Sister or partner. Who is behind her unpleasant behaviour to me. + red flag query

[unchangedname]

Hi guys.

Sorry I started writing this about red flags but it has become about my relationship with my sister, and whether she is instigating her attitude towards me (and my parents) or whether it is indeed her partner.

Here are my old threads:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2169105-Is-generally-not-believing-always-double-checking-a-red-flag

A bit more background:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2153440-Dont-get-on-with-future-BIL-Will-it-get-better

(Please don't reply to the latter thread though as I'm hoping it will stay buried due to some identifying details! I think traffic is higher in chat and am paranoid )

What might be a red flag sometimes only occurs to me days or even weeks later.

The latest that I would like some advice on is that they have moved into new rental accommodation for 6 months while their house purchase is going through. They moved about a month ago.

My sister is refusing to give us the landline number. This is very out of character for the old sister I used to know.

Basically, whenever he answered the phone to us in the old house it was a 'oh, you again' tone. From my sister, if we called during dinner (which was not at a fixed time so we weren't to know) we would get summarily and crossly chastised and rung off. If we accidentally called during their favourite TV show she would either answer angrily or they would simply not answer the phone.
[Old sister pre-relationship if rung during her dinner would happily have a quick chat, or very civilly we'd arrange to chat later, or just natter while she ate. Also I would always ring her landline and she would ring mine and there were no problems].

We have all been trained off the landline now and only call her mobile as a result.

She texted the new address. I replied asking for the landline and received no reply. I've never not received a text reply from her, ever. A few days later I texted to ask again and nothing. When we next spoke I asked for the landline and she said 'we've decided not to give it to anyone'. When pressed for a reason, she said 'it came free with the broadband and we didn't really want it'. I said I thought it would be good if we had it for safety reasons - we would only call it if we couldn't reach them by mobile for an alarming amount of time. She came up with a number of reasons which one by one she admitted weren't valid, and eventually got in a huff with me so I dropped it.

After an incident where she called as I was serving a dinner that I'd been cooking for my parents for 2.5h, about a pretty trivial organisational matter, and called back four times in immediate succession, which called each of us away from the table in turn for 5-10 minutes at a time, then chastised me in an email for being mean in not wanting to sort it out there and then, I was minded of what happens when we call her when they are eating dinner.

I am now confused as to whether, actually, her dislike and disrespect of me is authored by him or her. As I say in my long thread, her sense of humour became very cruel and dismissive when they got together romantically, and she lets him act however he wants around us, and has got to taking on his criticisms of us as her own, starting to corner me about things I do wrong or unlikeable traits I have, or my bad taste in TV, or how shallow and materialistic I am, or whatever. I am trying to untangle whether she has always basically looked down on us (me and my parents) a bit and his presence just sharpens it, or whether he is the author. I don't know anymore.

Our whole lives, she has pretty much made out she is the saviour sister that has put up with me, and that I have consistently been a needy, selfish, emotionally bloodsucking, errant person. I have consistently been told for the past 15 years (probably implied further back than that, as well) that I do nothing for her, am incredibly selfish and self centred, am a let-down and a worry, untrustworthy, irresponsible, self-centred etc.
She treats me more like a pet that can be wheeled out for amusement, as I suppose I am quite eccentric, a bit young-at-heart, used to have an interesting/unusual career and lead a slightly odd life. This makes me a good auntie as I can be very silly with her baby and possibly a good topic of conversation with her friends? ...I have no idea what she gets out of having me around when I reflect on how she treats me.

In a personal review of my life over the past week, I have realised she is the only one who has really had this message towards/about me and I never thought to question it.

Her partner treats me like this but his style is different - eye-rolling and passive aggressive. She is direct and rude, or analyses me under the guise of psychology, telling me my faults: 'it's actually really sad, because you're so selfish you can't see that...' 'i'm really sad, because I feel like I can't trust you to be there for me... ' etc. This latter is because six years ago she had(?) to go to the pub for drinks with a group of people, one of which was the best friend of a man she had been dating for a few months, and wanted me to go with her for emotional support. I was in a pretty bad place, hadn't left my house for months, but even so would have gone had I realised what a big deal it was to her and that it'd be brought up every few months for the next several years ('see, I know I can't rely on you, and that makes me sad...')

The result is I can never do enough for her. Nothing I do is good enough, no amount of gestures can convince her that I am not terminally selfish, I am scared to talk to her in case I 'slip up' and 'reveal my selfishness' - accused of turning the conversation back to me, not asking about her enough. (As per my long thread, I looked after the baby day and night for four days and got accused of being 'the most selfish person in the world', and told I was only looking after him because I wanted to). I have just realised it and I am really tired of it.

I will say I have massively moved on from my old thread - I can't believe how unsure of myself I was at the start. Rereading it is what made me start to question the dynamic with my sister.

