Have a really bad relationship with MIL- could do with some feedback.

[bigbluecat]

I don't really know what I want from this post other than just to be able to talk (or rather type) it through, and to get a bit of advice on how to deal with this - let me know if I'm being unfair and to what extent, and if I'm not, tell me how to just smile and nod because I find it really hard...

I started a relationship with DH when we were both teenagers - we've been together for 7 years now. Neither of us were in great mental health back then and our relationship was awfully dysfunctional for a long time - he was quite emotionally abusive to me for years.

DH and I are ok now, but I bring up the past abuse because I feel that on some level I may blame MIL for causing it (she was not a very 'involved' mother and was/still is emotionally abusive towards FIL) and not helping me (I tried to tell her how DH was towards me at one point and it was like she was literally unable to comprehend what I was saying). I realise this may be unfair.

Things didn't start getting bad between me and MIL until I had DC1. She flat out told me that she was, in her words, "the matriarch of the family", and became very controlling and competitive with me.

An example: once, when DS was a baby, we were staying over the PILs' house and the train journey and mucked up his sleeping. I was trying to rock him to sleep and he was whingeing quite loudly. MIL came in and tried to pull DS out of my arms saying "I'll get the baby to sleep." I held onto him and said, politely, "Oh, no thank you, I'll do it." She kept pulling and said, "No, I'll take him, I'll be able to do it quicker." When I repeated that I'd do it (DS barely knew her a that point and was more comfortable with me) she flew into a rage and started swearing and shouting at me.

Another example: On DS's third birthday, PILs came over and we were sitting in the garden as DC unwrapped presents. DS handed DH a present to assemble. MIL said, "You'd better read the instructions first." I laughed and said, "Oh, DH never reads instructions!" (A fairly innocuous/jokey comment, I thought?) MIL snaps back, "Well you don't have to tell me that, he's my son and I know him better than you!" I frowned (not on purpose or in an intentionally confrontational way - I was hurt and taken aback) but didn't reply. She said, "You needn't frown like that! Of course I know him better! I've known him since he was a baby!" DH at this point tried to stick up for me, but he's not great with confrontation and she just changed the subject and talked over him until he backed down.

Those are the examples that first come to mind but there have been many, many others.

I realised how much it was bothering me today when DS (who is now nearly 4) told me today that he 'loves nanna more and wants to live with her forever'. I realise that whilst he does love his nanna, he is probably in this case confusing love with the fact that he enjoys staying over there and having sugary snacks aplenty and unlimited CBeebies. But it felt like a punch in the gut. The thought of him possibly saying this TO her fills me with absolute dread because I know I wouldn't hear the end of it (he once told her he liked her cottage pie more than mine and she absolutely crowed over it). If he had said that he loved, for example, my (lovely) grandma more than me, I wouldn't have cared - would perhaps even have been pleased that he felt so close to her. But I have felt a sort of angry bitterness all day and I think I am starting to dislike MIL perhaps disproportionately.

Those of you with terrible relationships with your MILs (or anyone comparable) - how do you deal with it? She is a fab nanna to DS and I appreciate that and am pleased for him that he has this relationship. But I still can't stand her.

Massive OP, sorry.

Attila, you said "[p]arents do argue in front of children but in many cases the parents apologise and make up afterwards. The argument does not drag out or on for days and is soon forgotten.".

Do most parents apologise in front of the kids? Do they sit the kids down and explain what the arguments were about? As for arguments not dragging on for days and is soon forgotten; I am not sure that is typically the case (at least not from my experience or even reading the various dilemmas posted on Mumsnet).

One thing is clear, this little boy knows his grandmother loves him and that is what drags on for days in his head.

Anyway, we are starting to go round in circles here. I have made my comments, which I stand by, fulling acknowledging that the OP knows the situation best and understands the relationship between her son and his grandmother. You are hellbent on convincing the OP that she has it wrong that really the MIL is a bad grandmother. You sound very similar to that MIL. I think the OP would be in a helluva lot of trouble if she was having this discussion face-to-face with you. I can imagine you giving the OP a good talking to - why she is wrong to think anything good about this woman's grand parenting skills and probably demand that she stops access immediately. You give no weight at all to the fact that she thinks her MIL is proving a great help to her at the moment and that she thinks they are good grandparents that he son loves.

I really have nothing else to add to this other than to once again wish the Bigbluecat the best of luck with this.

I am not a regular contributor to Mumsnet and with this, I am struck by how distracting and time consuming it is.

So Attila, over to you

They seem to be positioning themselves as lovely to him, horrible to you- but that's horrible for him. In my house, the IL's and my own parents have to be nice to everyone to be included, you just cannot have nastiness to one member of the family and niceness elsewhere.

