Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

I cant imagine my dh ever doing anything like that cailindana. I definitely dont think all men think that way.I would be very shocked if my dad or dh did anything like that

It's the basis of chivalry though.

The belief that women are lesser and that men have to do their thinking and doing for them. Unless it's housework or babies, then they're on their own.

I think this thread in classics:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/a2099831-What-sexist-behaviour-would-be-the-most-shocking-if-reversed

Is an excellent eye-opener to the way women are disadvantaged in almost every way in society.

I also totally agree that men are conditioned to put themselves first, and women to put themselves last. I was told an excellent example today - of a woman putting her husbands wishes before her own - severely disadvantaging herself in the process. If the roles had been reversed there is no way he would have put himself out so much for her. Could out myself if I give details I'm afraid - but I was

Cailin, I'm curious how you think that equates to 'men despise women.' Re the judge's comments. Some of them sound idiotic but I dislike making judgements about someone based on a few selected quotes in a newspaper.

Cogito, you are, of course, completely free to take the 'don't trust men' approach if you feel it works for you but that doesn't necessarily mean you are right to do so.

Re conviction rate for rape/sexual assault cases. I think one of the main problems is that it is so hard to prove. It is one person's word against another and if there is reasonable doubt then there isn't much that can be done.

I'm curious to see the answer to your question too dancingbear! Just catching up....

Dh never puts himself ahead of me and I dont think he is the only one. I think its a people thing and not a gender thing

Petula "women have as many and as varied wants and needs as men, but they are much more restricted in terms of what is permitted them."

Example?

"not being prejudged in terms of your individual skills, desires, reactions etc based on your genitalia. "

But women do this to men too! Also, how does separation of gender in some respects = men despise women?

Petula "It's that society is so engineered to disadvantage women, and the vast majority of men, even those who generally do treat women as equals, are unwilling to cede any more privilege than they absolutely have to."

I disagree with this. Firstly, I don't think society is engineered to disadvantage women nor do I feel that the vast majority of men resent treating women as equals.

Cailin, perhaps confirmation bias is playing a part in you thinking that most/all men are 'out to get you/don't respect you/lol down on you' etc.

The patriarchy is the system we live in. It's the system whereby the vast majority of our political leaders are male. Where, within my lifetime, it was legal for a man to rape his wife. Where the Anglican church felt justified, up to last week, in "allowing" women to be priests but not bishops. Where most other religions still bar women from any position of power. Where judges still have sympathy for a man who rapes a sleeping woman because how can a man control himself, poor thing. Where celebrities like Savile and Harris sexually assaulted women on camera and expected to get away with it, and did for a long time. Where the Sun, supposedly a newspaper, runs a picture of a woman's breasts on page three.

You are making my point for me. Senior politicians, the church, Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris, Rupert Murdoch [the Sun]. People in power. These people do not represent me and they do not represent the vast majority of men. There are problems - I don't dispute this - but the majority of men are not responsible for them.

Hear hear dancing bear

Well said dancing bear.

There are problems - I don't dispute this - but the majority of men are not responsible for them.

They are if they don't speak out against them and actively try to do something about them. Men occupy almost all positions of power. Men could stop these things quickly, if they wanted to, but they don't, so they won't.

waits to be crayoned over

How can the average dh stand up to men in positions of power?

They are if they don't speak out against them and actively try to do something about them. Men occupy almost all positions of power. Men could stop these things quickly, if they wanted to, but they don't, so they won't.

Please explain the mechanisms by which I personally can alter the fact that most senior politicians are establishment males, that some judges have outdated and offensive attitudes, that Rolf Harris was a paedophile etc etc.

For my part, I think the most I can reasonably do (whilst still holding down a job and having a family life) is (a) not be an arsehole (b) call out arseholery when I see it and (c) vote for political parties that don't reinforce the patriarchy. I try my best to do these things (though (c) is pretty futile as things stand). I think if all decent men (i.e. the majority) did this consistently, that would make a big difference.