The advice I received was like water in a desert of confusion, so as I cannot discuss this with anyone in real life, nor seem to get any perspective no matter how hard I try and think it though, I would appreciate any other points of view, even if I have to be told off or visit my own culpability in this situation.

Sorry these don't require replies, I just need it all both out of my head and heart, and logged

I haven't had anyone in real life to tell this stuff to so I just need it downloaded out of me

You are going through some massive revelations very bravely OP

When her son (17 at the time) decided to come on a trip to England with his schoolfriend (year before I went to them) I booked two solid weeks of activities, from gigs to football matches to snuck them into nightclubs to west end shows to comedy gigs to arcades to movie theatres to themed restaurants to regional cities etc and drove them everywhere for two weeks, my parents gave them cousin a few hundred pounds spending money and even the mate got about a hundred quid, my dad moved out of the big room (poor dad again!!) so they could set up another camp bed in it, they camped out on my computer all night watching music videos

thank you sticky i feel so petty but feel it is my time to be heard

oh i forgot the fucking national theatre tickets, and the gig was an o2 gig, the comedy was the comedy store, the west end show was big, the themed restaurant took fucking ages to plan

would it have been so hard for him just to be nice to me when I went to visit them

The boys actually came in 2009 (2 years before I went) looking at my email west end ticket receipts (actually he was 18 then, making him 20 when I went, she was definitely 15 when I went); one year before I went, aunt and uncle came with daughter in summer 2010. She had decided as brother had brought a mate she had the right to bring one too so asked her friend, then a second friend apparently 'invited herself' and by the time anyone thought to ask my mum if it was ok, she was never going to say no.

Similar extravaganza, Row E tickets to legally blonde with sheridan, lunch on a thames cruise, hanging with three 14 year olds in camden, oxford circus, ice bar, london eye, etc etc

Kids are pretty unpleasant, they again all sit at my computer and find my notebooks in the study draewr and read through them, asking me pointed questions the next day

Put their luggage all over my mum's white sofa, none of them give a shit

Aunt primes me and my sister in detail about how cousin has apparently been teased for various extremely private physical issues, we take her to lunch and I open up about how I was mistreated in school, she just asks for the name of my bully, then asks how to spell it (??)

Then one of the mates gets grumbling appendix and (who?) (ME!) sits with her in paediatric ward while everyone goes to Legally Blonde, then to gourmet French restaurant in Covnet Garden that I booked

Give aunt a small handmade wooden present I made for the boy when I was about 12 but had repeatedly forgotten to give him (hand painted name sign for room, not babyish), she said she had bought too many fake handbags from Camden market and could not fit it in her luggage

You are utterly adorable , you know that? Absolutely fantastic. I wish wish wish you were my sister, would be immensely proud if you if you were my daughter, in love with you if you were my niece but especially, oh my God, my aunt.

I'm not kidding you.

I think you are still in shock in that you are coming to terms with the facts that those who are closest to you are not on your side.
There are a lot on MNet who have been in this difficult situation.
My heart goes out to you.
If you can, see it as a privilege that you come to this realisation while you still have plenty of time to find and meet people who do care about you.
I am sure if you give your approximate location there will be people who will be up for talk and chatting.
However, it would be wise to seek out councilling and make time to reduce contact. Remember, you are not responsible for any of their behaviour. But you can change how you react.

Good luck!

Why am I so angry

I have learnt a very strong lesson, and it is a good one, in that one should not expect anything after giving (time, resources), the act of giving should be pleasure in itself, and honestly it now is for me

I sound so mean to expect reciprocation, so petty now I list things, but it was not material things I think we were thinking of, it was to make their time wonderful and memorable

Give over, they're vile. Nothing to do with giving to receive. Bloody hurtful, cruel, spiteful and thoroughly unpleasant.

Thank you GeekLove

I think I feel so unsteady on my feet, sounds odd but with this possible ASD or whatever is nixing my social interactions (could just be lack of confidence! A gaslit person!), I feel even if there were people out there, I would be unable to connect with them in the way I see people love and laugh and connect

But that is just a reaction, let me give it some deeper thought and feeling, even reading your words I can imagine a world beyond and I can feel the world expanding

I am probably not ready for contact, it sounds illogical but I am beyond certain I would be a disappointment to anyone who got in touch, I would feel that pressure of disappointing them, it sounds wrong as I am typing it but I can't get out of that headspace, but I will think over its illogicity over the next few days, letting it all sink in, rereading and reseeing

Oh Springydaffs

oh my God I needed to hear that, it makes my heart swell

oh my Gosh oh my Gosh oh my Gosh

I am soaking it up and in.

I do love my nephew so much, I think I make him happy too, I will always be there for him

I think you can still be here for your nephew but maybe you need some time alone to re-connect with yourself. I am sure you can find parts of your nature that you like and are fond off and get to know yourself. Do stuff you want to do, even if it is simple like read up on something in the library or watch something fun on Iplayer.

