Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

Regarding the playground analogy, what if girls actually are less capable at throwing things than boys?

I think you've explained it very well Capt, and agree with Keep, its the acceptance of the concept that some people find difficult. Thus some of the assertions on this thread to the contrary.

And yet when you you ask these same people why there are fewer women in parliament, or in senior management positions, these people will say "Gee, I don't know". As small as comments like "you [run, or whatever] like a girl" may appear on an individual basis, over a lifetime, they amount to a great deal.

Sure. Because if someone disagrees with you they're just burying their head in the sand/ not understanding. how patronising.

Perhaps fewer women advance to the top level in their career because they choose to stay at home with their children. Perhaps the problem is that you don't see that as an achievement and consider reaching senior management more of a measurement of success?

Just maybe a smaller proportion of women actually want to be in Parliament, or in senior management positions. Just as there are fewer women working in sewers, or in mining, or diffusing IEDs for the Army.

given that a far greater proportion of women than men have been denied the opportunity to see whether they would like a senior management / parliamentary / other leadership position, it's not really possible to say whether they want it or not

Bumbley, less than 100 years ago women weren't even allowed to vote, we had no voice whatsoever in politics or in power. Things have moved on a lot since then, which is great, but we are nowhere near a full recovery from that level of powerlessness. Once, we were seen as no better than children. Now we are seen as a "nice addition" to the real world, the world of men. What feminists want is just the same opportunities as men. Do you object to that?

I disagree that we are seen as a 'nice addition to the world of men'.

What opportunities do you want that you feel you don't have?

Why do you compare yourself to men as if what they have is the gold standard?

I also think that some feminists want more than equality.

I don't compare myself to men as if what they have is the gold standard. What I see is that up until 1918 men and only men made every single decision to do with everyone's lives. Not being part of the decision-making process is dangerous - it leads to situations where rape in marriage was legal up until 1992, where rape and sexual assault were seen as the victim's fault, where women were forced to leave work when they married. It narrows your choices. You can see that can't you?

At work right now but would need to take time out as, for the moment, it's impossible to have a rational discussion of the topic.

There are none so blind as those who abjectly refuse to see and have a vested interest in the status quo.

I don't think there's any dispute that women's economic opportunities are fewer than men's, as a class. Also that women's lives are dictated much more than men's by both childcare and housework responsibilities which are unpaid and exploitative and which in many cases they are not able to exercise control or choice over except with permission from male heads of households and (largely) male legislators. Also that where women are in the labour market their careers and pay are shaped and limited by these childcare/housework responsibilities, sexual bullying and protective behaviour surrounding male privilege by those in privileged positions.

There is no doubt about this in my mind.

I do think men as a class see women as a class enemy, I'm confident this results in contemptuous and despicable behaviour although might not say men as a class despise women as I think contemptuous behaviour towards women as a class is simply a means to the end of maintaining male privilege. I agree with Cailin about unconscious male privilege behaviour by otherwise enlightened men. I think this is somewhat inevitable. I agree that as a white person I am likely to be equally and passively maintaining a white privilege. I also think there are women who, in trying to overcome barriers to them as individuals, are trying to be accepted as part of the male class by employing certain types of behaviours which have been attached to 'men' and that some are being accepted and have become part of the oppressive 'male class'.

It is murky.

I think it's also interesting that a couple of men on this thread have been simultaneously keen to deny the existence of male/female class issues AND distance themselves from the male class by describing themselves as 'nice guys'. The idea of 'nice guys' as separate from not nice guys in this discussion does rather imply acceptance of the idea of men as a class treating women negatively. As does some of the sexual bullying nice guys experience from the male class (whether actual perpetrator is actually make or female).

I think while there is still clear, distinguishable male and female classes it is clear we have not achieved equality. No matter if some men have been co-opted into the female (or other) class and some women into the male class.

We don't live in 1918 anymore. Men are not making all the decisions. I think you are comparing yourself to men because you said that you want the same opportunities that men have.
What opportunities do you feel that you do not have in today's society?

Capt, I have no vested interest in the status quo. I think it is extremely patronising to suggest that people who do not agree with you are 'blind'. Perhaps you are the one who is seeing things that are not there.

What I'm saying is, Bumbley, men had all of the power up until 100 years ago. We are still in the process of redressing the balance from that.

In terms of opportunities, I would like to be able to go out late and not be told I'll get raped. I'd like to wear shorts without shaving my legs and not get stared at. I'd like to open a newspaper and see women talked about as leaders and policy makers rather than to see articles about how thin they are and about how lovely/not lovely they look. I'd like to see more women in parliament.

