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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Help with friend/stalker situation

137 replies

ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 10:30

My friend is a gregarious, beautiful woman, talented artist, dancer, singer and teacher. She is currently abroad teaching performance arts to children.

She is in her mid to late 20's, we'll call her Sue

She has always had this slightly creepy older friend called Paul (NRN) who, from about 18months ago has started hanging around the same places as her, generally 'being around'.

On Tuesday I had Paul come round, just for a chat and because he was really depressed, he asked me quite calmly if I had heard anything from Sue and I told him she was doing really well and had met someone. He Flipped out. Started going on about how she had lied to him, he wasn't told anything and 'friends tell each other everything' that she wont even communicate to him about the website he has created for her (he is a web designer) and that it is upsetting him a lot.

This went on for some time and he told me that she had fancied him the first time they met and he missed a 'window of opportunity' to make her his and if he had been more forceful/direct then she would have loved him and they would have stayed together.

he is around 50.

I told him straight that I thought that was strange because she was off exploring the world and doing loads of stuff and he wanted someone to take to art-galleries with and so on. I didn't really understand how that would work out.

He then told me that his ex-wife was much younger than him and he had allowd her to have an 'open relationship' and this had worked really well for them, he took her to boyfriends houses and paid for everything and so on. I said he sounded more like a father figure and he got really upset.

Anyway so I spoke to Sue and said that I thought Paul was being a bit full-on about her and that actually I felt like him obsessing over her was stopping him leading his life and must be pretty weird for her.

She has stated that she never fancied him, never showed him any signs of that, that he invited her to a theatre date with friends and it ended up being the two of them and that was it. He is turning up at music nights she puts on and saying 'thank you for inviting me' to her and so on, basically he has made it so that everywhere she is, he will go.

Since she's left the country he has been attempting to contact her every single day, he will produce newspaper articles that he has found from the small Eastern European town where she is working that she is in and translate them and announce he is putting them on the website. She never asked him to build a website, doesn't really want one.

He will write on the website pretending to be her, she will then say 'well I would never say that' and give him different text to use. She admits she has been naive but she is a reasonable person and he is constantly telling her how normal it is that he takes an interest in her life.

She told him she had a tummy ache 2 months ago and he 'stayed up all night worrying' and looking up abortion clinics in Eastern-Europe. She just had a tummy ache.

He has told me that having her to 'care for' is the only thing stopping him going to sleep crying every night.

She then told me that he asked her repeatedly for her address and she of course turned him down. He then went online, got the address of the theatre school where she teaches and began sending her parcels.

These didn't make it to the theatre school and were sent all around the town before finding her. She was embarrassed by this so gave him her address (?)

He has since been sending her lots of little things, chocolates, poetry, an erotic short story and more recently he has sent her a mobile phone.

She took some money from him for a train ticket to Berlin (silly silly Sue) and she is keen to pay this back though has no money. I've told her I will pay it back to him on her behalf.

She wants to cut him out of her life (understandably) but he keeps following her everywhere. I told her to send me the mobile phone to return it to him and to record and destroy anything in future that he sends? Is this wise advice?

She said she might 'message him to tell him that she will never contact him again' I said to just not message him again ever and not tell him that.

Any advice?

OP posts:
ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 11:43

Yes thats the plan. I will return it with the mobile phone.

Will talk to her about the website. Perhaps she can write him a note to be returned with the phone

OP posts:
Haffdonga · 01/08/2014 11:52

You say she hasn't encouraged him but in his world she has. She's accepted money and gifts. She's given him her address. She's cooperated about the website (giving him text to put on it). She's acted friendly at social occasions. Those are the actions (in his mind) of a close friend /potential lover. Blocking him on FB for 9 days people, only 9 days, is not a clear signal. She has been giving him extremely mixed messages. If she went to the police now and accused him of stalking they'd laugh her out of the station.

For this reason I think she needs to make it very very clear for once and for all that there will be no more contact. Ever. The normal no contact with stalker guidelines aren't appropriate because she's been so unclear before. So she should return the phone and the money with a short clear letter saying that she no longer wants any contact with him and that she will not accept any from him. (no explanations, no excuses, no apologies)

Then, if he continues she will have far more grounds to take legal action if needed. Hopefully he just needs it spelt out very clearly.

