Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

Yes, I think it does. For the very good reason that have already been put on this thread. Men see women as "lesser" in general. Otherwise it wouldn't be ok for a judge to say those words about the rape of a woman. That is despicable. That is despising women.

No, Sabrina. That is a sweeping generalisation as has been pointed out by many people on this thread. You just don't agree with then so you're ignoring their input in favour of the posts that you do agree with. Who has said it is acceptable for a judge to suggest that a man can't stop himself when it comes to raping a woman? If you base your opinion of men on the assholes in society then of course you're going to have a negative opinion!

Perhaps we should turn it around and say, based on some of the opinions given here, women despise men. No doubt you will disagree with that without appreciating that you are pretty much doing the same thing - grouping people by sex and using the opinions of some to influence your opinions of all.

No bumbley, those opinions are not just on a chat forum, or in the pub, or on twitter. We are talking about the very fabric of our legal system. They very fabric of our government. Men in power.

The wimmin aren't in power - they struggle to get the very crumbs here. If they do make it into political positions (often in the support of men) they are fair game for sexual assault (Lord Rennard etc). Men who think they are entitled to assault and abuse are in government, in the BBC, in the catholic church, in schools and hospitals. Men that think they're entitled to abuse women and children (boys and girls.) And these men's crimes are covered up by those in power. The vast majority of which are men. Men in power covering up other men in power's crimes against women and children.

Sure, let's judge the entire legal system on that judge's opinion. Just as we're judging all men on the opinions/behaviour of a few. That all makes perfect sense. Shouldn't we just make a few assumptions about women next though? Just to keek it equal, you know.

It's not just that one judge though, is it? That judge is exemplary of the whole system. Otherwise he's be struck off by now, and out of a job. Society tolerates this judge's comments - implicitly agrees with them.

Many men individually do not despise individual women, as someone mentioned upthread. They are willing to make exceptions for their mother/daughter. However, ask any of them whether they'd want to be a woman and they are most likely to react with horror. So what is behind that reaction? IMO the knowledge that they run the world, that they view most women as inferior and they they have no wish to join the losing side.

Ultimately, do we give a flying monkey's arse whether they despise us or not though? Do we need to care? Can we carry on doing our thing without having to be liked? We don't have to ask permission for things or seek approval- we could just do them.

I don't agree with them and I'm sure plenty of others do not. Of course, our opinions don't seem to matter.

Duchesse, would you want to be a man? I wouldn't. I'd probably recoil with horror if you asked me!

You don't agree with the judge's comments, bumbley? But these are the people running our legal system?

Actually I think quite a lot of things would be a lot easier if I were a man. I like being a woman but wouldn't recoil in horror if someone suggested I could be a man. I've seen even mild-mannered, apparently modern men (even a vicar for pete's sake!) react in social situations as though you'd suggested they get leprosy.

Not my dh he is soon to be sahd, does 90% of cooking and housework, nobody gave me away on my wedding, I have full control over finances and have since he was a teen. I have had 2 two week maternitys, dh always prioritises my career. If other people chose different thats up to them.

Oh, good for you melissa.

That's women's equality sorted then everyone - because melissa's ok. We can all pack up and go home.

Look on aibu on the well off thread. I didnt want a well off man I wanted a man to support my career and cook and clean for me. You cant have it both ways. Why not chose a man that wants that life there are plenty that do.

I actually do think the process of 'othering' in regards to gender that kids go through from about age 4 until puberty happens to both boys and girls as they form their identity. (It may not always happen in a straightforward way, of course, but in general...)

Lots of girls want nothing to do with boys at that age. And I'm sure, as they grow up, plenty of women strongly identify with their gender and wouldn't want to change it, in the same way that lots of men probably wouldn't.

Again, though, I'm not sure this equals contempt.

Everyone thinks like that. I mean would you want to be a man? I couldnt think of anything more horrendous.

Just because women don't actually want to be men doesn't mean that there isn't inequality for women, at a societal level.

