Damned if I do.....

[Everybodyleaves]

Ok, lawyer has just advised me to cease STBXH alternate w/end access due to many issues pending resolution (hopefully over next few weeks/couple of months). Last resort I'm afraid.

Knowing it would therefore be a while before DCs overnights resumed, earlier today I asked STBXH for details of the camping trip he had mentioned prior to all this blowing up as none had been forthcoming. He had been aware DCs were unlikely to be going yet had been talking about it with them on phone calls this week. It turned out to be starting tomorrow.

I then offered to let DCs go as a) it is a holiday for them with him b) it might be the last overnights for a long while as he can be VERY stubborn and c) thought it would be a nice gesture as aunts/cousins also going too (just found that out today too).

I asked for one condition to be met: that he agreed to return DCs to me when camping trip ended on Thursday (he was originally due to have then for 11 nights). He refused. He has previously not returned DCs to me when due to, hence my asking.

Many angry texts, calls and two confused and upset children later, he is blaming me for them not going.

Why do I even bother trying???

I know the sleeping arrangements aren't the issue of this post, but have they explained why next to each other in sleeping bags on a sofa bed is different than next to each other on the floor in sleeping bags?
Presumably if your ex gave up his bed and took the sofa, they would still be sharing?

Fwiw, I think your ex was cutting off his nose to spite his face regarding bringing them home after the holiday.
If he has form for not bringing them home when arranged, I'm not sure I could have offered that.
I also suspect that that is the tip of the iceberg.

IMHO (as I said I know the flat in question) there is room in the other (also double) bedroom so everyone could be in a bed.
Standing in OW shoes for a moment I would have purchased a triple bunk bed so my own DD had a proper bed, then when the two DCs were visiting at weekends, boy in top bunk, girls in double bed below.

Result: everyone in a bed in a bedroom and OW/Ex free to roam rest of flat after bedtime. Huge hatch from internal kitchen to lounge so they can't even make a cup of tea without disturbing DCs just now.

Whereisegg
I used that very phrase in a text to him.

Yes, I was taking a risk in him not returning the kids to me, hence I asked him to verbally/text agree to that condition only.

By OW do you mean your ExPs partner? Because the fact that you still refer to her as the OW is very telling, IMO.

Yes, I do call her OW on here as it is much politer than the phrase I usually use.

You are so unbelievably bitter, it seeps through every post. I can absolutely assure you that your friends are staying neutral because they disagree with you. You know the saying "if you've got nothing to say, don't say anything at all".

People pick sides during a split, that's what they do. They just aren't picking your side.

Your children will grow to resent you. There was absolutely no reason why your children couldn't go for 11 nights. If the "other issues" were severe enough to not let them stay at his house then there is no way that you would let them go camping. So the point ends there, everything else is irrelevant. You were going to let them go-but only if your ex jumped through your hoops first.

Your logic about sleeping on the floor is mystifying. Surely that's what they are doing when camping? I recall lots of sleepovers as a kid were I used a duvet or sleeping bag on the floor.
It's gone on for three years already but all of a sudden it's enough not to have proper contact...unless under your terms.

Your OH is 50% parent and 50% responsible. Just the same as the fact (I guarantee!) you don't tell him all of your plans, he isn't obliged to tell you. You don't have more rights or say than him just because you are the mother (I'm a mother too btw).
If you didn't want him as a co-parent then you should have picked him. You picked him and those children have a right to see him.

It's clear from this thread that you think you are right and it's more important to "win" than do what's RIGHT BY YOUR CHILDREN but you need to get a handle on your bitterness. It may seem like it's pulling your children closer right now but as a child of a mother exactly like you, I absolutely guarantee you are pushing them away.

Shame on you.

CarryOn, that's why I asked about use of 'OW'. It's all a bit ridiculous. The DC have a place to sleep, but choose not to use it. If my DC didn't want to sleep where they were told at that age, they could please themselves and bloody well sleep on the floor. Dad wants to take the DC on holiday, but OP attaches a load of conditions. It's obstructive.

FWIW, my DD father is bloody useless, and it upsets me to see a dad who is trying (maybe not perfect, but trying) be treated like this. I'd give anything for my DD dad to give enough of a shit to want to take her camping.

Everbodyleaves I'm sorry you're having to deal with this and I sympathise. I think you have made the right decision here - unfortunately it looks like your thread has been hijacked by people who have their own agenda..some people think NRPS should bend over so far backwards to be 'reasonable' that their spines snap in two (and even then you'd get told to take painkillers and stop moaning).

Wanting to know when your children will be returned to you is not being controlling, it's completely reasonable - especially if he has form for this behaviour. Any parent who hasn't been in that situation and thinks they'd be ok with it is kidding themselves.