Just seen a bloke on twitter make a comment underneath an article about Cyril Smith.

The comment actually intimated that having an abortion is the same as child abuse.

Sickening.

I'll tell you one thing, dancingbear. Men are more likely to be in charge - from David Cameron down to small business owners. A research study sent out identical CV's with male and female names on them. Male names were more likely to be offered interviews.

Do you really not see a patriarchy? In a society where children are given their father's names, and women take their husband's name on marriage? Where women are given away by their father so their wedding day?

History is steeped in patriarchy- women and children have, only in the last few generations stopped being mere chattel to their men folk. And that's only in the West. And that's only due to women's liberation political movements.

I would imagine the whites in South Africa said the same thing when asked about what they were doing stop apartheid, and Germans in 1933 said the same thing when Jews were starting to be persecuted.

You can say "not my problem," or you can say "it's the authorities that are doing it." You can say "I am not responsible," that's your choice. BUT. It's one thing to just go about your business and do nothing active to change things, it's entirely another to come on threads like this with women who are actively trying to change things to tell us there's no point, there's no problem. You can see for yourself dancing, that there is very much a problem. You don't think you can do anything about it, that's fine. But you can listen to women, who experience the effects of sexism and oppression every day and acknowledge their experience.

There is no way on earth I would go on a thread with black people (I am white) and say "I don't think that's true, I don't think you've really experienced that." No fucking way. And yet here you are on a thread with women telling them "that's not my experience," "I don't think men are like that."

You can tell me all you like that men are not like that. That doesn't make me any less a survivor of abuse and rape at the hands of men. It doesn't make me any less a target of groping, catcalling, and general disrespect when I'm out at night. It doesn't make me any less sick to hear of women raped and hanged in India. It doesn't make me feel ok about that the fact that a fucking JUDGE here in the UK told a man he understands why he raped a sleeping woman. It doesn't make it sicken me less to hear US politicians talk about "legitimate rape" and how rape can't result in pregnancy.

People are not saying "there's no point, there's no problem" they're saying "we don't think men despise women."

You're also ignoring the fact that there are women on this thread saying that but our opinion is apparently wrong and we are burying our heads in the sand because we don't agree with you.

Well, I for one, find I usually disagree with you, bumbley. Nothing personal.

That's fine Sabrina but I'm not the only woman on this thread who has said that they don't think that men despise women. Feel free to disagree with them as well if it's nothing personal :)

And another thing, bumbley. You must surely agree with this part of caillin's post:

It doesn't make me feel ok about that the fact that a fucking JUDGE here in the UK told a man he understands why he raped a sleeping woman.

Do you understand that a man can be so animalistic that he can't stop himself raping a sleeping woman?? This man was convicted and is now in prison (although if prison wasn't mandatory for rape, one wonders what this judge's sentence would have been). This is blatant misogyny and rape culture being displayed. That men can't help themselves when it comes to abusing and raping women?

Ummmm how does me not agreeing with a blanket statement 'men despise women' equate to me thinking that men can't stop themselves raping someone?

Well, if you don't agree with it, you agree there is misogyny inherent and still alive in our legal system - as shown in this diabolical judge's words. Misogyny is the despising of women.

Yes, Sabrina, I know what misogyny is. Does an example (or even ten +) of misogyny or discrimination mean that the blanket statement 'men hate women' is true? I don't think it does.

Men tend to tolerate the misogyny in the system because it benefits them. The default in society = man. That is the patriarchy. Certain women also tolerate this - prop up the status quo, and excuse it, deny it. I'll never understand why, but they do. It doesn't mean it's right to do this.

Does any of that mean that the blanket statement "men despise women" is true? No , I don't think it does. I think you are finding the examples that support your opinion and ignoring the ones that do not. Very clear on this thread when anyone who disagrees and explains why is told that they don't understand or are burying their head in the sand.