Sister or partner. Who is behind her unpleasant behaviour to me. + red flag query

[unchangedname]

Hi guys.

Sorry I started writing this about red flags but it has become about my relationship with my sister, and whether she is instigating her attitude towards me (and my parents) or whether it is indeed her partner.

Here are my old threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2169105-Is-generally-not-believing-always-double-checking-a-red-flag

A bit more background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2153440-Dont-get-on-with-future-BIL-Will-it-get-better

(Please don't reply to the latter thread though as I'm hoping it will stay buried due to some identifying details! I think traffic is higher in chat and am paranoid )

What might be a red flag sometimes only occurs to me days or even weeks later.

The latest that I would like some advice on is that they have moved into new rental accommodation for 6 months while their house purchase is going through. They moved about a month ago.

My sister is refusing to give us the landline number. This is very out of character for the old sister I used to know.

Basically, whenever he answered the phone to us in the old house it was a 'oh, you again' tone. From my sister, if we called during dinner (which was not at a fixed time so we weren't to know) we would get summarily and crossly chastised and rung off. If we accidentally called during their favourite TV show she would either answer angrily or they would simply not answer the phone.
[Old sister pre-relationship if rung during her dinner would happily have a quick chat, or very civilly we'd arrange to chat later, or just natter while she ate. Also I would always ring her landline and she would ring mine and there were no problems].

We have all been trained off the landline now and only call her mobile as a result.

She texted the new address. I replied asking for the landline and received no reply. I've never not received a text reply from her, ever. A few days later I texted to ask again and nothing. When we next spoke I asked for the landline and she said 'we've decided not to give it to anyone'. When pressed for a reason, she said 'it came free with the broadband and we didn't really want it'. I said I thought it would be good if we had it for safety reasons - we would only call it if we couldn't reach them by mobile for an alarming amount of time. She came up with a number of reasons which one by one she admitted weren't valid, and eventually got in a huff with me so I dropped it.

After an incident where she called as I was serving a dinner that I'd been cooking for my parents for 2.5h, about a pretty trivial organisational matter, and called back four times in immediate succession, which called each of us away from the table in turn for 5-10 minutes at a time, then chastised me in an email for being mean in not wanting to sort it out there and then, I was minded of what happens when we call her when they are eating dinner.

I am now confused as to whether, actually, her dislike and disrespect of me is authored by him or her. As I say in my long thread, her sense of humour became very cruel and dismissive when they got together romantically, and she lets him act however he wants around us, and has got to taking on his criticisms of us as her own, starting to corner me about things I do wrong or unlikeable traits I have, or my bad taste in TV, or how shallow and materialistic I am, or whatever. I am trying to untangle whether she has always basically looked down on us (me and my parents) a bit and his presence just sharpens it, or whether he is the author. I don't know anymore.

Our whole lives, she has pretty much made out she is the saviour sister that has put up with me, and that I have consistently been a needy, selfish, emotionally bloodsucking, errant person. I have consistently been told for the past 15 years (probably implied further back than that, as well) that I do nothing for her, am incredibly selfish and self centred, am a let-down and a worry, untrustworthy, irresponsible, self-centred etc.
She treats me more like a pet that can be wheeled out for amusement, as I suppose I am quite eccentric, a bit young-at-heart, used to have an interesting/unusual career and lead a slightly odd life. This makes me a good auntie as I can be very silly with her baby and possibly a good topic of conversation with her friends? ...I have no idea what she gets out of having me around when I reflect on how she treats me.

In a personal review of my life over the past week, I have realised she is the only one who has really had this message towards/about me and I never thought to question it.

Her partner treats me like this but his style is different - eye-rolling and passive aggressive. She is direct and rude, or analyses me under the guise of psychology, telling me my faults: 'it's actually really sad, because you're so selfish you can't see that...' 'i'm really sad, because I feel like I can't trust you to be there for me... ' etc. This latter is because six years ago she had(?) to go to the pub for drinks with a group of people, one of which was the best friend of a man she had been dating for a few months, and wanted me to go with her for emotional support. I was in a pretty bad place, hadn't left my house for months, but even so would have gone had I realised what a big deal it was to her and that it'd be brought up every few months for the next several years ('see, I know I can't rely on you, and that makes me sad...')

