Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Can't work out how I feel about my bizarre relationship (long, sorry)

381 replies

snowiswhite · 19/08/2014 14:00

Have changed my name for this post. I don't really know where to start with this, and I fear it could turn out to be far too long, so will try to keep it as concise as possible (which isn't very). Apologies in advance if I leave out too many details.

Me and DP have been together since 2005. We have DD and DS, aged 4 and nearly 3. I fell head over heels for DP very shortly after meeting him: it really seemed we were soul mates, and I was sincerely convinced for many years that it was very, very rare for a couple to love each other as much as we loved each other.

Shortly after meeting DP, I received an email from someone I didn't know, warning me that DP was a liar and that I should check everything. It was a strange email in that there was info in there that could only have come from someone who had been spying on our instant messenger conversations and emails. To cut a long story short, it turned out to be from DP's ex-girlfriend, who somehow had gained access to his emails etc. She had used a fake name to send me the email. All in all, she hadn't given me any reason to believe she was a reliable source of information, and I dismissed her (after an angsty conversation with DP).

Over the next 6.5 years, I could never shake the sense that DP was lying to me - about everything. This seemed so implausible to me at the time - after all, who (outside of a soap opera) would lie about everything? - that I dismissed it, and attributed this feeling to the fact that DP's ex had written me that strange email near the start of our relationship. We went on to live together, to get engaged, and to have DD and DS.

To cut a very long story short(ish), it turned out that he was indeed lying to me about literally everything. The most shocking lie was pretending to be terminally ill for several years starting from around the time DD was conceived in early 2009 - even going as far to get a scar tattooed on. Aside from that, he would lie about our finances (I no longer had a bank account (because he saw to it, I later realised) and he pretended he was wealthy when in fact we were on benefits), his intentions to marry me (he 'made' literally hundreds of appointments for us to have a no-frills reg office wedding, all of which were cancelled due to unforeseen aspects of his 'treatment' - it later emerged that he was still married to his ex wife), and he borrowed £1000s from my family despite having no way of repaying them.

Throughout all this, I suspected him constantly, but dismissed my suspicions for various reasons. Partly it was because the lies simply didn't make sense: I was working on the assumption that if someone lies to you, it's because they stand to gain something by doing so, and as far as I could see, he stood to gain nothing (quite the reverse in many cases). Partly it was because, as mentioned above, I was afraid that I was being unduly influenced by his ex's email. And partly because, when you think the love of your life is dying, you are afraid that your mind is playing tricks on you: of course you would prefer to believe that they have made up their illness, because that would be preferable to them dying, so that is a reason to dismiss your suspicion that they aren't really ill.

So, fast forward to mid-2012. DD is 2.5 and DS is nearly a year old. For nearly 2 years, we have been living rent-free (or, rather, on DP's constant promise of paying rent) in a totally unsuitable and frankly dangerous-for-kids annex of the home of some lovely relatives of mine. I had not gone back to work after DD was born, and spent my days at home, in the middle of nowhere, with no car, no bank account, 2 small kids to look after, while DP goes out every single day for hospital treatment. All I would do with my life, every day, is feed the kids and take them out for walks. Almost every day I am expecting that we are going to have our no-frills wedding, and every time I hope that this time it will go ahead, but DP calls with some reason why it has had to be cancelled. And almost every day I am expecting that today, finally, after a zillion hiccups, our joint bank account will finally be sorted out and we can get access to DP's massive savings and repay my relatives the money we owe them - but this never happens (N.B. I am not mercenary, I didn't care about living the high life, I just wanted a normal life and not to be in debt to my relatives). Writing all this is making my chest constrict, and maybe you can imagine the enormous stress I was under. It was really difficult to cope with all this, but 'knowing' that DP had a far more difficult battle to fight (i.e. his illness) made me feel guilty for worrying about my own troubles.

