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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can't work out how I feel about my bizarre relationship (long, sorry)

381 replies

snowiswhite · 19/08/2014 14:00

Have changed my name for this post. I don't really know where to start with this, and I fear it could turn out to be far too long, so will try to keep it as concise as possible (which isn't very). Apologies in advance if I leave out too many details.

Me and DP have been together since 2005. We have DD and DS, aged 4 and nearly 3. I fell head over heels for DP very shortly after meeting him: it really seemed we were soul mates, and I was sincerely convinced for many years that it was very, very rare for a couple to love each other as much as we loved each other.

Shortly after meeting DP, I received an email from someone I didn't know, warning me that DP was a liar and that I should check everything. It was a strange email in that there was info in there that could only have come from someone who had been spying on our instant messenger conversations and emails. To cut a long story short, it turned out to be from DP's ex-girlfriend, who somehow had gained access to his emails etc. She had used a fake name to send me the email. All in all, she hadn't given me any reason to believe she was a reliable source of information, and I dismissed her (after an angsty conversation with DP).

Over the next 6.5 years, I could never shake the sense that DP was lying to me - about everything. This seemed so implausible to me at the time - after all, who (outside of a soap opera) would lie about everything? - that I dismissed it, and attributed this feeling to the fact that DP's ex had written me that strange email near the start of our relationship. We went on to live together, to get engaged, and to have DD and DS.

To cut a very long story short(ish), it turned out that he was indeed lying to me about literally everything. The most shocking lie was pretending to be terminally ill for several years starting from around the time DD was conceived in early 2009 - even going as far to get a scar tattooed on. Aside from that, he would lie about our finances (I no longer had a bank account (because he saw to it, I later realised) and he pretended he was wealthy when in fact we were on benefits), his intentions to marry me (he 'made' literally hundreds of appointments for us to have a no-frills reg office wedding, all of which were cancelled due to unforeseen aspects of his 'treatment' - it later emerged that he was still married to his ex wife), and he borrowed £1000s from my family despite having no way of repaying them.

Throughout all this, I suspected him constantly, but dismissed my suspicions for various reasons. Partly it was because the lies simply didn't make sense: I was working on the assumption that if someone lies to you, it's because they stand to gain something by doing so, and as far as I could see, he stood to gain nothing (quite the reverse in many cases). Partly it was because, as mentioned above, I was afraid that I was being unduly influenced by his ex's email. And partly because, when you think the love of your life is dying, you are afraid that your mind is playing tricks on you: of course you would prefer to believe that they have made up their illness, because that would be preferable to them dying, so that is a reason to dismiss your suspicion that they aren't really ill.

So, fast forward to mid-2012. DD is 2.5 and DS is nearly a year old. For nearly 2 years, we have been living rent-free (or, rather, on DP's constant promise of paying rent) in a totally unsuitable and frankly dangerous-for-kids annex of the home of some lovely relatives of mine. I had not gone back to work after DD was born, and spent my days at home, in the middle of nowhere, with no car, no bank account, 2 small kids to look after, while DP goes out every single day for hospital treatment. All I would do with my life, every day, is feed the kids and take them out for walks. Almost every day I am expecting that we are going to have our no-frills wedding, and every time I hope that this time it will go ahead, but DP calls with some reason why it has had to be cancelled. And almost every day I am expecting that today, finally, after a zillion hiccups, our joint bank account will finally be sorted out and we can get access to DP's massive savings and repay my relatives the money we owe them - but this never happens (N.B. I am not mercenary, I didn't care about living the high life, I just wanted a normal life and not to be in debt to my relatives). Writing all this is making my chest constrict, and maybe you can imagine the enormous stress I was under. It was really difficult to cope with all this, but 'knowing' that DP had a far more difficult battle to fight (i.e. his illness) made me feel guilty for worrying about my own troubles.

