Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Do men despise women.

817 replies

Loomineer · 14/07/2014 21:04

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

OP posts:
thedancingbear · 17/07/2014 10:27

men have the power to change the way things are for women, throughout the world, but they do little or nothing.

(i) What practical steps do you think I can take to help overthrow the patriarchal establishment in the UK?

(ii) Why is this the responsibility of men specifically, rather than all decent people?

(iii) In what are ordinary working men morally responsible for the actions of arseholes in positions of power (politicians, judges, etc)? As I have said before, these people do not represent me.

CaptChaos · 17/07/2014 10:41

Dancing

  1. why is it my or any other woman's responsibility to direct your activism?

  2. feminists are doing what they can, but unless those with power, ie men get on board, we can only do so much. What's your excuse?

  3. of course they represent you. They represent the status quo for people who need to ask women what direction their activism should take.

thedancingbear · 17/07/2014 10:44
  1. I didn't say it was. Why is it mine? I was asking for practical assistance.

  2. I'm on board. but I don't have the power you seem to ascribe to me.

  3. don't you dare tell me who speaks for me. The political and judicial system are as much my enemies as yours

thedancingbear · 17/07/2014 10:45

Well done on failing to give a direct answer in relation to any of my three clear and reasonable questions by the way. (i) was a genuine attempt to seek information on what I could/ should be doing better.

cailindana · 17/07/2014 10:46

i) You can support Women's Aid. You can join protests. You can acknowledge your own sexism. You can challenge the sexism of others. You can create and sign petitions.

ii) I never said it was the responsibility of men specifically. Women agitate for change, men rarely do. Yet it is men, in general, who hold the power. Therefore if they actually feel things should change, they should help to change them.

iii) Yes, they do represent you. They represent the general viewpoint of the country you live in. If you are not happy with that, then take action to change it.

thedancingbear · 17/07/2014 10:47

Believe it or not, I'm actually on your fucking side, but you come across as just wanting to insult me because I'm the 'wrong' gender

cailindana · 17/07/2014 10:49

It's frustrating when people don't accept your viewpoint isn't dancing? It's frustrating when people challenge everything you say.

Welcome to feminism.

7Days · 17/07/2014 10:53

i) Probably just small simple steps like making your opinions known when in company. I don't expect you, personally, to storm parliament! But I think not laughing at off colour jokes, or if you are a manager at work being mindful, accommodating and respectful of family commitments, publicly supporting gender quotas, things like that.

ii) everyone should. It makes an extra statement when men do it in front of other men, though.

iii) they do represent you though. To a greater extent than they represent me. But I don't know how responsible either of us are for their actions. voting & petitions I expect but that seems a bit weak. Hope someone else has better suggestions

bumbleymummy · 17/07/2014 11:12

Cailin, again, how does the evidence of inequality in some situations prove that men despise women? You keep skirting around this with generalisations.

"You can acknowledge your own sexism."

That's pretty offensive. You seem to think that dancing is sexist automatically because he is a man. Do you acknowledge your own sexism? You really have come across as extremely against men on this thread (and others).

bumbleymummy · 17/07/2014 11:15

"they do represent you though. To a greater extent than they represent me"

What are you basing that on? The fact that they both have a penis?

cailindana · 17/07/2014 11:16

Yes I acknowledge my own sexism bumbley. I also acknowledge my own racism.

I don't know if you remember but I said upthread that I disagree with the statement that "men despise women."

bumbleymummy · 17/07/2014 11:34

So if you think you are sexist then why do you think you are in a position to judge others?

I had missed the part where you said that you disagreed with that statement. Not sure why you are arguing with us then!

cailindana · 17/07/2014 11:39

I was addressing other points.

I am not in a position to judge others. I am not the one saying other people have a chip on their shoulder. We are all sexist and racist to some extent.

My argument is that men benefit from privilege but are blind to that privilege. That is not judgement, that is a statement of how I see the world.

bumbleymummy · 17/07/2014 11:41

"We are all sexist and racist to some extent. " I disagree with this. Why do you think that?

rpitchfo · 17/07/2014 12:34

We are all sexist and racist I believe because it is inherent in human nature (some will disagree).This obviously doesn't justify either of these concepts.