YES!! Totally agree with this. You don't have to like everyone in your family, but you DO have to behave with basic civility. To my mind that's a given in a healthy family set-up.

The trouble is, moRaw, that the MIL is competing with the OP eg

I realise that whilst he does love his nanna, he is probably in this case confusing love with the fact that he enjoys staying over there and having sugary snacks aplenty and unlimited CBeebies. But it felt like a punch in the gut. The thought of him possibly saying this TO her fills me with absolute dread because I know I wouldn't hear the end of it (he once told her he liked her cottage pie more than mine and she absolutely crowed over it).

MIL came in and tried to pull DS out of my arms saying "I'll get the baby to sleep." I held onto him and said, politely, "Oh, no thank you, I'll do it." She kept pulling and said, "No, I'll take him, I'll be able to do it quicker.

.."he's my son and I know him better than you!"

and the OP says these are just a couple of many many incidents

Now the OP may have a healthy relationship with the MIL if she can put down boundaries. However, healthy and pleasant are two different things and dealing with someone who screams and shouts and tantrums is exceptionally unpleasant.

I find it hard - no, impossible - to believe that someone who is so absolutely grabby about the baby and so unpleasant to the parents in front of the child is a good grandparent. It also sounds like the MIL is buying the affection of the boy with sweets and all the usual forbidden things. The combination of the four things, the grabbiness, the extremely bad temper and the probably bribery of the grandson, plus the competition, is a bad one.

Thenapoleonofcrime, you seem to be mixing up relationship between MIL and OP with relationship between grandparent and grandson. If your ex ranted at you, yes it is perfectly reasonable to restrict communication to emails. Does that then mean no access to child? Why bring the relationship between the child and the other person into a disagreement between divorced parents or clashing parent and MIL?

Moraw, I have been watching this thread with interest as I have a similar MIL (tricky person, who is estranged from her daughter and step-son).

I think you may be a bit idealistic about all of this, and my bet is that you are probably a very nice person who has not experienced a situation like this. Yes it would be lovely if everyone got on, but even with the best will in the world, life isn't always like that.

MoRaw I know where you are coming from, in fact, when I posted on here about my MIL (contributing to a thread, not my own topic) I was told it was abusive to allow my grandchildren to continue contact with a nasty MIL. I don't believe this is the case at all for us though, I think keeping contact, but with basic rules of politeness and respect, and with us around all the time has worked just fine and the children genuinely love the IL's and get a lot out of time with them. I wouldn't leave my child with someone who had just ranted, swore and mimicked me though.

Thenapoleon is not mixing up different relationships, she's pointing out that families aren't just individuals but need to be able to operate, if not as a harmonious whole, then at least as a minimally civilised one.

You can't be a great GP while being vilely rude & abusive to your GC's parent. The relationships aren't totally separate, they're completely interwoven! If you love & cherish your GC, why - just why - would you find it so impossible to speak to his mother without ranting, raging, swearing & abuse?

Because children are easily influenced MoRaw and because all sorts of things can be said to drip slow poison in a child's ear. Perhaps not even intentionally - though when someone rants and raves to the parents in front of the child, its hard to believe they are nice and neutral when the parents' backs are turned.

if there is contact with the MIL only when the parents are around, then good behaviour can be ensured.

Actually the MIL sounds more like a badly behaved 8 year old than an adult herself!

MoRaw of course my husband would have contact with his children. But would I allow him to swear, rant at me and make fun of me down the phone to get access? No, he could go to a contact centre and communicate with my by email. What would be the point of leaving an abusive partner if you allowed them to continue to abuse them?

The relationship with the grandparents is not separate, for me, it's part of a relationship with our whole family. If you are nasty to one of us, that's a problem for all of us.

Meerka my MIL is exactly like a small child, having paddies and tantrums in public places, to get what she wants. I've never seen anything like it in a grown woman. My 8 year old is actually better behaved and more emotionally mature than her. I had no idea grown adults were allowed to behave like this. Interestingly, she obviously didn't behave quite so badly at work as she had a very high powered position for many years. She only did it with my husband because he was a little boy- we don't allow that bad behaviour around our own children for obvious reasons! My husband puts up with her rantings when he sees her on his own or she phones as this is his choice and he knows he can go no contact if he chooses.

incredible and scary how some people behave isnt it

When it comes down to it, there seem to be two possibilities with regards to OP's MIL.

1. She can control her behaviour if she has to, but she acts in an abusive way because she thinks she can get away with it; or because it's what she's always done. She doesn't think she has to treat DIL with respect, so she doesn't.