Anyway, in mid-2012, DP's excuses and stories started to build up to the extent that they become really quite implausible, and DP himself was starting to behave more erratically, presumably with the stress of keeping all the lies going. Even so, it was only after a long conversation with one of my relatives that I started to confront the possibility that DP was lying about his illness. (An aside: by this point, everyone else in my family had worked out he was lying, but they never said anything about it to me. Either they felt awkward about it or they thought I had access to more information to support my belief in him. But the fact that they all seemed to believe him itself made me think he must be telling the truth, and made me feel guilty for doubting him.) I spoke to DP on the phone - he'd gone to the hospital (or rather pretended to) as usual - and I gently asked him if he was really ill, and that maybe the problem was psychological rather than physical. Immediately he admitted it, if 'admitted' is the right term (given that, as I'll explain, he had trouble distinguishing lies from reality) - he said something like, 'yes, maybe you're right'.

From here, it's quite difficult to explain. It has turned out not to be a case of him consciously and maliciously deciding to lie. He genuinely seemed to have come to believe his own lies. I went to the GP with him and he was referred for a mental health assessment, and diagnosed with dissociative disorder, depression, and anxiety. He had large gaps in his memory and seemed not very capable of distinguishing reality from the fantasy he had invented. Over the months and years since (yes, we are still together), it has turned out that some very awful things have happened to him, and that he has been lying about things since childhood as a way to make himself feel better about himself and more important than he believes he is (he basically believes he is worthless). I think that he has been lying so long that lying comes as naturally to him as telling the truth does to the rest of us, and so it is very difficult for him to stop: much of the time, the decision to lie isn't a conscious choice.

He genuinely struggles wiith this and tries his best to get better. He has taken all the help he has been offered in terms of counselling - which isn't very much, and in my non-professional opinion he hasn't been offered the right sort of thing (basically he sees a counsellor and talks about his past, whereas I think he should be having something like CBT that would focus on getting him to stop lying, which is the root of all our problems). When I realised that we were penniless and on benefits, I saw that I would need to go back to work. I am very highly qualified but work in an extremely competitive industry where jobs are hard to come by. We lived in a shitty council flat, on benefits, for a year while I worked every spare waking minute at trying to get back to work, and eventually I did get a job. Last autumn we moved out of the shitty council estate and into a privately rented house in a nicer area.

My family, understandably, want little to do with DP after all this came out. However, whereas people tended to assume that he'd just leave after he'd been rumbled, he has not. While I've been working, he has tirelessly been a full-time dad. He is a wonderful father: far more patient than me, he adores our children and fills their days with fun things: they have planted flowers in the garden together, learned to ride bikes, etc, and he is involved with their pre-school as a committee member. At the same time he keeps our home in order, does all our grocery shopping, cleans and does the washing, etc. His only 'me time' without the kids are a night in the pub once a week with some friends who know nothing about his strange history (he doesn't get drunk, and doesn't drink much in general), and playing sport once a week during the summer. I am not trying to paint a romantic picture of him here - what I am trying to do is make the point that, whilst the lying etc might make it easy to view him as a villain, he has done his utmost to do the right thing since the problem has been identified.

The problem, though, is that he does still lie sometimes. I can't trust him not to. Sometimes he will admit it out of the blue, without me having pressured him to tell the truth, and he will be full of remorse. But sometimes when he lies, I know he is lying, but he won't admit it - and maybe can't admit it. He is not getting the right sort of mental health help to stop this, and we can't afford private treatment at the moment. And I'm left feeling that I'm dealing with it alone ... I don't really discuss it with people, and about a year ago he admitted it to his mum (which was a big deal because his mum has been through hell for various reasons recently, so he'd put off telling her). I was so pleased when he told his mum because I thought I'd have someone to talk to about it, but it hasn't worked out like that. His mum said she just needed time to digest it, then she and I would have a proper talk. But it's never happened. In the year since she found out, she's visited various family members who needed her help with various things, but she still hasn't tried to get to grips with what DP has been doing. And whilst I konw it must be upsetting for her, it also makes me see that maybe this is why DP is the way he is - he certainly doesn't seem high up her list of priorities. I feel like I've just been left holding the baby, so to speak: I'm dealing with it alone.