I find you balanced and reasonable, and not seeping anything

Strange isn't it that when women post about not getting on with their partner's ex they are often asked if they are the OW, yet when you are dealing with an OW you should smile and send gifts when handing your children into her home. On the basis all is far in love and war presumably.

Anyway I digress...

OP said

^Yes, he is generally difficult, stubborn, doesn't communicate at all/until last minute and is either completely insensitive or goes out of his way to make life bloody awkward. He has twisted situations and deliberately misled or lied to people (including me) to try and distance me from my (our) friends and his family who I was previously close with so I have little support. It is a control thing. He outright lies to the DCs about me: the one about me planning to marry my DP and move to the other end of the country to take them away from him and his family being my personal "favourite" -DCs were distraught, funnily enough angry. That isn't remotely an option and I would never do that to DCs.

He verbally and emotionally abused me for years and injured me once when he was drunk (I told him then and there if there was a repeat, I was leaving him). He gas lighted me, belittled and controlled me until I lost myself and all my self confidence. I have rediscovered most of that now.^

Not sure why people are reading this and thinking this guy sounds like a great father and the OP clearly only wants to WIN.

I am also not sure what you have done to attract the sanctimonious clan onto your post OP, but some of us at least do think you are trying to be fair.

Well said Maleficent

OP does not sound remotely bitter or controlling (or any of the other nasty misogynist tropes trotted out on here).

Actually, she's been very measured and polite in the face of some very nasty and provocative posts.

I think I know my friends better than any of you, and I have already said what they have done and why further up, so please understand if I disagree with you CarryOn.

Gobby - I attached one condition and gave my reasons why.

As for OW, it is not bitterness. I only have downright hatred for her and what she has done (yes it takes two to tango and he is equally to blame too, but I'm rather stuck with him as the father of my DCs).

If any of you can find another emotion for someone who:
I welcomed into my home despite my reservations about her past and morals
Made little effort with any of the women and indeed always stuck with(and drunk like) the menfolk even ending up going on boys only weekends
Was always overly demonstrative with my DCs to the point where I was uncomfortable about it and got a bollocking for daring to broach the subject with my then "D"H
(Allegedly) shagged my H on one of said boys weekends 4 weeks after my mum died
(Allegedly) then continued an affair with my H while I continued to grieve (very badly I admit)
(Allegedly) met my DH at hotels while he was away on business
Allowed me to offer her paid work as my DCs childminder while she tried to find work at this time
I went out of my way for to help her find work, even speaking to the head of HR to try and get her an interview
I helped research wedding venues for etc after she got engaged to one of DHs school pals (her fiancé had my DH as best man at first wedding)
Knew that my DH was planning to leave me for almost two months before he told me, yet managed to look me in the eye every weekend at my house as we discussed wedding arrangements with her and her fiance
Asked me to be her bridesmaid having (allegedly) had an affair with my DH just a few months before (we really weren't that close)
Flew into a rage and dropped her fiancé on the spot three weeks after DH had left me when he asked what a text on her phone from my DH meant
Started a relationship with DH a couple of weeks later....
then clearly you are a better person than I am.

The allegedly bits came from a friend of hers who she had dropped weeks earlier when they happened to bump into her ex fiancé in pub and he happened to mention that I was to have been a bridesmaid. Her ex friend was agast as she had been kept updated throughout the affair (allegedly) and only knew me vaguely. We had a very long phonecall and she told me things that only people who knew our lives well could possibly have known.

Having said that, I really should thank her/them one day as they have actually done me a huge favour.

I was miserable in the marriage, but I would never have left as I would never have done that to my DCs.

My DCs are my source of motivation to be the best I can be.
I have my own little house in a nice area.
I have been promoted at work.
I have a lovely LDR DP.
I have found other good friends that otherwise may not have ever met.

This thread is very interesting. Mostly because, even though it's totally biased (as is any post on here by its very nature) around 50% of people are still able to see how unreasonable the situation is. If nothing else it's definitely shown mners aren't sheep.

Op, I do hope this all gets sorted because, at the moment, I can only see sadness for everyone involved. I accept that I've been loud and harsh here. I won't apologise for it because I genuinely believe (given the information available) that I'm right - or at least not too far off mark however that doesn't mean I don't want you and your dc happy like I'd like anyone else happy.

If you don't think you're wrong (which I understand you don't) could you perhaps come away from this prepared to explore a different way to deal with it? I don't know what will work for you but you are clearly still carrying a lot of hurt and anger and that's corrosive. I very much doubt your ex is some angelic being either but something needs to change somewhere for the sake of your dc.

Some of your demands are unreasonable. Maybe (no promises but worth a shot) if you could identify a thing or two that you could ease off on he could respond? It will be a slow slow process I know but learning how to co-parent is. It's not easy and we're not raised with some basic understanding of"the rules" like other social situations. Putting aside hurt to yourself to be objective about the person who hurt you for your dc is tough. Really tough. But it has to be done. Somewhere along the way it has to truly become only about them.