In that case, it would be a really positive thing for OP & DH to send out a very strong message that this behaviour just won't be tolerated in their family. That they are the parents, & if - for instance - they need to make a change to an arrangement, they don't expect to have swearing & rudeness down the 'phone as a result. Basic rules of courtesy WILL be observed, or they won't be choosing to spend time in her company.

Maybe MIL will shape up if she sees they mean business. Maybe she will turn out to be a great GP who can behave like a civilised human being towards everyone in the family. As I said above, if she's really a great GP, why would she not curb her rudeness for the sake of her GS?

1. MIL can't control her behaviour. She has anger management problems at best / some sort of personality disorder at worst. If she feels challenged she genuinely can't stop herself from being abusive / swearing & shouting. In that case, her relationship with her GS is inevitably going to have to be limited / supervised anyway, because he needs protecting from that sort of behaviour.

I don't know which is true, but I can't see any good argument for allowing the status quo of prolonged unsupervised contact with GS, in tandem with outrageous rudeness & verbal abuse towards OP, to continue.

"...You may well be right that MIL could be a great GP - but she's not being one ATM because showing basic respect to a GC's parents is part of being a great GP..."

LoonvanBoon is spot on with this.

seoladair, thanks. I think I am a nice person too. Most people think so though at the same time I usually hear "I wouldn't mess with you". So I guess, one can be nice and still be a two-edged sword. To be fair, I have a quick and vengeful temper. As such, I am conscious about pausing before acting. I have found that it yields much better outcomes (at least for me). I also learn that sometimes in the short term, fighting fire with fire may work but is disastrous for all concerned in the long-run.

I am not idealistic about this at all. I have three brothers and two sisters. My parents are in-laws, I have in-laws and also had "funny" maternal grandmother. Mind you, my mother's father was a very nice person.

I have seen enough and have seen others experience all sorts.

Anyway, enough sharing about me.

Thenapoleonofcrime, your experience could very well be similar to the OP.

My position has always been and remains that the OP is handling the situation really well and should continue being the wise adult in all of this. She should play the long-term game and avoid shout outs or losing her cool and falling into her MIL's trap. Moreover, insofar as OP thinks that the MIL is a good grandmother, we should respect her judgment here. She has said on a number of occasions that the grandparents are good to her son and are a good source of help/babysitting. This is her overall analysis of the situation despite the horribleness of her MIL. Who are we to discount that and insist that she changes her opinion to "bad grandmother" and that she must take steps to deny total access? If disagreeing with this makes me too nice a person and idealistic, then so be it.

OP has made what seems a sound decision to me to set firmer boundaries including restricting unsupervised visits. Why are people hellbent on her going all out to cut the relationship between grandson and grandparents?

Basic civility between family members is a must otherwise it all breaks down over time. OP has really been reasonable here to MIL (perhaps overtly so given MILs behaviours ) but her MIL has not reciprocated at all in kind.

The facts also here are that two of MILs children have gone no contact and the relationship that OPs DH has with her is pretty much non existent. That does not happen overnight; this has been going on really for many years. Dysfunctional crap does filter down the generations.

One job amongst many that a parent must do is to protect the child from malign influences. Unfortunately not all grandparents are nice, I only wish they were but its not OPs fault that her MIL acts as she does. OP has not made MIL this way.

This whole sad situation is entirely of this MILs making; she has started all the ructions by her own behaviours.

I agree the phone call is not a good idea - new plan is that during his next phone call DH will bring up MIL's rudeness towards me and say it wasn't acceptable, but will not mention sleepovers. Sleepovers will be avoided as per SDTG's suggestion and the emphasis will be put on them coming to see us (which they won't like but oh well).

My main problem now is how to handle the situation when MIL is rude to others in front of DS. I doubt MIL is ever going to change - not once has she ever apologised or even acknowledged fault. So my plan isn't to try and alter MIL's behaviour so much as make it clear to DS that it is unacceptable (and if they always see DS at our house then I should almost always be around).

Perhaps every time MIL says something rude, I could say "It would have been nice if you could have expressed that more politely, MIL" or "It would be nice if you would talk less aggressively, MIL" or something similar? The broken-record advice seems apt here I think? So far DH and I have been having a quiet word with DS after every time she says something nasty to FIL or me, making sure he knows "nana shouldn't really have used those words, shouted like that, etc.", but I feel that saying it to MIL may be a better idea...

But then the problem with that is that she never actually agrees that she's talking rudely/aggressively - she just tries to argue that she's not, which makes the situation even worse.