I never tell anyone about this. When the lies came to light, I had various friends who believed that DP was seriously ill, so I did tell them the truth in order to put them right. I rarely see them and they don't ask me about DP, perhaps understandably (what would they say?!). Everyone else - e.g. people I work with - just thinks we are a normal couple. I feel a bit like I lead a double life.

And now, I don't know whether I want this any more. I'm so tired of it all. I will always love DP, and I think he is a wonderful father, but the head-over-heels aspect of my feelings for him have gone, and I don't know if they'll come back. It's like the person I loved never existed, and whilst in the early days I was desperate to get that person back, I've sort of given up now. I know he still lies, and I really don't want it to be my problem any more - I don't want to live like this, with the stress of not being able to trust him. But, at the same time, I sort of can't imagine life without him. The children adore him. I care deeply for him and want to help him get better - I think he deserves to get better, he certainly struggles so hard with everything. I don't know what I want.

Complicating my feelings is the thought that, even if I did want out, I don't know how to get out. We live in a very expensive part of the country, and if we broke up we would have to pay for 2 households on my salary. I'm nearly 40, and hoping to buy a house in a year, otherwise I'll be too old to get a mortgage. DP could work, but we'd have to pay for childcare in that case, so wouldn't necessarily be better off. DP has occasionally said that we're not a normal couple and that if I want he will move out and find somewhere alone (presumably a crappy council bedsit), but still come over every day and look after the children. This itself breaks my heart ... his self-esteem is so low that it wouldn't even enter his head to fight for the children to live with him. He believes he deserves so little.

I have sort of lost track of what I was even wanting to ask with this post. I guess I just want to tell someone my story so that maybe, in the discussion that follows (if anyone has read this far!) I might get some clarity to my feelings.

OP posts:
snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 16:47

Lois if I don't pay for it to be repaired, ex-P can't take the children to school, go to the supermarket, etc etc. I work some distance from home, I leave at 8am and am back after 8pm. Taking a hard line on this isn't an option, unfortunately.

OP posts:
snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 16:48

thanks for the continued comments. I appreciate them all, even the ones that are very clearly frustrated at me (which I understand). I could not in good conscience have given up on him earlier - I want to be able to tell my kids when they're older that I did my utmost to make things work with their dad.

Anyway, I am not under his spell any more. I just need to make the practicalities work.

OP posts:
SeasonsEatings · 28/10/2014 17:15

I think a few people have enquired about situation with his Mum. Have you spoken to her about the lack of house?

Could she be a support for you?

Fuzzyfelt123 · 28/10/2014 17:19

Snow- I have huge respect for the kindness and empathy you've shown your DP. However it blows my mind that, despite all of this despicable behavior, and the recent diagnosis of no MH problems, you still think it's ok to leave your children with him. In fact it's unbelievable.
You had no idea about the recent lies to his DM and niece. He hasn't improved, he's just been hiding his behavior better. There are massive gaps in your knowledge about him. You have no idea what he is doing between 8am and 8pm when you're at work. This man is capable of anything, none of it good.

wooly31 · 28/10/2014 17:21

In a way, you are all colluding. You have been less than direct with the niece. I'll bet his mother is less than direct with you and the family. It's like you're under a spell. I'll bet his mother knows there is no house- just like you knew deep deep down he wasn't ill/wealthy, I think. It's amazing self deception.

And yes, ultimately I think you do have to take a hard line. Get him out and work out other childcare arrangements. If he genuinely was ill (and in hospital), you'd manage, wouldn't you? Sorry, I know that is harsh but you need to shake off the rest of the cobwebs of deceit and strike while the iron's hot. You all risk getting sucked back into a bizarre collusion otherwise. Good luck.

wooly31 · 28/10/2014 17:24

Sorry more harshness... You chose to believe him (while knowing subconsciously you didn't). Some people have astonishing powers of persuasion... I use the term incorrectly because it's not true folie a deux (because he is not psychotic) but google it. It might help free you.

Roussette · 28/10/2014 17:28

Maybe I just have a shorter fuse than you but do you honestly honestly owe him anything after what he has put you through?? Why should you have to be able to tell your DCs that you did your utmost to make things work with him? Does he deserve that? Maybe in time you will have to tell the DCs what he was really really like - a manipulative nasty liar, and I just don't understand why your patience hasn't been completely worn down.

