How do I tell him I don't want to go back to work?

[DontGiveAwayTheHomeworld]

DS starts school in two weeks. He's going straight into full-time, which frees up a large chunk of the day for me. Because of this, DH has started on about me going back to work. The thing is, I don't really want to.

We don't desperately need the money, things are tight but we manage. I never had anything resembling a career, and the only work I could realistically do is shop/cleaning work - I was more than happy to give that up, and I really don't want to go back to that, particularly if there's no financial gain (which there wouldn't be after childcare.) Besides that, I've been working on a novel for the last year and a bit, and the dream is to write full- time. The extra time I gain from DS being at school would be the perfect transition to that, but DH sees it as just a hobby. Which it is, I guess, but I'd love to make it my career, even if I don't make much money from it.

I just don't know how to talk to DH about all this, he's all but decided I'll be going back to full-time work outside the home, to the point where he's getting annoyed at the fact I'm not really looking. It's really eating at my confidence - like I'm not worth anything without a job.

He's entitled to feel resentful that you aren't contributing. BUT, you are more than entitled to put your foot down about him forcing you into the first mindless job that comes along, simply to earn something, while HE has a career he enjoys. You don't have to accept that.

First things first. His attitude implies that he's seen you as 'not working' for a long time now and there's more than a sniff of 'it's high time you contributed'. That needs sorting RIGHT NOW. Tot up the costs of childcare/housework etc. through these years of you being there at home. Present it to him and say, 'This discussion starts from the assumption that so far, we've contributed EQUALLY. First of all, you respect that, please. Secondly, let's not forget that it's that contribution from me that now leaves YOU in a job you enjoy, and ME possibly facing a hard slog to get to a similar position, with less of a cv and much less of a pension. I've made some serious sacrifices - we start from the point of appreciating them, please'.

With that in mind, it makes sense for you both to think strategically. No, it makes no financial sense for you to drudge off out to a minimum wage job, spending most of it on childcare. Dismiss that.

It makes more sense for you to train in some way. Not only will you eventually be better off financially, but this would be a way to keep flexibility while your DC is still on school hours and is very young - you will STILL need to be about and available, really. If you aren't, you soon see your salary disappearing on emergency childcare and after-school stuff.

The writing: if you are already at draft stage, I would put it to your DH that it does make sense for you to get this book together, and see if anything happened. After that, training. Related fields - teaching English, publishing? Give it this year for your book- your end of the deal is to work hard on it! - then training. Apply now for courses.

This would seem to me to be the best way to play to your strengths, work towards something that is going to give you the same level of job satisfaction he has, and place your eggs in the various baskets which are more likely to come up trumps financially.

Sorry TheWord , I seem to have got stuck in rebuttal mode.

There are posts on this thread that will make a writing career sound exotic and unattainable to many. It isn't. Fiction is probably harder, I admit.

The fact is that it is not necessary. Nor for many writers is it actually desirable

I did make that point myself some pages ago, in fact.

Can you work 3 days and write 2 days?

Many famous authors have fitted in their writing along with their full time jobs (though embarrassingly an old, and poor, example of Anthony Trollope springs to mind He used to get up early if I recall correctly. Very early before work to write)

I'd retrain if that's acceptable to you, and/or find an occupation you do like.

arsenic I don't think anyone has told OP to give up writing. Just that she should be aware how unlikely success will be and so she needn't worry about getting a job too. The only person who seems to tho lot necessary not to work I'm order to write is the op!

I don't think anyone has told OP to give up writing

A few have come close.

It's quite intense being the OP when a thread goes 'rah'.

Castlemilk has some good, practical suggestions.

I'm not surprised the OP hasn't yet found a job she enjoys. She had a baby at 19, hasn't worked since, and hasn't got herself qualified and trained for anything. The most sensible thing she can do is to find a field of work where she can realistically make a financial contribution, and continue the writing on the side and see if she strikes lucky. You have to think long term when it comes to the world of work... It's not just about money in your pocket now, but future prospects, pension etc. and being perfectly honest, many people have to work through the struggle and grind in the early years... Very few people walk straight into a well paid career where they love every minute of it. Its a bit of a MN 'thing', this myth that the men are out there having wonderful high flying careers where they enjoy every second- oh and get to have lunch breaks, go to the toilet without a toddler clinging on to them blah blah blah- IME any fairly senior position comes through hard work, often with a dollop of stress and a few knock backs too.