Fwiw, I think a lot of the ways in which she undermines me are not conscious. For example, a while ago she complained to me that DH never called her 'mum' or 'mummy' (and it's true - he never does or did. For a while he referred to her by her first name and now he doesn't really refer to her by anything.) This irritated me massively, because she has a big habit of referring to me by my first name to my DS - e.g. (and let's say my name is Sarah) she would say things to DS like, "Dinner's ready - go and tell your daddy and Sarah." She did this so much the my DS started calling me Sarah when round her house. Surely nobody could have the audacity to consciously refer to me by my first name, to the extent that my son does it, and then bemoan the fact that her own son did exactly the same thing?! (Actually, now I've typed it up I'm not so sure).

I think I just need to grow a really, really thick skin.

OP can and should certainly try and set higher boundaries because those to date have been set too low. Its also not just the OP who needs to do this; there has to be a united front present by both OP and her H to the MIL.

The potential problem here is that boundaries could well be ignored by this MIL whilst an emotionally healthy parent would respect these anyway.

I stand by my assertion that she is not a nice nan because she behaves appallingly still to the OP and also is not above using her child, her most precious resource, to undermine the OPs opinions.

I think myself you need to show your son that her behaviour isnt acceptable as well as tell him. If he sees her getting away with it then he might store that in the back of his brain. He certainly won't forget that adults are allowed to scream, shout and be rude too.

Would it work to say "it would be nice if you would talk less aggressively MIL" then follow it up by "I think that you were being aggressive" when she argues. And then ask her to leave. Yes, you'll get passoinate rage. But this is the whole point, you're trying to show your son that bad behaviour has consequences for everyone.

And I dont think you should have to put up with terrible behaviour towards you at any time.

"Perhaps every time MIL says something rude, I could say "It would have been nice if you could have expressed that more politely, MIL" or "It would be nice if you would talk less aggressively, MIL" or something similar? The broken-record advice seems apt here I think? So far DH and I have been having a quiet word with DS after every time she says something nasty to FIL or me, making sure he knows "nana shouldn't really have used those words, shouted like that, etc.", but I feel that saying it to MIL may be a better idea...

But then the problem with that is that she never actually agrees that she's talking rudely/aggressively - she just tries to argue that she's not, which makes the situation even worse".

Exactly and all this is very wearing and when you look back on this a few years later you will be in a very similar situation with her to what you are now.

She will not change, you can only ultimately change how you react to her. Did not think she had ever apologised either, such people actually never do because they do not think they are doing anything wrong in the first instance.

Have you asked your DH why he never called his own mother Mum or Mummy as a child?. Notice also that she complained to you about this and not him. Now why is that?.

A healthy relationship is reciprocal; it should be give and take, but not in the sense that you’re always giving and they’re always taking.

The calling you by your first name is odd. Sorry but she does sound like she's tying to drive a wedge between you and your little boy. Don't back down on the overnights.

I'm sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread and someone's no doubt said this, but he was coached to say that he loves Nana more and wants to live with her forever. He doesn't even understand what that means, and did not think it up himself. If you really packed his little bag and took him over to Nana's forever, he'd be utterly devastated and traumatised. She's been putting it to him, over and over, that he loves her more than you.

You should cut contact. She is very bad news and will do your son no good.

How about this. Next time you are in her company, tell her if she screams or acts aggressively to anyone, you will leave.

This is a very dangerous woman.

I speak from bitter experience when I say it will gradually escalate unless you and your DH put a stop to it now. Right now she needs a very long period of being completely ignored. If necessary, your DH can call or send a text along the lines of "Your behaviour was atrocious and unacceptable. We want absolutely no contact with you or FIL for 6 weeks. Any attempt at contacting us will reset the clock. We will call you when we are ready."

Follow through. No exceptions. You can expect ranting voice messages, multiple daily phone calls (ignore them all), visits/calls from FIL, and if you're really lucky you'll get a screaming midnight lawn tantrum. Do nothing, say nothing, except perhaps to call the police if necessary. Reset the clock and let her begin her 6 weeks on the Naughty Mat again.

After a few rounds of this, you may be able to have a tentative relationship with her. Never EVER expect her to feel any true empathy or love toward you or your family. Even your son is coming to an age where his own independent thoughts, opinions, and feelings make him less a part of her and more something to be manipulated, controlled, and abused.

You may find she will sue for custody of your child, or at least fabricate stories to Social Services.

I only say all of this so you truly understand the kind of person you are dealing with. She just cannot experience love the same way you and I experience it. It's not in her, no matter how warm, generous, funny, kind, and sweet she sometimes seems. Having a relationship with her is like having a relationship with a hungry shark. Never turn your back unless you're walking away for good.

My mum is your MIL. She doesn't know which country I live in, that she has another grandchild, or even if I'm alive or dead. That was, sadly, the only way it could be. There's a bloody good reason all those other people cut her off.