I read the thread right from the beginning - when you wrote it - I declined to post because I what I wanted to say might have been too hurtful and you sound so kind and you so much wanted to make it all work. However, you are far too patient. You honestly need to move out, forget the mortgage thing, start from scratch, you don't have to support him surely? Isn't your peace of mind and the DC's welfare more important? Even if they are young, there are probably many mixed messages your DP is giving out and I just could not stand that thought.

You have had so many signs - the email from his ex and as for the fake scar - just that one thing alone would have had me breaking up from him because it is bizarre, untrustworthy and quite frankly, scary, behaviour and really no different to those scum who pretend to have cancer to con relatives and friends out of money.

When I read your OP I honestly thought it was some sort of film script. There was that series on telly last or this year - the guy pretended to have cancer - Malcolm Webster that was his name. He was just a liar and con man plain and simple. Some people just are.

I don't wish to sound rude or upset you even more with what you are going through, but sometimes it takes total strangers to say the unsaid.

I wish you luck with it all.

socially · 28/10/2014 17:34

OP I remember your posts about the wedding years ago.

I'm so glad you seem to be on your way out of this relationship.

What I'm wondering is whether it really is the end, given that on a practical level nothing really seems to have changed. He's still in the house etc etc. It seems too easy for you both to let this drift on for another few months/years.

snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 17:41

I will be speaking to his mum at the end of the week - I have given him that long to talk to her and come clean. TBH I'm not looking forward to the conversation. I don't think she could be much support for me, she lives a long way away, as does my family.

Re all the 'How could you have believed him?' posts ... I understand where you're coming from, and apologies if this sounds stroppy, but I'm going to stop discussing this. I've gone into it a bit earlier in the thread and I'm bored of it. Yes, he is manipulative; yes, I am extremely gullible/stupid/naive/deluded.

As to leaving my DCs with him, if you can think of a better option, please let me know. I've considered an au pair, but it's against my tenancy agreement and my landlord specifically ensured that I wouldn't be using a childminder who came to the house while I wasn't there. I started another thread under a different name a while back to try to get advice on how I could manage the childcare arrangements alone and I simply can't afford to send them somewhere outside the house for 12 hours a day. I have no family for hundreds of miles. I work 60 miles from home. Ex-P has looked after the DCs full-time since 2012, they love him, and parenting is the only thing he does extremely well. I have discussed him with 3 different psychiatrists, a psychiatric nurse, and a GP, all of whom know the details of his lying behaviour, and none of them has expressed concerns about his parenting abilities. I appreciate your concerns, but I don't think I've decided lightly to leave the DCs with him. It's the only workable option, as far as I can tell.

OP posts:
FunkyBoldRibena · 28/10/2014 17:43

I want to be able to tell my kids when they're older that I did my utmost to make things work with their dad.

And here is where you need to think things through differently. You should be thinking 'I want to be able to tell my kids that I did my utmost to protect them from their sociopath dad'.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociopath

www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

FunkyBoldRibena · 28/10/2014 17:44

I work 60 miles from home.

Move there then.

snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 17:45

What I'm wondering is whether it really is the end, given that on a practical level nothing really seems to have changed.

I only ended the relationship last night. The practical things will take time. If you're wondering whether I'll be tempted to give the relationship another go, I think that's extremely unlikely. Mentally I left him long ago. The person I fell in love with didn't exist.

OP posts:
snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 17:48

Funky

First point: yes, you have a point.
Second point: I live in an expensive part of the country and work in a way more expensive part. If the cost of living was lower closer to work, I'd definitely move. In fact, my next job move will be motivated by cost of living considerations.

OP posts:
magimedi · 28/10/2014 17:54

I've just read the full thread & my heart goes out to you, OP.

But, you sound like a very strong & sensible person & I am certain that you will work things out over time regarding housing & childcare. I wish people would realise that it can't all be sorted overnight.

Good Luck in the future.