Gender roles and a fear of strangers were important evolutionary advantages. But with the advancement of human society they have become almost meaningless. They no longer serve any evolutionary importance to the continuation of humankind.

Human consciousness has enabled us to explore that these traits aren't black and white.

Having said that..social constructs for me have magnified these inherent traits beyond all recognition, so in that sense we are all sexist and racist to a certain extent because we are socialised that way.

HumblePieMonster · 17/07/2014 12:48

I don't think those things are inherent. If you watch toddlers, they aren't bothered by racial differences, though they do seem to be aware of gender.

FlatPacker · 17/07/2014 13:24

Studies show babies do recognise colour of skin actually - if mum is white, they react to a black carer differently to a white one. Associating this recognition with negative ideas comes later though - and surely both nature and nuture. But even if you want it all nature, socialising from a young age has a very similar affects on our brains so, yes, everyone is racist and sexist to a point. Studies of unconscious adult thoughts reveal racial prejudices just below the surface in even the most unracist people. Hardly surprising when societal messages diffused daily are registered by our brains, so that even if we disagree with those messages, they nonetheless penetrate to a degree. Add that up over a life time...well, you see how powerful that is.

bumbleymummy · 17/07/2014 13:37

Flatpacker, I'm not sure how recognising different sex/race makes someone sexist/racist.

CaptChaos · 17/07/2014 13:59

Dancing Well done on failing to give a direct answer in relation to any of my three clear and reasonable questions by the way. (i) was a genuine attempt to seek information on what I could/ should be doing better.

I did give you clear answers, the fact that you didn't like them, doesn't make them unclear. However, in the interests of making you happy, I shall be more explicit (I'm also not posting quickly while at work!)

(i) What practical steps do you think I can take to help overthrow the patriarchal establishment in the UK?

A lot of men ask this question, when men ask me this, they tend to get the stock answer you got. However, some examples of things you could do. Donate to Women's Aid, write to your MP, ministers, Govt Departments, march, wave flags, speak out when you see injustice not only against women stand up and be counted and acknowledge that you don't know what women's experience of the world is. Don't shut up, refuse to be silenced, be prepared to be called all kinds of revolting things, accused of revolting things and have your address posted online along with details of your children's school. Other men and, sadly, some women, will hate you for it.

(ii) Why is this the responsibility of men specifically, rather than all decent people?

A surprising number of men ask this as well. It is the responsibility of men specifically because they, whether you want to swear at me about it or not, own and control the power bases of the world. As long as men, such as yourself, continue to accept the way they run things, they will continue to belief that the way things are run is ok. Men's voices are louder than women's in the world, whether you like it or not, whether you experience it or not, it is, sadly true. It would be great if feminists didn't need men on board to enable change. As an example, it took a man's voice and men getting behind it to enact the Abortion Act in the UK, women's voices weren't enough, if men hadn't supported it in constituencies, MPs would not have voted it in. I hope that makes more sense.

In summary, it IS the responsibility of all decent human beings to speak out against injustice, but men's voices are louder than women's and more difficult to ignore. Therefore, if you (plural) don't speak out, then you are part of the problem, or simply don't see the problem.

(iii) In what are ordinary working men morally responsible for the actions of arseholes in positions of power (politicians, judges, etc)? As I have said before, these people do not represent me.

Everyone is morally responsible for the actions of people in positions of power. They do represent the status quo, people like the status quo. The only way for a person to absolve themselves of the responsibility for those actions is if they actively do something about it. So, when a young athlete orally rapes an underage girl having got her drunk, and a judge says that, because he's a promising athlete he didn't really mean it and gives him the world's most pathetic sentence, you have a choice.... you either do nothing, which suggests that you tacitly agree with the judges comments or you write to your MP, the DPP, the Law Society and anyone else you can think of registering your disgust. Unless you do something, these people do represent you. Unless you tell the people in positions of power that their actions disgust you, then they will see themselves as the good guys.

Why do men need to do this? Because, as I said before, people listen to male voices more than they listen to female ones.