The longest relationship anyone has is with themselves.

who is the npd - you or your sister? definitely definitely definitely your sister. there is absolutely nothing wrong with you, other than you've had to suffer from dealing with your psychopathic sister! i feel really sorry for your parents too.

i personally think the only way you'll get over this lifetime of horrendous experiences is by standing up to her. i hope that one day your parents will have the strength to do it too.

let her drive away, let her text and email. don't read them. she'll get over it when she realises that she can't shit all over you any more. you may have to go nc though.

good luck - you sound really lovely.

A baby sensory tent! That sounds wonderful! You sound lovely.

You know this ASD thing you keep mentioning? I don't really think it can apply to you. If it did, I don't think you would be putting such effort into trying to ensure other people's happiness in quite such a proactive way - arranging nice days and activities for your cousins, making a sensory tent for your nephew, worrying about your dad and his sleeping arrangements etc.

It's interesting that your aunt says that her H's mother was evil. If it's true then it sounds like the family dynamic has possibly been screwed up for generations. Perhaps your uncle chose his wife (who sounds vile) because she was similar to his mother, familiarity etc. Maybe if your mother was badly parented, it explains her inability to parent your sister well. Perhaps your dad has been an enabler? Maybe not - maybe it all started with your sister.

I wonder if you should find yourself a few stock phrases to trot out to your sister when she is being abusive. Things like "you're being abusive and I'm not standing/sitting here listening to it. Speak to me when you can be pleasant". Then walk away from the situation. Or when she is shouting at you to fetch something or do something, perhaps say "no, not until you use some manners", then ignore her.

Ultimately, I think no or low contact would be the best thing, but perhaps some coping strategies that you can practice and use as the situations arise would help in the meantime.

You know, you sound like such a kind and thoughtful person. Really. I would love to be your friend.

You do indeed sound like a very lovely person, I would be honoured if I knew you in real life :)

Next time your sister is around and being unpleasant - say "Oh dear the giant toddler is kicking off again" or say "Boriiiiiiiiiing!". Just roll your eyes and ask if it doesn't get tiring, all this unnecessary unpleasantness.

Concentrate on going out somewhere and meeting new friends. Try differenct clubs. The reason you don't have any is as you say, you pushed them away as you felt you did not deserve them, you were a bad person and no one would like you so you removed them before they proved it to you. You must stop thinking like this. You DO deserve good friends -just don't try too hard as some people may well treat you like a door mat. If you are out having fun with new found friends, you are not in having to put up with your idiot sister and will be having a much better life than her - something else for her to whinge about.

Oh, OP, such excellent help you are getting here. It is all becoming clear.

Just wanted to say that when one's family puts one in a role, you really need to be away from the family to be able to act outside that role.

I have no particular complaints about my family but I was always treated as the dizzy one who lost everything, was clumsy and made mistakes. Nothing dreadful or nasty just the normal kinds of labels people put on those around them. I live thousands of miles from them but if I spend too much time with any of them I lose all my confidence and these things become true again.

Best of luck. It must feel strange to realise how much of this stuff is not your fault or responsability.

Your aunt sounds a lot like your sister.

Family dynamics are often passed on. Sometimes I don't think it necessary to have witnessed it, you can inherit it. It sounds like your aunt is as horrible as your sister and possibly your mother has spent her life suffering her. Possibly your mother has been trained to appease narcissists and she's passed that training on to you. Maybe it was the same with your grandmother and her sister.

Earlier on you said your parents were very close to their siblings. Did you mean this aunt ?

First of all thank you so much all for your lovely comments.
Gosh they mean a lot to me to hear.
It is like my heart is supported in a cat's cradle of strength when I read them.

Deathray, thank you, yes you are right.
It sounds so odd but I literally do not know where a boundary should be. I think this is one of the reasons I was wondering about ASD, because it is literally like, I can imagine acting as a person with real good boundaries, and I can imagine being a person with none, and it is just like a shrug to me what you would apply and when. It seems to occur naturally to most people where the line in the sand is, just this innate sense of 'now now chap, this is taking the mickey a little'. I have no idea what an unreasonable demand is, equally I have no idea what a reasonable one is, similarly what is reasonable behaviour towards me, what is not. All these things are then multivariate depending on the length of relationship etc.