Anyway, in mid-2012, DP's excuses and stories started to build up to the extent that they become really quite implausible, and DP himself was starting to behave more erratically, presumably with the stress of keeping all the lies going. Even so, it was only after a long conversation with one of my relatives that I started to confront the possibility that DP was lying about his illness. (An aside: by this point, everyone else in my family had worked out he was lying, but they never said anything about it to me. Either they felt awkward about it or they thought I had access to more information to support my belief in him. But the fact that they all seemed to believe him itself made me think he must be telling the truth, and made me feel guilty for doubting him.) I spoke to DP on the phone - he'd gone to the hospital (or rather pretended to) as usual - and I gently asked him if he was really ill, and that maybe the problem was psychological rather than physical. Immediately he admitted it, if 'admitted' is the right term (given that, as I'll explain, he had trouble distinguishing lies from reality) - he said something like, 'yes, maybe you're right'.

From here, it's quite difficult to explain. It has turned out not to be a case of him consciously and maliciously deciding to lie. He genuinely seemed to have come to believe his own lies. I went to the GP with him and he was referred for a mental health assessment, and diagnosed with dissociative disorder, depression, and anxiety. He had large gaps in his memory and seemed not very capable of distinguishing reality from the fantasy he had invented. Over the months and years since (yes, we are still together), it has turned out that some very awful things have happened to him, and that he has been lying about things since childhood as a way to make himself feel better about himself and more important than he believes he is (he basically believes he is worthless). I think that he has been lying so long that lying comes as naturally to him as telling the truth does to the rest of us, and so it is very difficult for him to stop: much of the time, the decision to lie isn't a conscious choice.

He genuinely struggles wiith this and tries his best to get better. He has taken all the help he has been offered in terms of counselling - which isn't very much, and in my non-professional opinion he hasn't been offered the right sort of thing (basically he sees a counsellor and talks about his past, whereas I think he should be having something like CBT that would focus on getting him to stop lying, which is the root of all our problems). When I realised that we were penniless and on benefits, I saw that I would need to go back to work. I am very highly qualified but work in an extremely competitive industry where jobs are hard to come by. We lived in a shitty council flat, on benefits, for a year while I worked every spare waking minute at trying to get back to work, and eventually I did get a job. Last autumn we moved out of the shitty council estate and into a privately rented house in a nicer area.

My family, understandably, want little to do with DP after all this came out. However, whereas people tended to assume that he'd just leave after he'd been rumbled, he has not. While I've been working, he has tirelessly been a full-time dad. He is a wonderful father: far more patient than me, he adores our children and fills their days with fun things: they have planted flowers in the garden together, learned to ride bikes, etc, and he is involved with their pre-school as a committee member. At the same time he keeps our home in order, does all our grocery shopping, cleans and does the washing, etc. His only 'me time' without the kids are a night in the pub once a week with some friends who know nothing about his strange history (he doesn't get drunk, and doesn't drink much in general), and playing sport once a week during the summer. I am not trying to paint a romantic picture of him here - what I am trying to do is make the point that, whilst the lying etc might make it easy to view him as a villain, he has done his utmost to do the right thing since the problem has been identified.

The problem, though, is that he does still lie sometimes. I can't trust him not to. Sometimes he will admit it out of the blue, without me having pressured him to tell the truth, and he will be full of remorse. But sometimes when he lies, I know he is lying, but he won't admit it - and maybe can't admit it. He is not getting the right sort of mental health help to stop this, and we can't afford private treatment at the moment. And I'm left feeling that I'm dealing with it alone ... I don't really discuss it with people, and about a year ago he admitted it to his mum (which was a big deal because his mum has been through hell for various reasons recently, so he'd put off telling her). I was so pleased when he told his mum because I thought I'd have someone to talk to about it, but it hasn't worked out like that. His mum said she just needed time to digest it, then she and I would have a proper talk. But it's never happened. In the year since she found out, she's visited various family members who needed her help with various things, but she still hasn't tried to get to grips with what DP has been doing. And whilst I konw it must be upsetting for her, it also makes me see that maybe this is why DP is the way he is - he certainly doesn't seem high up her list of priorities. I feel like I've just been left holding the baby, so to speak: I'm dealing with it alone.

I never tell anyone about this. When the lies came to light, I had various friends who believed that DP was seriously ill, so I did tell them the truth in order to put them right. I rarely see them and they don't ask me about DP, perhaps understandably (what would they say?!). Everyone else - e.g. people I work with - just thinks we are a normal couple. I feel a bit like I lead a double life.

