Do men despise women.

[Loomineer]

On another thread read comments about women not realising how much men despise them. It got me thinking how in my relationships I've looked back and thought god. They really despised me.

My best friend is in a relationship where to me her dp treats her like he despises her.

I am not a man hater by any means. I just wondered what other people thought.

an example of an equal man and woman, and the woman gaining an advantage?

Yeah Map

There was a time when football was seen as a women's sport. Before the 1920's women were playing to capacity crowds. that was, of course, before money got involved and suddenly it became something that men do better

I think the best illustration for all those who can't see it is to consider what the worst swear word you can think of is. I would hazard a guess that most of you come up with something involving women's genitalia.

"being male is definitely something that improves someone's life chances" - doesn't this mean all men benefit from being male, dancing?

"A black guy with a physical disability born on a council estate to abusive parents does not benefit from 'privilege' for example" - so do you think that being male doesn't improve the life chances of that black disabled man when compared to the life chances of a woman in exactly the same situation?

I'm sure there are men who would love to be PAs and secretaries, or teaching assistants who didn't progress their careers.

Bear - he benefits from a privilege that his sister does not, though

All things being equal, men have advantages that women don't

I'm also sure there are boys who are failing at school because of attitudes that studying is not for them compared to their sisters.

My point here is that I agree wholeheartedly, in the aggregate, men have advantages over women, that doesn't always break down to the individual

"A black guy with a physical disability born on a council estate to abusive parents does not benefit from 'privilege' for example" - so do you think that being male doesn't improve the life chances of that black disabled man when compared to the life chances of a woman in exactly the same situation?

Yes, probably. But it's grossly misleading to call that 'privilege'.

My point here is that I agree wholeheartedly, in the aggregate, men have advantages over women, that doesn't always break down to the individual

Yes, this.

As far as I see it, these sorts of class statements are designed to stimulate debate, and yes shock.

Men are engineers: correct. That should also shock as we ask ourselves why that should have become the case. But why DO we say things like this? To put off girls wanting to become engineers, that sort of thing. So instead of shocking, it becomes mocking.

Men are rapists: factually correct but IMO not helpful descriptor as this defines a minority within the group of men.

Men despise women: also correct. I would argue useful too as it describes an internalised attitude of a majority of men towards women. It isn't through passive neglect (compare, for instance, with not caring enough about starving Africans) but an active contempt alive in today's society.

FlatPacker, are you suggesting that a majority of men despise women (not just possess some element of prejudice of one kind or another)? I presume so given that you contrast that statement with 'men are rapists' because the latter 'defines a minority'?

I'm not going to have a go at you for thinking this. But I just think it's really, really not the case, and it depresses me that people think it is. Certainly there are men who are arseholes and misogynists. But from my perspective they tend to stick out like a sore thumb, which suggests there aren't that many as a percentage.

So man benefits from being a man even if he is disadvantaged in other ways. Surely that is privilege dancing? Or what would you call it?

cailin, would you say to the woman in the same situation that she should be thankful for her privilege and should fight against, because she's not living in a slum in Lagos?

But tdb, this is the problem that I think the class statement intends to address (and has been said umpteen times on this thread much better than me). Those nasty misogynist types, that's not Every Day Man. That's the shyster down the pub/taxi driver bla. This everyday contempt of women, the sort that prompts comments like 'you run like a girl', runs wide and deep, and yes, a majority of men I have met think and talk this way.

I didn't say he should be thankful. What I'm saying is all men benefit from being male, regardless of other circumstances. That is a fact and one that women have to live with.

I disagree that arseholes and misogynists stick out like sore thumbs dancing. The man who raped me as a child was a respected teacher that was invited into my home by my parents. The man who raped me as an adult was a considerate boyfriend who listened to me talk for hours about how the childhood abuse had affected me before going on to abuse me himself. He didn't even recognise that he had raped me. If you talk to enough women and really listen to their stories you will find the arseholes and misogynists are everywhere. They look like you, and talk like you. They aren't baddies with tatoos on their necks and vicious dogs on a piece of string. They hold positions of power (look at all the abuse allegations coming out now) and are well loved by people who don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

I'd call it a marginal advantage in an extremely shit situation.

My broader point is that we all benefit or suffer from a matrix of advantages and disadvantages. I was fortunate enough (and 'fortunate' feels like the wrong term here, but you know what I mean) to be born white and male. I was unfortunate to be born onto a really very very fucked up council estate, and with a (slight) disability (and these two are a bad combination, I can assure you). I reject the idea that I am, in a broad sense, 'privileged' by virtue of these facts. Of course being male may have given me an advantage in some respects but I suggest the majority of females in the UK were dealt a better initial hand than I (and many, many other men) had.

Against this background, the suggestion that 'all men are privileged' really sticks in the craw.

I get what you're saying dancing. I'm not denying that living in certain areas or having a disability disadvantages you. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about men and women. And men do have an advantage over women.

I disagree that arseholes and misogynists stick out like sore thumbs dancing. The man who raped me as a child was a respected teacher that was invited into my home by my parents. The man who raped me as an adult was a considerate boyfriend who listened to me talk for hours about how the childhood abuse had affected me before going on to abuse me himself. He didn't even recognise that he had raped me. If you talk to enough women and really listen to their stories you will find the arseholes and misogynists are everywhere. They look like you, and talk like you. They aren't baddies with tatoos on their necks and vicious dogs on a piece of string. They hold positions of power (look at all the abuse allegations coming out now) and are well loved by people who don't know what goes on behind closed doors

That's a fair point (and I'm sorry these things happened to you), though I would maintain that the common-or-garden misogynist twat will very often out himself pretty quickly.

And men do have an advantage over women.

Not all of them. It's the generalisation that's the problem. Some men have more advantages than women. Some women (fewer) have advantages over men. dealing in absolutes here is really pernicious.

A certain type of misogynist will out himself pretty fast. And they're not really a problem - everyone can see for themselves what they're like. The problematic ones are the ones who claim they're on your side, know what you're talking about etc and then crush you in some way. I honestly think my boyfriend didn't realise that what he did was wrong. It is frightening that someone can grow up with the message that you can just have sex with a woman when you want and it's not a problem. But that's what he thought.

Can you give me an example of where, all things being equal, a woman will have an advantage over a man dancing?

I don't think a majority of men "despise" women. I do think that both men and women often have a rather complex set of emotions and opinions when it comes to the opposite sex.

I think there is a sizeable group of men that feel lost and inadequate, particularly in modern society. I think they fear they are unable to adapt to a world that is changing. Different skills, different attitudes are increasingly being rewarded, men and women that possess those skills are doing better and a whole class of men that lack those skills are seeing their opportunities diminish. They don't have the tools, or they lack the motivation to respond.

Loss of economic status, loss of social status, loss of a sense of a role in the modern world, all that feeds through into anger directed at people who seem to be doing better just as they are doing worse. I think men who fall into that category direct anger and frustration at women, just as they probably direct it at immigrants, gays or any other group they perceive as doing better than they are or having things that they lack (even something a simple as a sense of identity).

I don't think men who are happy, confident in themselves and have a positive attitude to how they will succeed in a changing world despise women at all. Luckily those are the sorts of men I know.

the dancingbear, there is a very good explanation here, written by a man, about how it works without using the term "privilege"