I do sort of try and disappear when I am walking down the road simply, worried about people taking offence at me or looking at someone too long and them becoming aggressive, or clipping someone by accident and so forth. I have had utter strangers be incredibly rude to me on the underground for instance, notably once when we were actually taking the uncle's family plus two girls as above to the boat cruise, I was trying to get everyone having fun with a word game (!) and this man told me I was being too loud and to just shut up, and another man joined in. The whole of my family and their family just sat by silently as these two middle aged well-dressed men (strangers to each other) dressed me down, and of course the kids brought it up again in the middle of the meal 'oh my god that man actually just told you to shut up. 'Shut up' ' and they all started doing impressions of them. My aunt brought it up again at the end of the meal, when I said (lying) that it didn't bother me she said 'oh really, that's funny, because you're flushed red just now remembering it [long pause while she looks at me with a head-tilt] I would have said something, but it's not my country, so I don't know how you do things here'.

Then another time I was coming back from a hospital visit (in town) on the bloody tube and in a carriage with three other people sitting in it at my end (of what, 14 or 16 seats?) I had put my little carrier bag on the seat next to me. This woman came and basically sat on my stuff and I had to drag it out from under her, then she started talking about people taking liberties or whatever - it was so unpleasant

Similar has happened on other trains.
Have no idea why I am so traumatised by this stuff! Remembre every detail.

So very recently I went to an appointment at a local hospital and was just walking along the corridor, actually consciously not trying to take up space as it were, and this woman sort of crossed into my path and said very rudely 'Yeah just walk in front of me' and I suddenly got angry and said something about not being responsible if she imagined I did something I didn't and of course I picked the wrong person to stand up to as she was twice my size (height) and a little off-kilter and started with foul language right there in the hospital corridor!

Ok I want to put this down too, the most recent one, a woman has been delivering from one of those cut-price courier companies to our house for 10 years and has been quite intrusive about my state of employment, life, etc - just stares at me and asks questions, is over-familiar so I am momentarily confused and feel obligated to just answer her. About 8 years ago I refused a parcel (on the advice of the retailer), and she shouted at me on my doorstep and told me if I didn't accept it and post it back she wouldn't get her pound. I didn't accept it and she turned on her heel, got in her car, slammed the door and drove off.

She continued to deliver for a while and an uneasy politeness developed, didn't see her for a few years, then she delivered a couple of things last year and was again asking all these questions about my life/employment status!
Then I had occasion (again on advice of retailer) to refuse a package and she started to say it wasn't technically possible; I told her the retailer told me to do it and she threatened that it would go missing in the network; when I told her I just wanted to refuse the parcel, and it was clear I wouldn't back down, she went ballistic on the doorstep, shouting at me, I said this happened only once 8 years ago out of many deliveries 'YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER THEN SHOULDN'T YOU' and stormed off.
I rang the retailer so they could keep an eye on the parcel and make sure it didn't go missing, and they were horrified and wanted to report her but I was scared, knowing she knows where I live.

I tried to make sure deliveries to us came from different couriers but inevitably one came through and she turned up again. She was deeply unpleasant, muttering under her breath.

I don't know why I take this stuff to heart and remember it so clearly, moments of humiliation I almost replay and feel all the emotions of them, it is impossible to process this garbage

It does feel better to get it out of my heart and put it down here though

Hi Agatha

Well I had quite a good relationship with my grandma but my aunt (mum's brother's wife) put some poisonous seeds into my head!

I know her kids adored her and were always looking for her approval.

You know, and this goes for what baldingballerina said too, the relationship of my sister to my mum is very like my mum's eldest brother to my grandma.

He is every box cleanly checked off on any NPD checklist. No questions asked. He is professionally the most successful of all the siblings, (was also prodigiously clever), (would do things like swap with the driver that was supposed to take them to school at the age of 12 (!)), just always in control and contemptuous of everyone else, charm personified when he wants what he wants, my god I have never seen the like, highly respected in his field, and they had this bizarre codependent relationship where he lived in an upstairs apartment from his parents all his life, till my grandma died recently. He's had a couple of marriages and couple of sets of kids, but never moved away from there. He was so horrible to her, blaming her for everything that's gone wrong in his life (not a lot has from the outside!), I've seen him rant and rave at her, he would come home every evening from work and just let at her for an hour, same 'pinning in room' tactics, she has no choice but to acquiesce, etc. (then change the subject as if nothing had happened and go upstairs)
He blames everyone for everything that happened to him, apparently his first wife trapped him into getting engaged (it's such a bizarre story it hardly makes sense), apparently she used his first set of kids against him in divorce which is why he hasn't seen them in 20 years, so on, so forth

We really got on when I was a teen as I didn't know he was to be tiptoed around at that point and I think he found that quite refreshing! Plus we had a lot of hobbies in common and he would teach me technical stuff.
In adulthood though he treats me with derision and suspicion.

He has also a massive sense of financial entitlement despite being very well off and has, via pleading and wheedling with his siblings, managed to get a significant chunk that was not willed to him, just to get him to stop

The funniest thing is, my sister intensely dislikes him and is distrustful of him has always seen him for what he is, my mum's brothers are a favourite topic of her to bait my mum with as she finds many faults with each of them