You don't believe there's any problem, that's fine. But you're not going to convince me of it. I don't think I'm going to convince you of my viewpoint either.

The thing is, men and women are different. Women are able to have babies and many women decide that they want to raise their children rather than further their career. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Why should a career be seen as a be all and end all or a marker for success? I certainly don't think of it that way. Those opportunities were open to me and I decided not to take them.

I don't see a career as the be all and end all or a marker of success. I have never once said that. I work very part time but I'm mostly a SAHM and am very happy to be that.

There is no denying that men and women differ in the fact that women have babies and men don't. There's no issue with that. I have never mentioned anything about that, and I don't think anyone else has either.

That is only part of the issue bumbley. Society does not economically value child rearing and men who wish to child rear have to make a conscious choice to leave the labour market whereas women have to make a conscious choice to return, if they do; even if they earn more than their male partners, they still do more housework/childcare. This clearly demonstrates that the standard expectation is that women do the unvalued and unpaid caring/domestic work. In addition to this, given paid employment is a privileged position compared to unpaid domestic work which is subject to economic sanctions and social stigmas, what men are going to choose to opt out in order to allow women to opt in?

**What men are going to opt out

I really don't think those things suggest that men as a class hate women.

You can go out late and probably will not get raped. The majority of rapes are not carried out by strangers waiting to jump on unsuspecting women. Men are at risk of being attacked when they go out and many take precautions too. However, the potential consequences to women can be far greater which may be why it raises more concern. Why shouldn't people worry about you?

You can have hairy legs if you want. Some people do. Many women in Europe don't shave their body hair. Why do you care if people stare? If you dyed your hair blue they might stare too - would that stop you?

There are magazines talking about how lovely men look too. Many women like to read about what other women are wearing and their exercise regimes.

As someone pointed out earlier, maybe a lower percentage of women actually want to be in parliament just as a lower percentage of women prefer other jobs. If women decide that they'd prefer to put their family before career then why should they expect to advance to the same level as someone male/female who has not made that decision.

I think your perception of these things may be skewed to think the worst about the intent behind them tbh.

Offred, the raising of most young mammals falls primarily to the female. It is what we are biologically designed to do so that is probably why it is the "standard expectation". However, women can and do make the conscious choice to leave the labour market and to return. Again we seem to be thinking that paid employment and having a successful career is the be all and end all.

So essentially bumbley you're saying that you eschewed the opportunity of a career to raise a family, so you really have no idea what issues women face in ftse 100 companies, legal or medical professions, broadcasting, politics etc because you have no experience of it.

You can say maybe women choose not to go into positions at the top of professional life, because you've really no idea how hard it is for women to get there.

"Why should a career be seen as a be all and end all or a marker for success?"

It isn't. But the difference is that very rarely, if ever, has a man been expected to justify how he juggles the concepts of 'father' and 'career'. The phrase 'Working Fathers' is just not on the radar, let alone being a controversial topic.

I think we're straying from the point, however. The topic is 'do men despise women?'... and I still maintain that women do not appreciate just how much men despise them. Not all men but enough of the population to make it a very real problem. This lack of appreciation means that a lot of women believe they have things like equality, freedom, love and respect when they don't. It's why the 'red flag' is so easily missed.

It's a truth universally acknowledged that the first someone might see of abuse in a partner is at the time of the first child. It's all going very well, they work great as a couple, the relationship has no problems at all but then the woman has become a little more dependent because of a baby and.... bam!.... there it is. The contempt that was always under the surface suddenly becomes very real indeed.

We're biologically designed to give birth to and breast feed children, we're not biologically designed to 'raise' children beyond that any more than men are.

You're confusing biology with social conditioning, which has always been conflated by men in an attempt to convince women that their place is in the home.

"You're confusing biology with social conditioning"

Well said. It's why there are women in Saudia Arabia campaigning against women being able to drive and why there are women here campaigning against women bishops.... they take social conditioning and deem it 'the natural order of things'. It's pathetic.

Ok, Bumbley, great. Like I said, you don't see a problem, I do. I won't convince you, you won't convince me.

Actually, twinkle, I'm back in my industry now and several opportunities have been offered to me. I am still turning down some of them because they don't fit around my family the way I would like them to. I have a few friends in some of the industries that you have mentioned and I can't see that any of them have had problems either tbh. Yes, they may have taken longer to get where they are compared to their male colleagues but that it because they chose to take time out from their career.