And now, I don't know whether I want this any more. I'm so tired of it all. I will always love DP, and I think he is a wonderful father, but the head-over-heels aspect of my feelings for him have gone, and I don't know if they'll come back. It's like the person I loved never existed, and whilst in the early days I was desperate to get that person back, I've sort of given up now. I know he still lies, and I really don't want it to be my problem any more - I don't want to live like this, with the stress of not being able to trust him. But, at the same time, I sort of can't imagine life without him. The children adore him. I care deeply for him and want to help him get better - I think he deserves to get better, he certainly struggles so hard with everything. I don't know what I want.

Complicating my feelings is the thought that, even if I did want out, I don't know how to get out. We live in a very expensive part of the country, and if we broke up we would have to pay for 2 households on my salary. I'm nearly 40, and hoping to buy a house in a year, otherwise I'll be too old to get a mortgage. DP could work, but we'd have to pay for childcare in that case, so wouldn't necessarily be better off. DP has occasionally said that we're not a normal couple and that if I want he will move out and find somewhere alone (presumably a crappy council bedsit), but still come over every day and look after the children. This itself breaks my heart ... his self-esteem is so low that it wouldn't even enter his head to fight for the children to live with him. He believes he deserves so little.

I have sort of lost track of what I was even wanting to ask with this post. I guess I just want to tell someone my story so that maybe, in the discussion that follows (if anyone has read this far!) I might get some clarity to my feelings.

OP posts:
ZorbaTheHoarder · 28/10/2014 13:33

Hi OP,

Well done for realising that you cannot carry on with him. Whatever his reasons might be, every single word he utters seems to be designed to manipulate those around him in one way or another.

He sounds like a very, very toxic person, who doesn't give a fig for the havoc his lies cause to his supposedly nearest and dearest.

I know you feel he is a great dad, but it seems barely believable that he would interact with his children any more honestly or decently than he treats anyone else.

Please be good to yourself and your children and start having as little to do with him as possible.

snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 13:37

Lois his mindset is that, if he tells his mum that she's going to be moving into this lovely new house tomorrow/next week/whenever, she will be happy for a few days and will leave him alone temporarily. The same way of thinking led him to keep telling me that we were going to get married or get our finances sorted tomorrow/next week/whenever. Thank GOD I didn't marry him.

Zorba you have it exactly right. I'm aware of the concern you raise about the childrne. Certainly his suitability to look after them will become more doubtful over the years, as his psychological connection with them grows, and the risk of him being able to manipulate them becomes more of a concern. They are 3 and 4 at the moment. And I literally can't see a way of managing or affording childcare without his involvement, so I have to accept that this something I can't do much about. But he really is much better than perhaps any of you expect with the children. He has also recently become involved with fundraising for the pre school and the school, and is doing a great job.

OP posts:
LoisPumpkinPieLane · 28/10/2014 13:42

His reasoning (if not the man himself) is quite insane. How on earth is telling his mum he's bought her a house going to cause anything but complete anguish? He'd have to lie and lie and lie some more to explain why she can't move in. Nightmare. Whether he's got a personality disorder or not, he seems to lack basic empathy. And basic morals.

snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 13:43

Completely agree Lois

OP posts:
Pandora37 · 28/10/2014 13:49

I'm sorry to say this but he sounds utterly hideous. Making out that it's your fault he has worsening "heart problems" is not only ridiculous but abusive. He sounds incredibly manipulative and controlling. And whether he's mentally ill or not, to lie about being seriously ill considering his family history is really chilling. He sounds like he has no regard or empathy for other people, even his own mother and he's putting you in really difficult situations. Does his mum know that he lied about being terminally ill before?

I'm sorry that he didn't get a mental health diagnosis. Did they say anything about his previous dissociative diagnosis (if that existed)? You could always ask for a second opinion but I agree that labelling him with a mental health condition might just enable him to play the victim card further. I don't know if him being diagnosed will help you in anyway, but if it could then I would probably push for another opinion. It sounds very much like he has Munchausen syndrome, I don't know if that's a illness he can be clinically diagnosed with though.

I know this has been said to you numerous times before but I am quite concerned that he's the primary carer for your children. Of course he should still be able to maintain contact and have a relationship with them but looking after them all the time is rather worrying. If he's capable of lying to his family, the people he should love the most, then he may start lying to your children. It's great that he's good at playing with them and being patient with them, many abusive men are. But I wouldn't trust him to have their best interests at heart. If he can be so callous towards you and his own mother, what's to say he won't do that to his children? And seeing as he's so fond of fabricating health conditions, I'd be concerned that he might start doing the same with the children to gain attention. Of course, he may never do such a thing and focus all his lies on himself but I'd just be very, very wary.