Flowers
wooly31 · 28/10/2014 17:54

I don't think you should feel stupid for believing him at all. Look at cult leaders and what they persuade intelligent normal people to do. You have been very strong in admitting it to yourself and taking steps to separate yourself.

However, you cannot know what he is capable of because he does not confirm to normal society rules and ethics and morals. Please don't protect him. Tell people, blow it out in the open, get the truth out there and please get yourself physically away from him. You are so strong, you will be ok but please be aware his behaviour might change/worsen/increase in manipulation now he knows you want out. That's why people are worried about you.

Littleturkish · 28/10/2014 18:01

Is there any chance you can move closer to work?

I would really like to offer some practical advice and help- I've followed your thread from the beginning and if you are in the SE then please PM me and I'll try and find some rental/childcare options for you.

Good luck, I think you've been incredibly brave and I hope the removal of this man from your life will result in a better time for you and your children.

BalloonSlayer · 28/10/2014 18:26

He has also recently become involved with fundraising for the pre school and the school, and is doing a great job.

For God's sake disentangle yourself properly before he gets arrested for not putting all the non-existent money he claims to raise into the account.

ICanTotallyDance · 28/10/2014 18:30

I have just read this thread and I really wish you all the best.

You have said that you took some comfort from the people who had gone through similar stories and I would like to tell you about something similar that happened in our family, although somewhat from the other side.

My "uncle" (he is a more distant relative, but I always called him uncle) was very similar to your ex. By the time he was 25 his real tendencies had shown, at least to family, and everyone was weary of him. Unfortunately, when he was about 26/27 his brother, the only person who could really control him (by that I mean keep him on the straight and narrow), died after a long illness.

My Uncle soon after got engaged. At this we didn't like him very much and did tell the fiancée to consider carefully if this was what she wanted. They did marry and for a time seemed happy. They had a daughter and adopted a little boy but after 6 or 7 years they split. His ex-wife confided to my mother that the divorce was the biggest relief.

It then emerged that he had been lying to her for years, telling her all sorts of rubbish and using his brothers left over medical equipment to fake an illness. He had also been ringing family (although not us) asking for money and had remortgaged their home behind her back.

About ten years later he met a new women. Our family, and the ex-wife, tried to warn of his fiancée, in face-to-face meetings and, yes, an email from the ex-wife. Ultimately, the fiancée married him anyway, and for it time things seemed happy. They had two children but after eight years, they too split. In those eight years we had also started receiving phone calls asking for money.

About three years after the second divorce, people started showing up and the second wife's home, looking for money. It turned out that my uncle had racked up hundreds of thousands of dollars is debts. Now, about ten years after that second divorce, my uncle is in prison for fraud, amongst other charges, and has scammed over 45 people.

Both his wives were very smart women, the first worked in finance, the second in medicine. I do have to tell you that the children had trouble with their father and his first daughter only really escaped by moving countries (when the court case started he was barred from leaving and so couldn't follow her). His adopted son had been scammed into lending him about 30 grand for a house deposit (it is an "investment" as apparently the son will get the house upon my uncle's death... there is no house).

Of the second set of children (both girls) one is very normal. She was only three when her parents split and her mum (and later her step dad) have done a very good job of sheltering her. Her older sister (who was about seven at the divorce) has had a much harder time, as her dad was given joint custody of her (why not of both girls I'm not sure, but I think the younger one had separation anxiety type issues and couldn't stand being away from her house for a night). Anyway, despite all the praise my uncle was given ("oh, whatever else he is, he's a wonderful father,") he royally screwed up this girl. She has struggled with many issues and now he has told her that when he is released he will take her to his house (which, remember, doesn't exist) and they will live happily together away from her "controlling" mother and "ignorant" step-father.

That was very long! What I wanted to tell you was that you are not the first woman this has happened to. I want to say that you are doing a lot of things right, but you should carefully consider what happens next, i.e. what would happen if in six years debtors and creditors arrived at your door? You have said you believe that your ex-DP has a small, extra income from somewhere. It could be from scamming family or even strangers, like with my uncle.