Haffdonga · 01/08/2014 11:56

X posts. Sorry about the mutual friend and it explains why emotions got so heightened. But still the same applies. Return the stuff. Draw the line. Stick to it.

Vivacia · 01/08/2014 11:56

You say she hasn't encouraged him but in his world she has.

Yes, but in his world they're probably soul mates and will be married before Christmas.

Haffdonga · 01/08/2014 11:59

Yes Vivacia. He's clearly a warped creep. But her actions haven't been clearly those of someone who doesn't want contact.

HennaFlare · 01/08/2014 12:04

Tell her not to use the phone at all. If it's on contract he'll be getting an itemised bill and building a list of her other friends/acquaintances' contact numbers.

ZenGardener · 01/08/2014 12:11

That's really creepy.

I agree return the phone and the money and a very formal sounding note stating that the website must be taken down and no further contact is to be made or she will involve the police.

Then you both need to cut him dead. Get her to change her email address and return any packages or letters unopened.

Good luck. I really hope he gets the message Sad

ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 12:20

But in his world she has invited him to music events by announcing to her whole theatre group (where they met) that she puts them on.

In his world he had a 'window of opportunity' to 'be with her' that he missed because he wasn't forceful enough with her.

His world is a pretty warped place.

I think for many people it is very difficult to just ignore someone you know in social situations, that takes quite a lot of 'fuck you' and shes really, really nice.

Yes she has accepted gifts and money from him but he has sort of co-erced her into doing so, in that she hasn't wanted to and he has insisted it is okay/a good idea/not a problem/not abnormal.

I will speak to her about the website, I am loathed for her to send back the little gifts he has sent her up to now because it will show that she has kept them IFSWIM and it will be a way for him to have contact with her, even if it is just her writing on a packet returning it, also will cost her a lot of money.

OP posts:
thenightsky · 01/08/2014 12:28

What SGB says... women are programmed to smile and be friendly and nice to men, whatever the circumstances. I've been caught myself like this with a couple of blokes over the years (not as bad as 'Paul' thank God). It takes a massive amount of courage (if that's the right word) to go against a lifetime of programming and push a man away.

Can she return all the gifts, every last tiny one, to you? You box them up and present him with them, with the words... 'you might as well have these back as they've been in my house ever since you sent them as she has no interest at all in them'.

ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 12:39

shes in Eastern Europe and he sends whole packages filled with tiny little gifts and chocolates and poetry.

She could send them all back but it would be expensive. Maybe we should keep his £71 and use that to send all future gifts back?

OP posts:
tribpot · 01/08/2014 12:56

The website must be taken down. This is the kind of digital footprint that could last for years and cause all sorts of problem. I suggest she writes a cease and desist letter, from a pretend firm of solicitors in her town if necessary, requesting the website is removed at once. The letter should note all correspondence from him will be passed to the authorities in the future - in reality I suggest she keeps the parcels unopened and preferably not in her home in case they are needed later for prosecution.

Giving him the address was extremely foolish. Can she move house? It sounds like even if she did the parcel would get to her anyway as some helpful soul would pass them on. She needs to brief all her friends who are in contact with him (as she should have done with you) to say nothing about her to him, and nothing about him to her.

The phone and the money need to at least appear to have come back from her, so that he doesn't try and fold you into the psychodrama. Even if you pay the debt and the cost of delivery.

It might be worth you speaking to the police to ask if there is anything they can do about stalking if the victim is overseas. The website thing is cyber-stalking which might change things somewhat.

tribpot · 01/08/2014 12:58

The other thing I would do is find out who is hosting the website using WhoIs and make a complaint to them about the website misrepresenting her. Is it fairly obvious that it's meant to be her site, i.e. not just a blog with a username and a photo of her?

RedRoom · 01/08/2014 13:03

You say she's 'always had' this friend and for '18 months' he's been clingy and obsessive towards her. So, he is primarily her friend, not yours. You also say that she wants to cut him out of her life and it's been so bad that she has blocked him for the last 9 days.