I hope you're able to get out of this situation soon. Maybe you could try contacting Women's Aid? They might be able to signpost you to places who can help you with moving out.

SeasonsEatings · 28/10/2014 13:50

Has someone told his DM that she isn't going to be moving into a new house and that he isn't ill?

ZorbaTheHoarder · 28/10/2014 13:55

I realise that he might be spending a lot of "quality" time with the children and that they enjoy being with him and that his looking after them makes childcare much easier, BUT

Surely, if it hasn't started already, he will be saying things to them (as he does to everyone else) that confuse them, because they are downright lies!
I believe this will do them a lot of long-term damage.

I am not trying to be unnecessarily negative or alarmist, but the fact that he is getting involved with fundraising should be a warning flag, not something to applaud?

Isn't it only a matter of time before he tells the school he has managed to secure some great amount of money for them - which never materialises?

I believe that dishonesty runs through his veins and this makes him a dangerous person for anyone to be around - especially young children.

Annarose2014 · 28/10/2014 13:59

Well I suspect OP will be highly attuned to any manipulation towards the children. At the moment they're probably too young to be affected by mind games. It's all just playtime and "eat your dinner".

After a couple of years when they actually start having conversations with him it may become destructive, but hopefully OP you will be on your feet independantly by then.

I wish I could give you a big hug - no-one could have tried harder. Lord knows you need have no regrets.

Please try to disengage now. After you tell his poor mother the truth of course (as I doubt he will). But he will continue, unfortunately, to spread his lies around his family members in lieu of you, as you said. And long term there is nothing you can do about that. It is up to them whether they believe him or not in the future, and it is not your situation to save. There are only two people you have to save from the lies in future years, and that is your kids. He will probably be lying to his mother on her deathbed. Nothing you can do.

Annarose2014 · 28/10/2014 14:00

Though I do agree with Zorba about the fundraising. He obviously needs to be seen as a Hero.

SignoraStronza · 28/10/2014 14:27

I hope you and the children are okay Snow. I too have followed your thread and recognise much of this behaviour in my abusive ex, although his lies were designed to reel in, cause hurt and devastation and then delight in revealing "It's not true".

I really hope you manage to extricate yourself from the situation you're in.

SignoraStronza · 28/10/2014 14:28

Sorry x post. Didn't read your update.

SofaSpud · 28/10/2014 14:36

I've read the whole thread. A family member of mine has npd/bpd. He was a 'great dad'. FF 30 years and his daughter now has the same diagnosis (and I see glimpses in her d who is 12...but I'm no specialist) I sometimes catch a glimpse of behaviour in all of them that chills me. I know you didn't get diagnosis but he sounds psychopathic to me. Good luck op I think you did all you could and more than most but getting out now is for the best for all of you

FunkyBoldRibena · 28/10/2014 14:44

OP - you heard from a professional that your partner is just a liar. And yet you didn't end it. Your boundaries are totally skewed and I don't believe that you are in a position to decide whether he is a good dad or not. Because your boundaries are skewed. 9 years it took you to work it out.

I think you need to get him out of the house, and to get alternative childcare. How much money is worth bringing up two healthy kids versus two screwed up kids? You have this choice to make NOW and you really need to make the right choice for them.

SagaNorensLeatherTrousers · 28/10/2014 15:09

I agree with others, snow. You have no idea what small little nuggets of manipulation he could be planting in your kids' heads. Stuff that they're not aware of enough to mention to you directly but could be changing the way they think.

Thanks for you...it's great you've made the first steps and I know it seems impossible but I think you need to figure out a way to get you and DCs away from him and set up limited contact.

IDontDoIroning · 28/10/2014 15:13

What about his mother? She thinks she's moving into a new house - where is she living now ? Has she given notice on a tenancy or is selling up on the pretext of this new house that doesn't exist?
Somone has to tell her in case she finds herself homeless soon as she has believed these lies.

