Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

what discrimination do you agree exists then?

Tbh it comes across as if some of you have a chip on your shoulder and are almost looking for someone to blame for why you feel you haven't achieved your ambitions

Bingo. Feminists are bitter. < marks card >

So - some men despise women, some men despise all women?

And some feminists are bitter (and some women despise men). Is that it?

Bumbley, is that really what you took from my post?

I think of equality a bit like housing. Bear with me.

A hundred years ago women were all homeless and men all had houses. With each bit of legislation the women moved into a shack, then a bedsit, then a flat. In some countries they're in shacks still, in others they've got as far as double glazing and a garage.

We're supposed to be grateful for the roof over our head, and yes compared with Nigerian girls we should be. But still the roof leaks and the kitchen isn't big enough.

And meanwhile our brothers, male cousins, husbands, male colleagues are in mansions. And when we think about moving house we get a head tilt and a "but what about your children?"

It's not a brilliant analogy but it's given me a handle on inequality.

Males seahorses give birth, some men can lactate. Nature is wonderful thing!

"Good for you Cogito. Plenty or all? Do you blame men for any/all of the ones you haven't achieved?"

What I have learned after the event is that quite a few of my achievements, which I naively thought were supported by men at the time, have been made in spite of male opposition. I have also learned that a few times when I didn't achieve something and blamed myself, I was actually set up to fail. Not always by men, I hasten to add, but more often than not. It's not exclusive to me of course, I've seen it happen to other women so often that it's depressing. Let down by the very people who claimed to have their best interests at heart.

So I don't waste too much time retrospectively blaming men, but I do take every opportunity to advise women to dig a little deeper when dealing with men - whether in a relationship, professional or any other setting - always assert themselves and not be quite so trusting.

Are you being deliberately obtuse bumbley or is that genuinely what you understood my post to mean; that I was asserting that no men ever do housework?!

loomineer - that is how women in the workplace can get called ball-breakers or unfeminine isn't it? Because to get heard you HAVE TO SHOUT!. I have been in meetings at times where I wondered if I had actually lost my voice because no bugger was listening to me! I find myself getting angry and having to suppress it because an angry woman is a joke

no

Yes.

maybe

Petula, there are many types of discrimination that exist. I don't think that suggests that women despise men though. Can you answer my question?
What are you saying that women want/need and don't get because men as a class despise them?
And
What things do you think have not been made available to women?

Is the 'bingo' thing still going on? It's a bit tired. Yes, I think some women come across as bitter.

Fatal, except that it's inaccurate. Women are not all living in worse conditions than all men and they can choose whether to build a better house (or whatever way you want to put it) or have children.

If men and women were both capable of giving birth to and feeding young children and yet it always fell to the women then yes, you could say it was unequal. That's not the case though. We can do something that men can not so we have to accept that we are different and that other areas of our life eg career progression may be different as a result.

Cogito, so you think that because some men (and some women) have set you up to fail or have opposed you means that men as a class hate women? Do you not think that is a bit of jump?

Sorry correction to first para - I don't think that means that men despise women though.

Bumbley, I'm curious what you make of the judge's comments in this report?

Also what is your opinion of the fact that between 1 in 6 and 1 in 5 women is sexually assaulted, while the conviction rate for such offences is so low as to be described by the justice minister as "abhorrent."

Cailindana, why do you think that that conviction rate is so low? I mean, it is too low, but what causes that?

I don't think it's that big a jump, no. My experience has simply led me to subtly shift emphasis from believing men who claim to be on my side are genuine to assuming that they are not, and it's been a reasonably good strategy so far. I'm not quite so cynical about women as a species because the ones who have let me down in the past have been far more overt about it. Less duplicitous at any rate.

I try to be consistent with suggestions on MN. They could probably be summed up as a) maintain your independence, b) assert yourself and c) reject poor treatment out of hand. In general, but especially when there is a man involved.

Something that's bothering me about this thread is this notion that men as a class despise women as a class. I think that discussion is occurring without any real sense of what as a class means. As I see it there are three possibilities:

All men despise women [clearly false]
Some men despise women [clearly true]
A majority of men despise women [I know quite a few men, being one, and I would suggest that this is false though I can see how some people could arrive at a different opinion.

So, those people arguing this, which is it, please?

They could probably be summed up as a) maintain your independence, b) assert yourself and c) reject poor treatment out of hand. In general, but especially when there is a man involved.

Cogito, what would your response be to someone making the inverse statement? Or substituting the word 'a man' with 'a black person'?

The thing is, even if one accepts the existence of the patriarchy, it is still a leap to conclude that 'men despise women'.

The patriarchy does not equal 'men'. It is a system that favours them but that men are equally subject to and that women are often equally complicit in. Both men and women can have ideas about gender that are informed by it, and plenty of men despise women because of the 'othering' that has been mentioned, but I don't see how it proves that men as a class despise women.

"Cogito, what would your response be to someone making the inverse statement? Or substituting the word 'a man' with 'a black person'?"

If I thought you were genuinely interested in my response I'd reply but I suspect you're simply posturing.

There are a few documented reasons dancing.

There has been a history of the police force not taking sexual assault and rape claims seriously, with officers being jailed for falsifying records in order to avoid investigating rape cases. In 2012, an officer in the specialist rape investigation Sapphire Unit of the Metropolitan police was jailed for failing to investigate cases.
John Worboys was left free to attack hundreds of women because officers did not believe victims' reports of being assaulted. In 2010 there was supposed to be a major review into the handling of rape cases as the track record of the justice system was so poor but it was shelved due to budget restraints.

As we are seeing now in high-profile cases of celebrities, victims of all ages and both genders were ignored when they reported sexual assault. This affected men and boys but disproportionately affected women who were more often the targets of these predators.

The reason I and my friends didn't report our assaults was because we felt ashamed. Society doesn't encourage women to talk about sexual violence, it's all hush-hush and "not appropriate conversation," which keeps victims silent and lets rapists continue.

Come on, it's a valid question. I'm interested in your response because I want to know why you think prejudice against one group is acceptable but (I assume) not others.

Also, dancing, well-meaning campaigns that say to women "don't get drunk" "don't go out alone" etc send a very strong signal that women are responsible for stopping rape, when of course, it's impossible for us to do that as we are not the ones who do it in the first place. That sense that if we get drunk, if we go out late, if we go back to a man's house then we are somehow to blame, stops women from reporting rape as that sense of being blamed is absolutely devastating.

That's interesting, Calindana, thanks. I agree the 'don't get drunk'/'don't wear a short skirt' meme is a crock of shit, for various reasons, for exactly the reasons you say.

Regarding the problems with the justice system, I would suggest that male victims of sexual assault (by men or by women) have also been given short shrift in the past, though obviously the dynamics are not identical.