In that case, why did you invite him over to your house on Tuesday (3 days ago)? Surely you knew that he would see it as a golden opportunity to find out details about how your friend is? And yes, you provided him with details about her personal life, knowing that this is the last thing she would want.

Your excuse that he was depressed so you invited him for dinner doesn't ring true: this is someone that is causing your friend considerable upset and yet you are buddying up with him at your house.

It sounds to me like you quite like to be part of all of this drama and you aren't helping matters. I think you should mind your own business.

tribpot · 01/08/2014 13:06

I don't think the OP knew about the stalking until this week, when she spoke to Sue after Paul had been round for dinner.

Ivehearditallnow · 01/08/2014 13:06

I agree with RedRoom.
She can ask him to close the website. If he chooses, it's up to her to deal with it as it's her identity. Not yours.

Ivehearditallnow · 01/08/2014 13:06

*refuses

not chooses! x

ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 13:29

I only found out about his actions when I spoke to her after he had come round and was acting so strangely.

She hasn't mentioned it to anyone, partly because she is in a bit of a cycle with him (and she admits this with the money) and partly because she wouldn't want him to be ostracised by the local community (which he would be) if they found out how uncomfortable he made her.

I had no idea he was like this to the extent that he is, I had no idea he was upsetting her so much and frightening her so much. The choice to just 'leave it' and in doing so leave her for more time without feeling that she has anyone standing with her in this is just not who I am. There is no way I could do that.

OP posts:
tribpot · 01/08/2014 13:34

It's not really her choice how people react to the facts of his behaviour. Her main job here is to protect herself, and that means alerting people likely to speak to him of the need to say nothing about her.

I do think it is possible he will escalate now that she's cut him off, to the extent of going over there. So she needs local support as well as you in this country. Does she have good friends there?

Ivehearditallnow · 01/08/2014 13:38

The choice to just 'leave it' and in doing so leave her for more time without feeling that she has anyone standing with her in this is just not who I am. There is no way I could do that.

Eh? Why are you the only one she has to talk to?
I understand she's far away and you miss her and are concerned, but isn't this just as simple as getting the website closed and then her just not opening his gifts?

ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 13:43

She does which I am thankful about. I have made her promise me that she will phone the police if he arrives in the town, because I think that he will. I think perhaps if we play it right, return the phone, money and give him a clear understanding with regards to the website that he will be spoken to by the police if it doesnt come down, that might send a clear message before the time when he decided to go over there and cause her physical stress.

OP posts:
ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 13:44

Sorry that was in response to tri

OP posts:
ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 13:45

Ive do you know what, the last thing I am going to do is question her about why she hasn't 'bothered' someone else with this issue. The fact is I NOTICED he was being a weird prick and I brought it up with her because i wanted to warn her that his behaviour was not normal and I was worried.

She then told me what had been going on and I am GOING TO HELP HER AS MUCH AS I CAN.

I would like advice on how to help her, the best course of action. Not to be told 'not to bother' because that is the one piece of advice I will not be listening to

OP posts:
Ivehearditallnow · 01/08/2014 13:53

I'm advising you to step back - out of concern for you as you seem very (perhaps overly tbh) stressed about this.

You don't need to be so defensive - I'm just pointing out it really isn't your responsibility to sort this out for your friend. Just to comfort her.

Blimey...

ICanHearYou · 01/08/2014 13:55

I want to help her, I want to help her sort it out.

That is who I am. What I am 'defensive' about is the absolute knowledge that now this thread is going to be an endless cycle of people telling me that I have to just throw her to the dogs and think nothing more of it (despite me being morally unable to do that) and then a host of attacks thrown at me because I have not done exactly what I am being told to do on MN.

I am acutely aware of how this forum works.

Anyway, I am not going to step back. I am concerned for my friend, I will do my best to help her as much as I can. Advice ON THAT would be great. Please don't bother telling me to just ignore it because I won't do that. That is not the sort of friend or person that I am.

OP posts:
Ivehearditallnow · 01/08/2014 13:56

I think your friend confiding in someone who isn't a drama queen would help. Tell her that from me.
Good luck.

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