologised, but pointed out that it had been a very stressful and upsetting few days and I was still recovering and trying to gather my thoughts. My apology was accepted and we've been ok since then.

We might have different views about life, television, books, films, bit we always respect each other's POV.

I find them irritating occasionally, as they can still be a bit bossy towards me, but it's very minor stuff :) And as the youngest I still get the odd bit of clothing passed down to me.

This is what a sister relationship should be - nothing like your sister.

Hi Ellie

That is exactly it -

'we always respect each other's POV'

I assumed that that is not what an older sister does to a younger sister

And she is always angry with me - either overtly, or implied

It is basically exhausting

...said your baby nephew will grow up to treat you like his parents do - that was a whoah moment

This happened in my family, I'm sorry to say. I could kick myself that I didn't get into it sooner. But let's not blame it on ourselves, eh.

I am, you are, the scapegoat. In my family it's done in a malicious way, in your family it sounds like it's a pattern your parents have unthinkingly fallen in to, they are not malicious with it. But they do perpetuate it, whether they realise it or not.

I really would put a huge question mark over any possible dx's on your part. Certainly not that you are responsible for creating your monster sister. That's so heartbreaking for you to think, believe, that. I did too, of course - believed I was inherently flawed, that they'd all be happy if it wasn't for terrible me; though that is a strong family belief system, overtly acted out. Yours isn't as clear cut.

With reference to my NPD post I wonder if I am making myself out to be a saint and if she was to write a thread on me, would I be the Narcissist

Re this part of your comment you wrote earlier:-

"Part of me is wondering, is she just spoilt and can it be fixed".

No re just spoilt and a definite no re can it be fixed. Your role here is not one of fixer in any case, if you've been defined a role here within your dysfunctional family of origin its one of scapegoat for all your sister's ills.

I do not think you are narcissistic at all. That questionnaire is indeed questionable and I would also question its cut off of 20. NPD does not work like that.

I think it's par for the course that we run through wondering if it's us who is the narcissist in all this. In many ways it feels easier, a means to resolve all the pain and confusion: look! I've got a big disorder! you can be nice to me now, cut me some slack, we can be happy knowing there's something wrong with me, I can't help it

Yes, very tempting. But wrong. - on so many levels.

Have you heard of catching "fleas" from an abuser? See link here.

Wondering, seriously considering, if you are a narcissist proves you aren't!

With reference to my NPD post I wonder if I am making myself out to be a saint and if she was to write a thread on me, would I be the Narcissist

Well - let's suppose that is true. That you are a narcissist or a sociopath and you have caused all this just by being you. In that case - the best thing you can do for your sister is to go NC and let her heal from all the damage you have caused her.

Now - from what you have said I don't think you are but the point is - one of you two is a sociopath (I vote her) so you two should not see each other to reduce the damage.

Thank you Springydaffs, God I needed to hear that

You know, a few years ago (not that many) I went to stay with my mum's brother in the States, and his wife and 2 kids, boy and girl (I'd known and loved them since babies, now 18 and 15)

His wife has been making little comments all my life, about my height, my looks, being over-educated, whatever, and when I went to stay in their house the campaign kind of stepped up.

On their numerous trips to us (every other summer) I would (me, why me) spend probably a solid month ringing around making phone calls and bookings and organising an amazing visit, my dad would shell out about £2-3000 (in the 90s) all in for van hire and we'd tour the country with them and put them up in good hotels. Take them to restaurants every night and to the latest West end show, let them bring pen pals and high school friends and treat them too.

When I went there they all basically ignored me, things would happen like uncle's wife furiously ripped off the duvet he'd put on my bed and told him it was their daughter's, son (my cousin) would do piles of shit in the toilet that was next to my room (in a separate part of the house) and not flush it, they'd 'rehearse' their band right next to my room at full volume 11pm at night.
I didn't add it up. That's why I thought ASD, who else could miss this stuff. I was just feeling worse and worse, like happened with my fBIL.

I hired a car and spent most of the day away from them. During the last week he got some free tickets through work for a show so we went, and on the way we dropped my female cousin (15) at her friend's. Her mum was cooing over some laminated project in the back she had got an A in or something, so I took a look.

Among taylor swift lyrics, pictures of whoever was hot at the time and some other stuff, 'week in the life' or some sort of project I think it was, I came across a neatly formatted page right in the middle.

It was called ways to get a house guest out of your house

and it listed all the things her, her mum and brother had been doing to me.