The result is I can never do enough for her. Nothing I do is good enough, no amount of gestures can convince her that I am not terminally selfish, I am scared to talk to her in case I 'slip up' and 'reveal my selfishness' - accused of turning the conversation back to me, not asking about her enough. (As per my long thread, I looked after the baby day and night for four days and got accused of being 'the most selfish person in the world', and told I was only looking after him because I wanted to). I have just realised it and I am really tired of it.

I will say I have massively moved on from my old thread - I can't believe how unsure of myself I was at the start. Rereading it is what made me start to question the dynamic with my sister.

The advice I received was like water in a desert of confusion, so as I cannot discuss this with anyone in real life, nor seem to get any perspective no matter how hard I try and think it though, I would appreciate any other points of view, even if I have to be told off or visit my own culpability in this situation.

You know Op , it's ok to get mad about this shit. Your mum shouldn't have run you down to her horrible sister like this. Does she know your upset about it ? I would have been upset as well. Totally normal reaction from you , and unkind unnecessary behaviour from your mum.

Sorry to go on though

I feel quite inspired after reading your post springy.

Hello OP. Just got back from busy weekend to read the thread and firstly I want to say "courage dear heart". You are going away and it's probably not going to be easy. If you can, check in, take heart from the people here giving you very wise advise and caring about you.
I feel that Springy and Just highlight a real dilemma for you and both had good points- working through your situation with your intellect, which is what seems to be most comfortable for you, and essentially working on the problem , which is developing other meaningful and comfortable human relationships outside your immediate and fairly toxic family .
I think you probably NEED to work through it intellectually but to move forward, to really address the whereto's rather than just the why's, you need to give a great deal of thought to next steps. I am no expert in asd but to a layman such as myself, you just sound desperately lonely, isolated and depressed - all of which increase anxiety when thinking about dealing with strangers.
I will say this. I don't think it's black an white - either go and and become the person who goes to the pub or out
Clubbing with everyone after work or the person who never leaves the smothering bosom of her family. There are all sorts in between . I know because I am one. I don't know if it's an age thing either but the older I get the less people I like and the less tolerance I have for forming new friendships. My life situation has changed with children- I am not working and feel insecure and often worthless when I am talking to those who are- as I I have nothing to say. I mention this just to assure you that it's not you versus the rest of the "normal" world. I personally believe in the "kindred spirit " - wherever I have lived I have found a kindred spirit. You can't "make " one, you find each other and you get each other . It might not last forever but it works for the moment . Maybe you should stop seeing yourself as someone who doesn't fit in and rather see yourself as someone who hasn't met your kindred spirit.

Oh, and with the greatest respect , fuck your fucking mum ?? if she doesn't see the value in her exceptionally bright, thoughtful , caring, eager to please daughter then FUCK HER. She doesn't know how lucky she is. Some people would long to have a sister who loves their children. Whether it's her fault or not due to her own messed up relationships , I assume she understands the basic concept of loyalty . If she is that insecure, then repeat to yourself in your head "FUCK HER" until you feel better.

Sorry OP. Another question following on from your answer about visualizing a happy place. I know you said it was a place of solitude but I think I was asking for something more tangible. (Ie living in a cottage by the sea, writing poetry , owning a cat and collecting 18th century soup tureens or something). Maybe visualizing something tangible might make t easier to see what might be needed to start you on your journey

Please spend as much time as possible at the holiday venue being apart from them all
Do low-key stuff like going for long country walks, sitting in a quiet corner of a cafe and watching the world go by
Do some activities you've never tried before, then there's no pressure to be any good at them,you're supposed to make a hash of it the first time you try something

Please try and minimise the time you spend interacting with them all, it will be easier to do so in a new environment as there is no established norm there that you are breaking

Try and have some fun, just for you, rather then your main enjoyment being from doing things to make them happy

I'm no expert but I would very much query suspicions of ads. I wonder if you approach things logically and intellectually because you've been taught that your feelings and reactions are wrong and therefore you Rationalize them away. If it's not your sister then it must be you I imagine the logic goes. There's not a single thing you've reported being upset about that I wouldn't have been upset about too. I think most people would.