There is a huge spectrum between taking the first time NMW job which comes along, and not working at all yet expecting the DH to continue full time to support a hobby. If the OP is serious she needs to start from the point that they are both equal adults and that both of them having a better balance in their lives will benefit the family

I think Castlemilk has nailled it.

The thing is Lines, most jobs are at least 75% grind once you are in them, but the OP's DH (and anyone fortunate) has at least had the chance to choose the field he wants to grind away in. Ditto the word 'drudgery' that the *OP' is getting such a hard time for.

Absolutely- that's my point. Upsides and downsides to everything- including jobs, and being a SAHP. Which is why it makes a lot of sense to share things around a bit more rather than one half of the couple having all the burden of earning (because as you say, even if he's chosen what to grind away in, it doesn't mean it's all a bed of roses) and the other half saying 'I don't want to do paid work at all'. Far too black and white.

Just turn it round and say he says tomorrow he wants to stay at home now and you work full time? Would you agree and if not why not?

Er, 'cos she wants to write a book?

I still think my suggestion (that the Op has ignored or missed) of training to be a childminder who only does the before and after school care is the best solution, she'll still have exactly the same amount of time to write, as she'd only be working when her DS would be needing her attention (before and after school) anyway, no childcare costs, she could be fully trained and set up by the start of the January term, on the prices in our town, 2 children before and after school would bring in about £700-800 a month, so easing the family budget issues, still getting to write while DS and the other mindees are at school, it's not a 'love it career' but a way to solve the family finances issues for 2-3 years while she dedicates some time to her writing.

A solution that solves all the various issues in a way that keeps everyone happy.

Mary, what if the OP isn't suited to childcare. It's the wrong profession just to do because you don't want to actually go out to work or pay for your own childcare.

Also depends on the area. Five days breakfast club and after school club here only costs £170. Deducting food, petrol etc would have to come from that if a CM.

The OPs DH may enjoy his job some of the time but that doesn't mean it was his first choice. If he was 19 like the OP when the baby arrived it's likely he had to take any job to support his child and wife as she didn't want to work.

The DH doesn't want to be the sole earner and has the right to say that. If the OP wants to write, she can do so around work like others. If she was truly serious she would have pursued long before now. Most children go to pre school or she could have worked on it in the evenings. I suspect now it's more a get out of work card.

I don't think the OP is wishing to impose her choice upon her DH. At the moment, they have different perspectives and she is thinking out her perspective before putting it to him. Partly because she's afraid he'll say no. She wasn't expecting to be flamed, so she didn't take care to sound responsible and unselfish. I expect she could have framed exactly the same concepts in a way that would have left her less open to accusations of everything under the sun.

We don't live in a society where it's often possible for a 'getting by' family to simply allow mum to retrain and find a job she likes, especially if the breadwinner (who has a satisfying career, incidentally!) is ordering her to take the first dead-end job she can get her hands on. So with a job matching her skill set probably out of reach for now, she's just wondering if maybe the current situation - which has worked tolerably well and in which she is hardly idle - could be continued for a short time in order for her to pursue a dream she's cherished for 20 years. And she's wondering how to put it to her DP so he'll see what she's getting at and they can talk about it.

It's interesting (whole thread is interesting!) how many posters feel it's the automatic right of the DH to be 'supported' by another salary if he wishes to be - and that, if things are 'tight' financially, this means it is the automatic responsibility of the SAHM to return to work in order to make things less tight. This reaction probably wouldn't have been so strong on a different website. Many mumnetters seem to belong to educated middle class families that are struggling to keep their heads above water in a world of crazy mortgages and myriad hidden costs, proud of their right to work but often forced to do so as they desperately try to stay on the right side of the comfortable/poverty-stricken chasm whilst simultaneously managing to achieve an 'acceptable' lifestyle that is often rather aspirational. This is not automatically a 'right' way to live and the OP's DP isn't within his rights to demand it, necessarily; after all, he's appreciated the job she does within the home up to now. (Five hours extra a day, barring sickness and school holidays is not a huge amount of time to play around with and the OP is right to think that writing can be very time consuming. And not everyone has the capacity to survive or produce good work by getting up at 5am, admirable as it is).