Some but not all of the issues:
I would like my kids to have a proper bed to sleep in as it is important for their health, development and education.

I would like him to give me his word that he will bring DCs back to me, and stick to it so DCs know where they will be and when.

I would like to know where DCs will be travelling to and for how long if not staying at the flat overnight (and yes I do let him know in advance every time we are away overnight even if he is not due to have them as it is merely common courtesy, surely?). He actually has access to a very detailed online planner that I maintain and shows DCs activities, events and appointments so we can avoid plans clashing.

I would like him not to lie to DCs and not to tell them to lie to me about anything.

I would like him to use appropriate parental control so DCs only see/play films/games with an age appropriate rating.

I would like to know in advance when he would like his holiday time with DCs so I can plan around that/ organise childcare/ book holidays etc and tell the DCs what is happening.

I'm sorry, but I don't see what you feel is unreasonable about some of these things, or the point of us continuing to debate it here.

I am unclear on the back story but don't see the need to lay into the op.

It's hard to explain coming out of a very controlling relationship to explain the dynamic or the toll a thousand small acts may have.

If he hasn't brought the dc back on occasion, that smacks of a control thing or using the kids as pawns. It would scare me.

The no beds thing is odd and borderline sign of neglect, but isn't that clear either.

You have my sympathy OP, but don't try and win the battle for control, walk away and refuse to play that game. If you fight back it can become very difficult to see where the lines are or inadvertently involve your dc even more than your ex is.

my 12 year old son has a perfectly good bed but often sleeps on the floor because he thinks it is fun.

everybody in short your ex is continuing to behave as if you don't matter / don't exist, and as if he is above any rules or the people who adhere to them. Abusive during the marriage but also after it.

Have you seen this book or any others like it?

And to the poster who used the phrase "shame on you" - this is not a court and we are not here to cast harsh judgements on the people who post. People often post when they are at a low ebb and in need of support and while telling a poster that there may be another way of looking at things is/can be valuable, to do so in such harsh terms is unnecessarily damaging/hurtful to the OP. "Walk a mile in their shoes" and all that.

Nothing unreasonable in that list every - Anyone who thinks so is clearly not of this planet!

I've just realised in my first post on here I referred to NRPs when I actually meant resident parents (although I hope that was clear from the rest of my comments), so apologies for any confusion caused.

"This thread is very interesting. Mostly because, even though it's totally biased (as is any post on here by its very nature) around 50% of people are ^still^ able to see how unreasonable the situation is. "

No today some don't agree with your assertion that the OP is unreasonable. I think one of the issues on the thread is your inability to consider your reading of the situation may not be 100% correct.

In light of the OP's clarification on the subject could you explain where she has been unreasonable and how she should deal with the situation in a more productive way? That would indeed be helpful.

*I would like my kids to have a proper bed to sleep in as it is important for their health, development and education.

I would like him to give me his word that he will bring DCs back to me, and stick to it so DCs know where they will be and when.

I would like to know where DCs will be travelling to and for how long if not staying at the flat overnight (and yes I do let him know in advance every time we are away overnight even if he is not due to have them as it is merely common courtesy, surely?). He actually has access to a very detailed online planner that I maintain and shows DCs activities, events and appointments so we can avoid plans clashing.

I would like him not to lie to DCs and not to tell them to lie to me about anything.

I would like him to use appropriate parental control so DCs only see/play films/games with an age appropriate rating.

I would like to know in advance when he would like his holiday time with DCs so I can plan around that/ organise childcare/ book holidays etc and tell the DCs what is happening.*

They have a bed but choose not to use it - sleeping bags on sofa bed would be fine

Agree he should bring thrm back when agreed

No need to know where they are when with him - he is just as much a parent as you and is not required to tell you

Agree they shouldn't lie

There are lots of debates on age appropriate material and I would argue a 12a or even 15 may be appropriate for an 11 yr old - these things are not set in stone.

Agree holiday date should be agreed in advance

I therefore think you could back off on some of these issues which would make live easier for your DC, which is of course the main point.

Magnificent, I said 50% which acknowledged that posters do agree with the op didn't it?

Caroldekker has summed up the list pretty well. Some points are unreasonable, some aren't. Considering those points I don't think there is enough wrong to have warranted the ops course of action here. I realise some people feel it's ok to want to know everything going on during contact and such like however they are wrong. A resident parent does not have that right. It can be extended as a courtesy of course. Having said that every parent should know dc will be returned when agreed. I'd be interested to know the specifics there though.

You know what I'd be interested to read?

The justification for the completely unwarranted attacks on OPs parenting.

What's behind that, I wonder?

Am also impressed by the mind readers who manage to know that the ex is a poor dear who is just trying his best and the OP is bitter and clearly trying to prevent contact.