I'm going to get this particular post deleted as it's too identifiable, but I'm going to copy and paste as I found the file.

10. if they are 30 and still living at home, talk about how much other people have achieved to them whenever possible

11. if there is another guest staying there at the same time, compliment them instead

12. if they are vegetarian, make meat every night and have a barbeque

13. block their rental car so they can't get out of the driveway

14. if they love to have discussions, turn everything they say into a joke

15. if they are addicted to the internet, make sure it is switched off

16. if they like peace and quiet, play loud music, preferably live, next to their room

17. if they didn't bring their own toiletries, repeatedly take them back to a corner of the house as far away from them as possible

OH GOD THIS UPSETS ME SO MUCH I forget it was this personal.
It's all true by the way, and I had forgotten 1 and 2. god knows what they were

my sister was FURIOUS about this and won't to this day really speak to any of that family as a result.
so that's confusing!!

my mum... basically told me people won't respect you if you're unemployed. I was so stunned when 2 weeks after I came home I heard her pouring her heart out to someone. It turned out to be my aunt! her sister-in-law.

So Yeah. I just think I fucking deserve all this shit. Born bad.

Do you want to know the funny thing. The night before there was a problem with her printer and her dad (prob unknowingly) hauled out brainbox here to fix it. She looked really uncomfortable and kept saying it would be fine, and in the end I didn't get it to work. I was trying to fix a fucking printer so someone could print this list about me

Sorry to add. I copied that from an email I sent my sister that same evening, remembering what I could of the list. She was the one who told me it was unacceptable and to get out of there. You can see why this is so confusing as she was so in my corner then.

This is what my sister wrote in response, verbatim: this is only three years ago:

This is appalling.

Leave immediately and never give these people another thought.

unchangedname although you know I am away until Monday (bank holiday) you can text me any time this weekend and I will try to call you from my mobile.

I would like to know if [other step-cousin] saw this and what you think she thought about it.

But otherwise I don't care what anyone thinks. Your welfare is the priority. Leave immediately, do not say goodbye and do not deal with them again.

Don't know why I am posting all this stuff. It is somewhat tangential. Actually I do know - it is like springy said, do I, not deserve this, but is there something so off with me that people cannot help but respond in this manner

I've read this thread with my jaw on the floor.

You're surrounded by utter arseholes.

The fact that your sister doesn't like anyone else mistreating you proves that she recognises bad behaviour. But you're HERS to abuse. Nobody else's. She's revolting.

My uncle was furious with me for leaving, for 'overreacting as she is only 15' - here is full email I sent to my sister
Don't know why i'm posting it. it's cathartic to get all the shit out I suppose

:
well, in the car on the way to the show, we were giving [girl cousin] a lift to her friend's to drop her before we continued on to the show

in the back was a large, black, elaborate leather portfolio [step-cousin] was reading, which was [girl cousin's] big school assignment that she had handed in and got back today.

it was a book of her lists, such as things to do over the summer, her favourite music, etc. all carefully printed in different fonts, interspersed with photos of her as a child, inserted into clear plastic sheets in this leather bound file

a couple of pages before the end was one A4 page all to itself, with each corner neatly trimmed into a hexagonal shape, carefully printed in a nice font:

'how to get a house guest out of the house'

10. if they are 30 and still living at home, talk about how much other people have achieved to them whenever possible

11. if there is another guest staying there at the same time, compliment them instead

12. if they are vegetarian, make meat every night and have a barbeque

13. block their rental car so they can't get out of the driveway

14. if they love to have discussions, turn everything they say into a joke

15. if they are addicted to the internet, make sure it is switched off

16. if they like peace and quiet, play loud music, preferably live, next to their room

17. if they didn't bring their own toiletries, repeatedly take them back to a corner of the house as far away from them as possible

there were 10 of these in total. numbered from 10 down to 1. this is exactly what was written, no elaborations from me. i have forgotten two. you should know they have been doing every one of these things - [aunt] will do 10, 9, 8 and 3, [boy cousin] will do 8, 7, 4 and 5. [aunt] was even doing 10 on the way home. [girl cousin] will do 3 and 6. and i kept telling myself it was just me being over-sensitive and i should pull myself together. but clearly some thought has gone into this

i spent a good 10 minutes just taking it all in. [aunt] eventually noticed me reading it and started trying to change the subject. i don't think [uncle] saw

[aunt] put the portfolio in the trunk when we dropped [girl cousin]. when we got home after the show she immediately took it out of the trunk and took it into her own room