We hark back to the good old days when people were satisfied with less but we don't know what to do with a woman who says she doesn't see the point of suffering to acquire more, given that basic needs are amply met. I disagree with posters saying that the OP's DP has the right to demand that she provide more for the household finances. Some posters have felt sorry for that poor man bearing all the burden of being the breadwinner, but in fact he's just going to work, same as he'd be doing if the OP also worked. The pressure of getting by with the salary he earns is something is a shared pressure and needs to be addressed together. Unless he's feeling personally pressurised by his job and would like to leave it for something less well paid, he's not necessarily to be pitied for having to be 'a bread winner', provided he's doing the job of his choice and his partner is fulfilling a purpose within the family that they've agreed is important and meaningful. Until now, that has been the case. Nothing wrong with being frugal, it's not an infringement of anyone's human rights. The OP is not a waste of space, she has been and is continuing to play a vital role within her family unit. That's what is important within a marriage, not who is earning the money. Provided there is negotiation and agreement, and the OP has never (unlike her husband) hinted that she is planning to skip dialogue. In fact, she seems to have come to mumsnet because she's pretty sure she's going to have to fight for dialogue.

Yes, the couple have to agree on their values but neither partner is free to dictate. In a breadwinner/home-maker set up, both jobs should be equally valued with neither partner able to 'terminate' the role of the other. Now, the OP is going to have, realistically, perhaps five free hours each day, barring sickness and holidays.

The OP is uncomfortable with the automatic assumption that she will return to a menial job that she hates, presumably sandwiched between a day packed from beginning to end with childcare and household chores. Quite frankly, I'm also uncomfortable with a group of educated, progressive woman declaring it's her moral 'duty' to the family to do just that. Have we as women moved from a life in which it's our moral duty to 'drudge' at home to one in which we can choose whether to look after our own children - but must then subject ourselves to a life of drudgery outside the home thereafter?

DaisyFlowerChain The OP has been writing seriously in scraps of time for a while, but recognises that it's going to take a period of concentrated, focused effort to bring her project to fruition. She may well be right - some people are like that.

Yes, everyone expressing the viewpoint that this OP needs to start contributing financially to the family is an educated, middle-class female professional who goes to work to service a materialistic, aspirational lifestyle.

I think you are anxious about the change in September and thinkyou want to stay at home.

But he reality is you will get bored and lonely with the longer days alone.

My advice would be talk to your dH about how you feel, then give yourself until Christmas to decide what you really wanted to do.

I decided to retrain on a part time basis which would Take until all dc are out of primary school. Then the dc are older which frees up more time for a fulfilling job.

Baby steps!!

Oh and also take on a small cleaning job for some extra cash, a few hours work will give you money and self esteem

OP

I'm not going to pass judgement on your desire not to work, but on how you are tackling the writing...

I understand your desire to write but....

Can I ask if you have had any tutoring with your writing from professionals?

If you are serious about writing then I'd expect you to have been on some courses or workshops- think Aarvon Foundation, Faber and Faber, Curtis & Brown, not to mention an MA in Creative Writing by any number of unis. Do you belong to any writing groups, or meet other writers?

Writing is a craft and very very few first time authors strike lucky first time.

I am employed 'creatively' and know it's not all you think it is. I have a friend who has had 4 novels published and is struggling to get her 5th accepted. Freelancing is no easier- and in fact is harder TBH.

I've written 17K words of my novel in my spare time - without really trying. I work as well. Even if you work you ought to be able to write 1000 words a day as a draft.

Then- once your draft is completed you need an agent- harder than finding a publisher nowadays. As an unknown writer you do not have a chance really of a publisher looking at you unless you have an agent.

