Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

bumbley, we get it, you think the battle is won and the feminists can all go home now. lots of us don't

Cogito, and I (and several others) disagree that men despise women either as a class or otherwise. I see a lot of resentment from women on this thread and I can't say that it's justified. Tbh it comes across as if some of you have a chip on your shoulder and are almost looking for someone to blame for why you feel you haven't achieved your ambitions.

Twinkle, do you think mammals stop raising their young the moment that they give birth and stop suckling? Pretty sure that the mother has a lot more to teach them after that but hey ho maybe that's just social conditioning in the animal kingdom. :)

Nope, I just think that some of the problems and barriers are created in people's heads and exaggerated to the extent that they believe an entire sex despises another as a class. We can agree to disagree :)

That's fine Bumbley, thanks for sharing your opinion.

You're welcome Cailin. I hope people will actually take it on board rather than dismissing me as someone who doesn't understand the plight of women or is burying her head in the sand etc.

So you've never seen any woman struggle comparative to men to get to where she wants to go before she has children bumbley?

The 'choice' to have kids is always used against women to justify why they can't get where they want, but children do not affect men's career prospects in the slightest. Post maternity is the point at which men and women's pay and prospects start to diverge widely, and for many women they never recover.

Most women I know would choose to retain their pay and employment status and have children, but for many that's not possible. Some simply cannot go back to where they were, or can't fit their old working hours round kids. Flexible or school hours jobs are gold dust, and some women find extortionate childcare costs mean that work sometimes doesn't pay, or they find themselves landed with the slog of FT work and primary carer duties.

"Tbh it comes across as if some of you have a chip on your shoulder and are almost looking for someone to blame for why you feel you haven't achieved your ambitions"

LOL! I've achieved plenty of my ambitions thank you very much.

i'm afraid bumbleymummy it does rather sound as though you are looking at your own circumstances and assuming every other woman is the same, rather than listening to the experiences of others and considering that they may have wanted different things from life to you. great if the way the society is set up works for you and gives you what you want and need. why though would you want to stop other women trying to get what they need? is it because that might make things more difficult for you?

Are women 'biologically designed' to do unpaid domestic labour too?

I think you are still conflating issue bumbley. Women carry the baby, give birth and breast feed because of biology but that is nothing to do with rearing the child, that is a short period of dependence on the mother specifically for nourishment. There is no reason why men cannot actually raise children.

Also, why aren't more men turning down career opportunities because they don't fit around their families in the way they would like?

Depends on the mammal bumbley but generally once animals have been weaned, can walk or fly they're on their own. Some animals are raised in packs by the community. You don't think the fathers have anything to contribute?

Equally, we're not animals...

Twinklestein, personally, no. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen though. HOWEVER, I do not think that means that men despise women as a class or otherwise.

Men can't have children so of course there will be a difference if a woman takes time off to have a baby when a man does not. Many women choose to return to work part time as well so that would impact on their pay and prospects too. Again, you seem to be suggesting that career/pay grade is some sort of mark of success.

Do you think the things you are mentioning support the idea that men despise women?

Good for you Cogito. Plenty or all? Do you blame men for any/all of the ones you haven't achieved?

Also do you understand that if your male provider had said he wasn't going to financially support you you would have had your choice restricted and that conversely if you wanted to work he could have constricted your choices by refusing to pay towards childcare?

You may say 'oh but then he'd be abusive and I'd leave' but leaving would also constrict your choices and you'd be missing the pertinent point about your choices being shaped by your male provider's and the state's whim and wish and not just your preferences/desires.

it's not as simple as having set goals and men standing in the way of them. women (as a class, note) have it instilled in them at a very very early age that certain things are not for them to achieve - it's not that the idea is conceived and dismissed, or the goal decided on and not achieved - it's that it's not even considered in the first place. who knows what women would achieve professionally, personally, culturally etc if they had the realm of opportunity open to them that men have?

LOL! I've achieved plenty of my ambitions thank you very much

Well quite. I've achieved what I wanted and more, but I started in a very male dominated field and it was a slog. I then set up my own companies to work by my own rules.

It doesn't make me unaware of the challenges other women face.

That's an extremely good point petula. If you are socialised to believe that women raise children and keep the home then you end up seeing no problem with a society where it is overwhelmingly women who have to fit childcare and domestic work around their paid employment.

The fact that there are some women who achieve inspire of this is not evidence that this belief is not deeply ingrained in society and in fact evidence shows even when women achieve better in the workplace than their male partners they still take on a greater share of the home and childcare responsibilities.

Men can't have children so of course there will be a difference if a woman takes time off to have a baby when a man does not. Many women choose to return to work part time as well so that would impact on their pay and prospects too. Again, you seem to be suggesting that career/pay grade is some sort of mark of success.

Many women choose to go back to work full time but can't find work to fit around family hours, just like you. Good luck with that. Many end up working part time because that's the only thing they can get that will fit; many because full time childcare is so expensive that it would cancel out their salary. Some find that the time out for children means that their industry has moved on and their company is reluctant to fork out for retraining.

I'm not citing career and pay grade as a mark of success but of equality.

Petula, not at all. I have quite a wide circle of friends and I don't think any of us have experienced being despised by men as a class. We may have come across some pretty horrible people in our time - men and women.

What are you saying that women want/need and don't get because men as a class despise them?

Offred, women don't have to do housework. Men are perfectly capable of doing their share. They may struggle to give birth and bf though I haven't said that the women is the only person raising the child, just that, in nature, many of the duties do fall to the mother. It's not exclusive to humans so I don't think you can blame it on men despising women.

Some men do turn down opportunities - business trips abroad, overtime etc. I've seen many men who would have worked overtime until very late start to leave on time once a baby comes along.

Twinkle, as above, I haven't said that only women raise the child - just that, in nature, many of those duties fall to the female so it's not like it's being consciously put upon us by men in our society.

Why do you assume that because I disagree that men despise women that I do not think that discrimination exists or that some women are struggling in their particular circumstances?

Of course men can do housework but why aren't they?

I don't agree that men as a class actually despise women as a class.

I think you do not see discrimination because of all the guff you are pulling out about nature and child rearing being the mother's job.

In nature many of the child duties fall to the male too like protecting the nest, hunting prey, fighting off predators etc, so your analogy doesn't even work.

Offred, "male provider". WEll, yes, most partners in a relationship will be male and yes, they may restrict your choices. If I was in a same sex relationship my partner would also be capable of restricting my choices. I think the point is that, as a partner, they can influence your decisions - it's not just because they are male.

Petula, what sort of things?

Twinkle, Why should a woman who has taken years out of her career be on the same pay grade as a man or another woman who has not? How would that be equal?

Offred, you don't think men ever do housework? I don't think I know any who don't tbh. I'm sure there may be some out there who don't but I don't think that proves that men despise women - do you?

Twinkle, I haven't said that the males don't have any duties.

Offred, well we agree on the 'despise' thing then. You have just jumped to the wrong conclusion about the discrimination thing.