Believe it or not, I'm actually on your fucking side, but you come across as just wanting to insult me because I'm the 'wrong' gender

I neither want to, nor am setting out to insult you, you aren't the wrong gender at all, and I'm glad you're on my fucking side. Ok? Smile

livingzuid · 17/07/2014 14:10

I apologise in advance if I can't return to argue this out as it is fascinating, but I have a small creature that absorbs more time than I ever imagined :)

We are all sexist and racist I believe because it is inherent in human nature (some will disagree).This obviously doesn't justify either of these concepts.

I completely agree and think it's actually more a blanket statement such as 'we all have prejudices' be it racism, sexism, homophobia, sizeist, whatever. Everyone does and all of us have been judgmental about one thing or another in our lives. Not that it makes it right, but it just is human nature. Sexism for me in our culture (I wouldn't include most of northern Europe who are ime are more enlightened and Angela Merkel is one of my heroes!) is but one small piece of a much larger, inedible pie. Education and parenting is key to changing this in the long haul. It's not about gender, it's about the fact that some people are utter twats and that applies to either sex.

Having caught up with reading the thread, which has been very interesting, the original 'do men despise women' is still a nonsensical statement. You may as well say 'do white people despise black people', 'do Muslims despise non-Muslims, 'do straight men despise gay men'. etc. The unilateral answer to those statements (I hope) would be no. But somehow it's ok for sexism against men? How can you fight a wrong with a wrong?

You're never going to change many people's minds, man or woman, by saying, 'men are all bastards'. Which is what a lot of this seems to amount to for me although I acknowledge I could be reading it wrong.

I resent that my wonderful DH (who is also about to become a SAHD), and my lovely male family and friends should be in the same category as Rolf Harris, Jimmy Saville, Harold Shipman, Tony Blair, George W etc and whatever other nutcases are out there. I don't think I will ever agree that simply because they as men they enable patriarchy or benefit solely from their genetic disposition. Social, economic and environmental factors play the main part.

But some people would put the males of the family in this light? Your husbands, your children? If any of you have sons, does that mean you also think he despises women and therefore, as his mother, you? I am genuinely curious to know how you reconcile the two if you agree with the original statement.

cailindana · 17/07/2014 14:13

It's a very basic fact of human psychology that if you divide people into groups they will identify with their own group and have a negative view of people who are not in their group. The extent of how negative that view is depends on the way in which the groups are defined.
Philip Zimbardo showed in a landmark experiment in 1979 that you if you divide ordinary college students into prisoners and guards and put them in a fake prison, each group will start acting out their assigned role, to the extent that the experiment had to be stopped due to the guards being too strict and harsh with the prisoners. In spite of the fact that the "prisoners" had done nothing wrong the guards began to judge them harshly and treat them cruelly simply because they belonged to a group that has low status in society.

Girls and boys are very clearly defined groups from a very young age. Certain things are expected from boys and certain things are expected from girls. That sets up a division between the sexes that leads to sexism, ie each group judging each other based on sex rather than on individual traits. So, I automatically expect a man to be stronger than I am physically, even though I'm actually quite strong. Both men and women expect women to have hairless legs, even though women don't naturally have hairless legs. When a man I don't know approaches me I feel fear as I expect men to be aggressive and dangerous.

Bumbley, you have sexist views. You believe that it is "natural" for females to do the majority of childcare simply because some other females in the animal kingdom do that. There is no evidence for your belief, yet you still believe that due to sex alone women should care for children. That is sexist. It is a prejudicial belief based on sex and no other evidence.

thedancingbear · 17/07/2014 14:18

When a man I don't know approaches me I feel fear as I expect men to be aggressive and dangerous.

When a black person I don't know approaches me I feel fear as I expect black people to be aggressive and dangerous.

Why in your world is the first response acceptable and justified, but the second (presumably, and obviously correctly) beyond the pale?

melissa83 · 17/07/2014 14:20

I cant say I have ever felt fear at a man approaching me but as a man has never done anything to me I have no reason to personally fear them.

I dont think there is any difference between men and women when it comes to bringing up children.

cailindana · 17/07/2014 14:24

I have already said, dancing, that my fear response to men is sexist. It is however also based on past experience as I have been raped by a man more than once.

cailindana · 17/07/2014 14:27

My past experience has shown me that men I trust can and will hurt me quite badly, therefore I think a fear response is quite normal.

Swipe left for the next trending thread