IDontDoIroning · 28/10/2014 15:17

Also I have to say that someone with his issues shouldn't be involved in fundraising as lies about funds how much had been raised, big donations, items of expenditure could easily end up causing huge problems

ImperialBlether · 28/10/2014 15:26

His mother sounds very odd, though. If my son said he was buying me a house, well, for one thing I'd like to walk around the house before moving in! Secondly I would know he wasn't working and would ask him where the money was coming from. Thirdly, I would be speaking to his girlfriend as I guess I would be able to tell they were living in relative poverty and ask her about it.

Also, if my son was in hospital with a terrible illness, I would visit him in the hospital, phone the hospital to ask how he was getting on, visit his girlfriend and ask whether she needed help, etc.

OP, it's as though you were brainwashed by him. On what basis did you believe he was wealthy? You were scraping by for money - why on earth did you think that there was tons of money hanging around, just out of reach? Where did you think it had come from and why did you think you couldn't access it? Did you see one single piece of information about this?

Oh and while I think about it, that letter you opened about his diagnosis? Of course he forged that and of course he posted it too. He stood there watching you open it, didn't he?

Have you ever read the distressing threads by tunnocksteacake and others? Their husbands have been diagnosed with cancer, as, supposedly was yours. Now they KNOW their husbands are ill - they go to the hospital and doctor's surgery with them, cash in prescriptions, see the meds etc. How the hell could you believe he had cancer when you didn't do any of that? And a scar tattoo? Not only is that a crazy thing for him to do, it's a crazy thing for you to see and believe!

CiderwithBuda · 28/10/2014 15:35

IM sorry but I don't think I have ever wanted to shake anyone on here as much as I want to shake you. You can NOT believe a word he says. Not one word. He has lied. He lies. He will lie. That is who he is. It doesn't actually matter why really. You say you fell in love as you had so much in common etc. That was all lies too. You fell in love with an act. A lie. A web of lies.

He could well now be dangerous as you are not as gullible as you were. You are questioning him. You are in touch with his family. He is losing control of you.

He is NOT a good father. And fundraising for the school? That is an accident waiting to happen.

Please don't let him look after the children. Please. He is dangerous. Really dangerous.

ImperialBlether · 28/10/2014 15:45

CiderwithBuda, if you wanted to shake the OP then, read the thread where she's bought a Jag. There are no words.

LoisPumpkinPieLane · 28/10/2014 15:50

Good grief woman, sell the Jag. Seriously.

Ragglefrock · 28/10/2014 16:02

OP - I just wanted to extend my sympathies. Get far away from this man and his family. Good luck x

snowiswhite · 28/10/2014 16:06

Am reading all these comments .. not sure I can reply to all of them.

I didn't buy the Jag. Ex-DP turned up with it and at various points in time I have had different stories from him about how he got it. It is not mine to sell. I hate the bloody thing.

OP posts:
HowDidThatWorkOut · 28/10/2014 16:09

OP, I've just read the whole thread - it's a very sad state of affairs indeed. it's impossible not to feel sorry for everyone involved. I think you have handled it brilliantly even though I wouldn't be surprised if you don't feel like it right now. Smile

I know some posters were telling you to LTB straight after your OP but I think it's important that you have worked through this whole process and given him a chance to 'try' and sort things out. The fact that he failed so categorically is both terrible and a relief of some sort. At least now you know that you can't stay with him and you also know that you have tried to give him a chance. It will make everything easier for you knowing that you have tried to do the right thing.

Lots of advice on MN is very black and white but I could see that you may be able to continue to have a 'working' relationship with this man as the father of your children. He sounds like he loves the kids a lot.

BTW OP, i want to say that your posts are very well written. (in fact I think you should write a book about this - it's just fascinating in some ways ).

You sound like an amazingly intelligent and insightful person.

I guess you are going to have a tough ride for a while but hopefully everything will settle down eventually.

Neyite · 28/10/2014 16:28

Now is the time to contact the ex wife and ask her why she legged it to protect her children. He may want to hurt you deeply for uncovering his lies and blowing him out of the water. What if he uses your children to do that?

You keep talking as if you know him, but you dont. You never did. And you dont know him now, nor what he may be capable of.

LoisPumpkinPieLane · 28/10/2014 16:43

OK, if it's not yours to sell, it's not yours to repair. Stop forking out for it.