Ime, at around age 4 girls and boys are all running around, climbing etc - only the girls are in pretty dresses they are told not to get dirty.

'Like a girl' is an insult.

I'm not arguing that the patriarchy doesn't exist or that women have achieved equality and feminism has no work left to do. I am arguing that the statement 'men despise women' is inaccurate, overblown, divisive and unhelpful.

Maybe, mummybare - but the more I look at twitter, or feminist blogs, or hear about the mass cover ups of sexual assault/abuse of women and children by men in power, or read the misogynistic abuse Caroline Criado Perez, or Mary Beard get....well, the truer Germaine Greer's quote seems to be.

I agree, Sabrinnnnnnnna, it's shocking, but - and perhaps I'm being naive and wildly optimistic here - I do think that misogynists are in a minority these days, albeit a determined and vocal one. And they tend to operate anonymously, because their views do not chime with the mainstream.

I don't think these people represent men as a class. I think their vitriol is just the death throes of a bunch of pathetic outdated dinosaurs who are feeling threatened by women gaining real power. But, like I say, I am an optimist...

I would say it was the idea of menstruation and giving birth that would put them off :)

Again, Sabrina, inequality in some situations does not mean men despise women.

"I am arguing that the statement 'men despise women' is inaccurate, overblown, divisive and unhelpful."

^ this

"I am arguing that the statement 'men despise women' is inaccurate, overblown, divisive and unhelpful."

Yup, this. Incidentally, the suggestion upthread that prejudice against women is comparable to the way non-white people were treated under Apartheid is crass and offensive. Have you ever been to South Africa?

Are you aware that there are 100 million females missing from the world, due to sex selective abortions and infanticide in Asia? That's despisal on an epic scale.

i assume you mean in the West though, compared to SA.

Thank goodness things have improved greatly for women here in the west. (not by accident either someone fought for this) But we're not there yet. And the end of apartheid hasn't made everything fine in SA. The entrenched attitudes that make such systems possible take time to change. It's a process, there's no magic wand.

What about so much of mainsream porn? I would argue a lot of it shows very contemptous attitudes towards women.

(Sorry for dropping the P bomb, esp when i have to leave soon)

^Are you aware that there are 100 million females missing from the world, due to sex selective abortions and infanticide in Asia? That's despisal on an epic scale.

i assume you mean in the West though, compared to SA.^

Yup, sorry, blatantly I did mean just in the west. I'm very aware that post-Apartheid South Africa remains a basket case - I'm too young to properly remember the Apartheid days but recognise that the current state of affairs is a hangover from those days.

What about so much of mainsream porn? I would argue a lot of it shows very contemptous attitudes towards women.

Some does, some doesn't. The stuff that does stinks to high heaven.

Yes I have been South Africa dancing. I'm not sure how that's relevant. My point is that white people had the power to change apartheid but didn't, it was black people who threw off their own oppression. Equally, men have the power to change the way things are for women, throughout the world, but they do little or nothing. They claim there's no real problem.

And, yes, the way women were once treated here in the UK was very much comparable to apartheid in South Africa. Less than 100 years ago they were not allowed to vote or hold any political office. They were barred from many educational institutions and were expected to marry. Once they married they were essentially signed into slavery - all their property transferred to their husband and their husband could use their body in whatever way he pleased, up to an including battery and rape, without any fear from the law.

Things have improved here in the UK from that situation, but since that was the starting point there is still a long way to go. Around the world women are still denied all human rights - can't vote, can't drive, can't work, can be stoned to death for being raped.

To extend the comparison further, no one would argue that now that apartheid is over in SA, black S Africans are regarded as equal to the whites. Pretty much everyone except white supremacists can see that because black people were so disadvantaged for so long that it will take a long time for them to have anything approaching equality, there and around the world.

Yet, for women, who were denied all rights for centuries, no recognition is given to the fact that that level of disadvantage takes a long time to shake off. Worse still, there are millions of women around the world still living with no rights - where is the outrage? Where is the campaigning to end it?