Dysfunctional people tend to connect in a backwards forwards way. Instead of getting to know you they decide who you are and what you should be. It's the same as kids playing with dolly , deciding what dolly likes and does not, and affording dolly a particular personality. Dolly does not exist. Dolly is a puppet that they project onto. There's a book that describes this quite well and the author suggests that the dolly mentality is present where ever there is abuse.

I suspect this is what's happened with you. You are told what you are , what your failings are and given a character. On some level people know when this is happening which is why they become so upset when they are told , you were thinking this , you were feeling that , what you meant was , this is what your motivation was ect. Other people cannot know these things and there's something really sinister occurring when this happens. For those moments you fail to exist to them, you are simply a dolly. No wonder you are afraid to step out of your designated character and simply be yourself.

Do consider keeping a check on your internal dialogue with yourself. The self berating you report isn't healthy and means that when your family stop picking at you , you pick at yourself. Would you have said these things to a friend , or even a stranger on here ? So what if you feel enthusiastic about a new hobby ? So what if you got a few things wrong , but I bet you didn't. Speak to yourself as you would a friend.

Good luck for your holiday OP!

Guess what I didn't know how to change a nappy before I has DS and learned the fine art with practice!

Bullies only bully because they have their own issues - it's not your fault your mum & sister act this way. x

OP _ hope you ave a lovely holiday in spite of your family!

Oh and - changing nappies is not hard. Whatever your mum says, there is no right way to do it (other than the right way round/up!) - just clean the bum, cream/powder or whatevr is the thing these days - was cream in my day but not now I think) and stick it on! Anyone who says 'she is crap at changing a nappy' is trying to find something to say to keep you in the rightful place, ie at the bottom of the heap, the 'useless' one - if you were faberoonie at changing nappies (again, its not hard - no-one can be 'bad' at it!) you would be 'useless' at smiling at baby, or pushing the pram, or something else.

You are a good, thoughtful, intelligent and caring person.

Your mum is really quite nasty. I wonder if she has always done this kind of putting you down to your extended family. If she has, whether subtle or unsubtle, then it's no wonder they treat you badly.
Whilst I can completely understand why your mum's comments and laughing hurt you, try to remember that they actually show her up in a bad light, not you.

I hope your holiday is ok. Keep checking in to your thread to remind yourself that you are ok, it's the other buggers that have the problems!

You're with them all the time, anyway, so I doubt the hol is going to be that different. Except you can busy yourself with on-hand projects. You know things aren't right and you are naturally changing how you respond

I suspect you intellectualise because you are seriously bright. And that's fine to do that imo, more than fine. You are already waking up to your feelings - the frequent tears prove that. You're on track imo. The concern about over intellectualising is because it can be a device used to escape, or deny, feelings (or feeling feelings) and we can all do that when the pain of the reality gets too challenging - perhaps those who are less bright can do it more iyswim, unable to define nuances and the bigger picture. I suspect your 'cult' history may also have equipped you to accept what is before you unemotionally, sans ego. Which has its place imo.

I was saying my fond farewells because I assumed you'd be off the grid - which is not necessarily the case of course, that's just me being dark ages about it. Keep in touch? I expect you'll have some gold nugget moments with them you'd like to share and disseminate. We're here if you need it.

Hoping things are going ok, OP.

I really hope you enjoy your holiday OP. I'm going to follow this post with one with suggestions for you to consider when you're back home again.

From your latest posts and the descriptions of your past last life therein, I perceive that the problems you have with people and socialising are such that our advice simply to move out of home and in with other people probably seems to you a) terrifying and b) impossible right now.

I would like to talk to you about ASD & social anxiety. I have a feeling that you're thinking ASD spectrum as you identify particularly with the social difficulties that ASD sufferers experience.

I should first say as a caveat I am not a psychiatrist, I am not qualified to diagnose you, nor would I ever attempt to determine the true nature someone's problem from words on the net. What I am suggesting is merely that I share my thoughts, you follow it up with reading of your own, see if it tallies with your experiences, if not, feel free to dismiss it.