Being a full time writer and not working at anything else is the end of the line- not the start. You ARE asking to have time on a hobby.

If you really want to write and complete your novel, you will- even if you are working. Many successful writers get up at 6am and write for an hour before the kids are up or the school run starts.

My own view is that you are living a bit of a fantasy and using the writing as a scapegoat so you don't need to bite the bullet and get some work.
As a writer you need to expose yourself to people and experiences- even a few hours a week in a coffee shop as a waitress would give you material for your book(s).

I also suggest STRONGLY that you get someone to review your writing. Bloomsbury do a critique for £250 where you get 30 mins in London where your novel is looked at.

You need to do something like this or some serious writing coaching to see how good you are before you decide to give up the hunt for a job for writing.

Many mumnetters seem to belong to educated middle class families that are struggling to keep their heads above water in a world of crazy mortgages and myriad hidden costs, proud of their right to work but often forced to do so as they desperately try to stay on the right side of the comfortable/poverty-stricken chasm whilst simultaneously managing to achieve an 'acceptable' lifestyle that is often rather aspirational

So true.

Oh and also take on a small cleaning job for some extra cash, a few hours work will give you money and self esteem

You don't know that a cleaning job will be beneficial for her self esteem. There is evidence to suggest the opposite.

There are lots of types of jobs out there.

it si an issue to be decided before marriage. We agreed we would both work full time. If later one had changed their mind that is a massive change of the basis on which you settled down with someone. Here they obviously agreed housewife/husband for 5 years which is not something most couples agreed but some do. If it was always agreed she would return full time then it is pretty awful to change now. What if he said tomorrow you've had your 5 years at home now I want 5 at home writing a book whilst you go to work to keep the family? That would be fair.

(And I wrote books around a full time job and 5 children so of course you can write and work full time and have children. There is nothing special about me except capacity for hard work).

I'm not sure you really have the right to tell your husband you aren't going back to work. If he was happy with the income stream of the household presumably he would have couched the subject in terms of would you like to get back to work/retrain not good now you can go back to work.

My advice would be to at least meet him half way because lots of this thread shows how he may see things. I don't write but plenty have come on to say a paid job and writing aren't mutually exclusive so hopefully that's what you have taken from this.

I'm astonished you expected a different response than to be accused of being selfish.

Pinkfrocks really disagree that a serious writer needs to go on courses. Money should flow to the writer, not from the writer, isn't that what they say?

Courses may be a way of showing 'seriousness' but so is the writing itself. I can tell when I'm taking my own writing seriously because of the time I give it (around paid work and childcare). People who don't take writing seriously are - in my opinion - those people who say 'oh yeah I could write a book' 'I've always wanted to write a book!' 'I've got a great idea but no time' or 'I'm a writer but haven't written a word in 12 months because X, Y, Z".

No one needs expensive (£250 will be a fortune to some) editing or coaching.

BUT I do agree with you that feedback is useful - you can get this for free though.

Absolute Writers is a great forum, with a 'Share Your Work' section once you have enough posts.

Critique Circle lets you get short stories or chapters of a novel critiqued for free by your peers - you just need to do some critiquing yourself in return.

There's a lot of similar places out there - those are two I've happened to use.

Lots of people will 'beta read' for others if you are also willing to do the same.

Critiquing etc is an invaluable skill for a writer - I've learned loads by reading other people.

And of course when you start submitting to agents you sometimes (if you're good) get feedback too.

Knowing whether you have talent or not in a vacuum is tricky. I've worked in book publishing/book editing/sub-editing/proof-reading and have written for a living. I know I can write a competent sentence if I have to (not always on Mumsnet when I am rushing, mind!) But do I have that extra spark? That talent for characterisation or dialogue or scene-setting? I really have no idea. That's why I reach out to other people. But I don't pay them :)

The writing is pie in the sky and will not put food on the husband's table so utterly unfair to allow one partner to mess around doing unpaid arts whether they are male or female whilst the other has their back to the grindstone.

The writing is pie in the sky and will not put food on the husband's table

Nice Greengrow. Supportive.

Why the husband's table, BTW?