Obviously my uncle and your ex-DP are not the same man, and there are probably many differences. My uncle was suspected of many mental illnesses, but was cleared of all (although my grandparents still suspect he is a sociopath). The one thing I would caution you is to be very careful how much and what contact he gets with the children. I totally understand the practical issues you have, but in your shoes I would strongly recommend that you aim that in one year he is not caring for your DC. I saw earlier that you said your workplace is 60 miles away. I would suggest that you move closer to work when you leave your flat. Don't worry about schools etc, move them if you have to (this could even solve your cachment problems) and get away from the pre-school your ex-dp is (supposedly) involved with.

An au pair does sound very sensible as a solution for when you leave the flat. Keep all your documentation about your ex-DP incase he fights for custody. I doubt he will based off what you described, but just in case! You sound like a lovely, sensible women who has had bombshell after bombshell dropped during this relationship. I am so pleased you are getting out, but please, please, please take care of yourself and the children. Even if you still love or feel sympathy for the children's father, he is dangerous to them (even if not physically) and you should be very careful.

One hundred percent, I wish you the best from the bottom of my heart.

ICanTotallyDance · 28/10/2014 18:31

Also, I am very worried about his involvement in the pre-school. Is he really fundraising? Even if he is, is the money going to the pre-school?

Annarose2014 · 28/10/2014 18:32

Just make sure he has no access to your salary, please. The fundraising thing is a big red flag. People like this always "intend" to put the money back, but somehow it never happens.

SagaNorensLeatherTrousers · 28/10/2014 18:41

It really is difficult for someone on the outside to read "He's a total and utter liar and manipulator" in one breath and then, "He's a wonderful father and fund-raiser" in the other. It just doesn't sound like you're quite from under that spell as you want to believe. I say this to you out of support and kindness...I think you're a saint for trying your best to work it out with this man and for how long.

Being a good dad to your dcs means being a good person all-round, I think. Setting a good example, being a well-rounded, kind, honest person with a reasonably functioning moral compass.

I wish you good luck, I really do.

FuckYouSheRa · 28/10/2014 18:45

This reminds me so much of the thing on TV the other month, that was based on a true story. He told the same stories and ended up murdering people to cover it up...

snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 18:50

Thanks for your continued comments. Thanks especially to ICanTotallyDance for sharing that story. It is quite difficult to read well-meaning 'get him away from your DCs now' comments given that that simply isn't feasible, but your suggestion of setting a target for him not to be a carer of the DCs is a good one.

I also take on board people's comments about the school fundraising thing. He really is doing it, I've been helping him a bit. I am going to keep a close eye on it. He did a similar thing for a different organisation a few years ago and was frankly brilliant at it, with no underhand issues.

All this will take a while to come to terms with, but I really do appreciate all your comments. Just knowing that people have read my account is valuable - to have it 'out there'.

LittleTurkish thank you so much for that kind offer. I don't live in that area, but your willingness to support a stranger in need is really touching :)

I'm in regular contact now with his niece. It seems that he has never stopped pretending to his mum and niece that he has a serious heart condition, and he has asked them not to talk to me about it because I am 'difficult'.

As to the comment above that I should really go public with all this, I think I would have done so long ago except for the DCs. I don't want them to be viewed through the lens of their father's shocking behaviour - 'look, those are his children' etc.

OP posts:
Annarose2014 · 28/10/2014 19:02

To be blunt, it will come out sooner or later. This is the way he will always be. There will be no "cure". There are no pills he can take. This is some type of a personality disorder.

Therefore this behaviour will continue throughout their teens and their adult lives. You are afraid of stigmatising them, but you should be afraid of them spending their lives afraid of "being found out" that their Dad is very odd. They will be hiding it from partners etc., because they have been taught to hide it. Rather than being taught from an early age that Daddy makes up stories and there's no big family shame there. It just is what it is, and all families have oddities in them.

ImperialBlether · 28/10/2014 19:07

What makes you think that he will choose one area of his life - fundraising - to be a normal, truthful and reliable person?

I don't think any one person could make sure he acts in an honest way. You are out of the house all day; you can't watch out for what he does with school funds.

I think you have a moral responsibility to warn the Chair of the PTA or the Headteacher about him.

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