The difficulties socialising for ASD sufferers are based in problems of understanding other people and how they work, reading people and empathy. ASD sufferers may lack a theory of mind - ie they lack an idea of how other people's minds work and an ability to perceive how others think and feel. They also find it hard to interpret social cues and subtle messages from people such as facial expressions, body language, tone, irony, figurative speech and slang.

I think you are all about reading other people, being sensitive to them people, seeing, predicting & responding to their needs. I think you may be over-sensitive to other people rather than insensitive as ASD sufferers tend to be. You don't show any obvious signs in your posts of difficulty recognising and processing the feelings of others, or any difficulty considering your interaction with them, you seem, by contrast, overly preoccupied with all these.

I am not saying, though, that you couldn't be ASD spectrum, I've never met you so I've no idea. You may be atypical in some respects yet conform to type in others. However, I think it's worth considering the possibility that your issues may be based in or related to Social Anxiety Disorder or Avoidant Personality Disorder rather than ASD.

Social Anxiety is an overwhelming fear of interaction with other people, fear of being judged negatively, deep sensitivity to criticism and the opinions of other people, intense feelings of self-consciousness that persist way beyond childhood and adolescence. All this leads to feelings of distress, inferiority, embarrassment, humiliation and depression. As a result, sufferers tend to avoid people and social situations, which impacts negatively on quality of life, social relationships and work performance. APD is simply a more persistent and generalised form of Social Anxiety Disorder, and overlaps considerably with the latter. (Indeed there's some debate as to whether they are indeed separate entities).

It's not uncommon for ASD spectrum and Social Anxiety to be confused, as there is an overlap in symptoms such as avoiding eye contact, avoiding social activities, difficulties being around people, a tendency to become withdrawn etc. The essential difference is the cause of the behaviour patterns. ASD is a developmental disorder, whereas SAD is based in anxiety, sometimes indeed in trauma.

You might be interested in this page which compares Social Anxiety criteria with ASD: Social Anxiety Institute social-anxiety-and-aspergers-differences

It should be said that some ASD sufferers experience social anxiety due to their difficulties, so identifying with social anxiety does not rule ASD out.

Given your difficulties with people, I think our advice to move out of your dysfunctional family situation is several steps ahead of where you are now. The first thing that needs to happen is that you need to get diagnosed. If you are around the London area the Maudsley has a good ASD unit:[[https://www.national.slam.nhs.uk/services/adult-services/autismclinic/
Autism Assessment and Behavioural Genetics Clinic]]

If they decide that ASD not the problem they will be able to refer you on to a psychiatrist to evaluate social anxiety in particular, and broader mental health issues of anxiety and depression in general.

It sounds likely that before you would be able to move out you would need good therapy and a programme to help you build up your self confidence bit by bit.

In the light of all this, I would suggest that more achievable alternative living arrangements in the short term may be some kind of sheltered accommodation.

Sound advice from twinkle. Unfortunately whilst most of us are screaming LTB at our screens or as one poster said earlier wish we could swap places with you for a day and give them all hell, it seems that you don't feel able to just move out from all you have written - perhaps both from a practical perspective (no job) but also overwhelmingly from an emotional perspective. But you are taking the first steps on this journey so well done you !

But we're not better than you at this, we just haven't been ground down to a nub by it, as you have - any one if us would be the same, if not worse off, if we were exposed to the same systematic shit you have been. I'm sure of that.
Thinking of you, hope it's going OK.

Exactly Springy. So, so difficult to see the reality of a situation, much less effectively change it, when your stuck right there in the middle of it and have been all of your life.

I hope the holiday is going ok, and perhaps the change of scenery is giving you opportunity to gather yourself and make plans for the future.

Yes, been thinking about you OP. All the best.

Thinking about you too, unchanged. Hope you're ok.

When does unchanged get back from her holiday?
I've been worrying about her

Don't know, but she's been gone a week. Might be back today? Whenever it is, we're still here rooting for you, unchanged! ((Agree it's a misnomer now!)

I'm not at all worried! You've so got a handle on this op, I really think you'll go from strength to strength.

But I do miss you and hope you'll come back to us