Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

I would argue dancing that there is definitely a taboo for men around sexual assault, but that when they do report it, they are much less likely to be asked what they were wearing, where they were, whether they led the other person on etc.

If you read this report you will see a very clear case of a judge pretty much excusing rape on the basis that a man simply can't resist a woman who happens to be sleeping in his vicinity.

No they wouldn't be asked those things, Cailindana. But they would get suggestions that they were a queer, or a wuss. The woman gets disbelieved, the feller laughed at. As I say, different dynamics. For what it's worth, I'm not disputing that sexual assault on males is, speaking generally, as big a problem as assault/rape of females, though of course this is no comfort to individual victims.

That judge is a dinosaur, obviously.

I disagree that encouraging women to be assertive, independent and to reject poor treatment is a prejudiced statement. I think it's a very healthy approach to all aspects of life and can be applied regardless of gender, race, creed etc. I would give a man exactly the same advice.

However men - as a group - are a special case for women if for no other reason than the social expectation is that, all things being heterosexual, they're going to end up pair bonding with some of them. Even if you took everything else out of the equation - work, public life, opportunities, income etc - we still haven't got that basic building block right and women too often end up expected to be passive, dependent and accepting of poor treatment. The polar opposite of what I fight for.

Are you aware dancing that up until 1991 it was legal for a man to rape his wife?

"What are you saying that women want/need and don't get because men as a class despise them?"

I'm sure that women have as many and as varied wants and needs as men, but they are much more restricted in terms of what is permitted them. Fundamentally though, they want equality of opportunity and respect as human beings of equal status. I don't believe they have this. It's not about being seen as the same as men, but being seen as human beings equally as deserving of respect and not being prejudged in terms of your individual skills, desires, reactions etc based on your genitalia.

"What things do you think have not been made available to women?"

Children are socialised into gender roles from the moment they are born. So anything that is deemed as for the opposite sex they are steered away from in terms of toys bought for them, activities organised, the vocabulary used to describe their behaviour etc.

Yes I was. I agree that it was a despicable law.

Cogito, fair enough, that's a more reasoned response than I was expecting if I'm honest. I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. I'm going to go away and try to get your head round your second. My initial response is that I am not quite sure that it passes the bog-standard 'prejudice' smell test. I recognise that there are gender inequalities, including those based around accepted roles. but I am not convinced they justify making the leap that all men should be treated with extra suspicion in every situation (or maybe that's not what you're saying). Like I say, I will go away and absorb

On te despising thing - it has already been explaine very well on this thread the context of Germaine Greer's statement. And it's not about pointing at each individual man and saying "you despise women". It's that society is so engineered to disadvantage women, and the vast majority of men, even those who generally do treat women as equals, are unwilling to cede any more privilege than they absolutely have to. If that's not implicit contempt I don't know what is

I have to admit dancing that I do treat all men with suspicion. I don't see that as prejudice, I see that as learning from the past. Men who have claimed to be my friend, who have said they loved me, have hurt me very badly in ways that women never have. So I have to protect myself and assume that that might happen again.

Re men who don't conform to the patriarchal standards, there is an argument that says that as far as the patriarchy is concerned they are women (I.e. Not-men) and can therefore legitimately be treated with the same contempt

Every single man I know has at some point said something that revealed to me that they view women as somehow lesser than them. That includes my DH whom I love very much.

Sorry that should say "said or done something"

cailindana, I'm sorry that that is how you feel (genuinely). It's not my experience of the majority of men. I don't see women as any lesser than men (please don't try to convince me otherwise). And I am certain that most of my close mates would be of a similar mind (there is perhaps one to whom this doesn't apply, and I'm less friendly with him nowadays partly because of that).

And it's not about pointing at each individual man and saying "you despise women". It's that society is so engineered to disadvantage women, and the vast majority of men, even those who generally do treat women as equals, are unwilling to cede any more privilege than they absolutely have to. If that's not implicit contempt I don't know what is

Petula, that's not implicit contempt in my book, it's putting number one first. That doesn't justify the structures that facilitate it, but it sure as hell doesn't amount to 'contempt'

Who are the 'patriarchy' by the way?

You have experienced men as a man, as a peer who is part of the same group. Inevitably your experience of men will be very different from my experience of them.

Also, dancing, I find it very hard to believe that you have never insulted someone by implying they're a "girl" or that you have never made a negative comment about women.

"it's putting number one first"

Which is what men in general are socialised to do. Women in general are socialised to put themselves last

In that instance I would say that the agents of the patriarchy are those trying to maintain the status quo and uphold its values. So in the case of abusing men who deviate from acceptable man traits it is the abusers

Agree completely with what Jazz said earlier in the thread. Lots of men are conditioned to mistrust, misunderstand and yes despise women.

I find it very hard to believe that you have never insulted someone by implying they're a "girl" or that you have never made a negative comment about women.

Cailindana, not since the age of about 14. Don't be so insulting. I'm debating with you respectfully, why can't you do the same?

^"it's putting number one first"

Which is what men in general are socialised to do. Women in general are socialised to put themselves last^

I would say that both men and women have been conditioned to put themselves, a process that accelerated from around 1979.

the patriarchy are those trying to maintain the status quo and uphold its values. So in the case of abusing men who deviate from acceptable man traits it is the abusers

So you agree that the problem is not men, but men who seek to leverage and entrench their privilege ie. arseholes? I will agree with you that arseholes are the nub of the problem, and these come in all varieties.

Sorry that last post is largely gibberish. it should read 'I would say that both men and women have been conditioned to put themselves first', and the last two comments are obviously in response to petula.

"So you agree that the problem is not men, but men who seek to leverage and entrench their privilege ie. arseholes"

I think it varies according to what privilege is being defended what portion and proportion of men that is

I'm not trying to be insulting dancing. My point is, you have at some point in your life called someone a girl as an insult.
I was brought up a girl, called a girl on a regular basis. I live in society where "girl" is an insult as well as a noun. To call a male a girl is to imply he's weak, lesser, somehow wrong. You have used in it that way. You have at some point seen being female as a lesser state of being. "Calm down ladies" is used in mainstream films as a legitimate way of implying that men are silly and hysterical. "Throw like a girl" is a well-known phrase to imply a throw is rubbish.
That's the society I live in. Can you see how something seemingly small like that erode's girls and women's confidence, makes them feel put down?
I have only ever heard "boy" being used being used as an insult by white people to black people, never as an insult to a white male or female.

The patriarchy is the system we live in. It's the system whereby the vast majority of our political leaders are male. Where, within my lifetime, it was legal for a man to rape his wife. Where the Anglican church felt justified, up to last week, in "allowing" women to be priests but not bishops. Where most other religions still bar women from any position of power. Where judges still have sympathy for a man who rapes a sleeping woman because how can a man control himself, poor thing. Where celebrities like Savile and Harris sexually assaulted women on camera and expected to get away with it, and did for a long time. Where the Sun, supposedly a newspaper, runs a picture of a woman's breasts on page three. Where pictures of dead children from Palestine are allowed up on Facebook because they are not considered offensive, but pictures of breastfeeding are taken down because they are considered offensive.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Ugh, stray comma. That should say "erodes girls' and women's confidence"

I dont think any man I have ever met as thought Im lesser than them. I cant believe you think your dh thinks that of you cailindana

it's putting number one first

so if men have more power, and women less, putting yourself first, means using your greater power to hold a woman back.

He does indeed melissa. He has unilaterally made decisions that have impacted on my life without thinking about it because he grew up with a traditional family in which his father was the person and his mother was just the appendage. He expected me to be like that. I soon let him know that wasn't going to happen but it took a long while to sink in.