Have a really bad relationship with MIL- could do with some feedback.

[bigbluecat]

I don't really know what I want from this post other than just to be able to talk (or rather type) it through, and to get a bit of advice on how to deal with this - let me know if I'm being unfair and to what extent, and if I'm not, tell me how to just smile and nod because I find it really hard...

I started a relationship with DH when we were both teenagers - we've been together for 7 years now. Neither of us were in great mental health back then and our relationship was awfully dysfunctional for a long time - he was quite emotionally abusive to me for years.

DH and I are ok now, but I bring up the past abuse because I feel that on some level I may blame MIL for causing it (she was not a very 'involved' mother and was/still is emotionally abusive towards FIL) and not helping me (I tried to tell her how DH was towards me at one point and it was like she was literally unable to comprehend what I was saying). I realise this may be unfair.

Things didn't start getting bad between me and MIL until I had DC1. She flat out told me that she was, in her words, "the matriarch of the family", and became very controlling and competitive with me.

An example: once, when DS was a baby, we were staying over the PILs' house and the train journey and mucked up his sleeping. I was trying to rock him to sleep and he was whingeing quite loudly. MIL came in and tried to pull DS out of my arms saying "I'll get the baby to sleep." I held onto him and said, politely, "Oh, no thank you, I'll do it." She kept pulling and said, "No, I'll take him, I'll be able to do it quicker." When I repeated that I'd do it (DS barely knew her a that point and was more comfortable with me) she flew into a rage and started swearing and shouting at me.

Another example: On DS's third birthday, PILs came over and we were sitting in the garden as DC unwrapped presents. DS handed DH a present to assemble. MIL said, "You'd better read the instructions first." I laughed and said, "Oh, DH never reads instructions!" (A fairly innocuous/jokey comment, I thought?) MIL snaps back, "Well you don't have to tell me that, he's my son and I know him better than you!" I frowned (not on purpose or in an intentionally confrontational way - I was hurt and taken aback) but didn't reply. She said, "You needn't frown like that! Of course I know him better! I've known him since he was a baby!" DH at this point tried to stick up for me, but he's not great with confrontation and she just changed the subject and talked over him until he backed down.

Those are the examples that first come to mind but there have been many, many others.

I realised how much it was bothering me today when DS (who is now nearly 4) told me today that he 'loves nanna more and wants to live with her forever'. I realise that whilst he does love his nanna, he is probably in this case confusing love with the fact that he enjoys staying over there and having sugary snacks aplenty and unlimited CBeebies. But it felt like a punch in the gut. The thought of him possibly saying this TO her fills me with absolute dread because I know I wouldn't hear the end of it (he once told her he liked her cottage pie more than mine and she absolutely crowed over it). If he had said that he loved, for example, my (lovely) grandma more than me, I wouldn't have cared - would perhaps even have been pleased that he felt so close to her. But I have felt a sort of angry bitterness all day and I think I am starting to dislike MIL perhaps disproportionately.

Those of you with terrible relationships with your MILs (or anyone comparable) - how do you deal with it? She is a fab nanna to DS and I appreciate that and am pleased for him that he has this relationship. But I still can't stand her.

Massive OP, sorry.

areyoumymother I do not have avoidance issues. Far from it. However, I have learned from my mistakes and try to avoid similar mistakes. Saying that, sometimes it can be good to avoid/ignore somethings. Getting worked up about all sorts of things is a waste of time.

My relationship with my MIL is fine because I choose how I respond to any perceived slights. Whether it is a relationship with a MIL or husband or friend or colleague, letting emotions get the better of you, will never get you anywhere. Yes, it will only amount to a pyrrhic victory short-term (hmmm that silly word). My experience? Seeing lots of friends and their MILs waste time fighting and getting nowhere. In fact things only get worse and everyone else around them gets affected. Perhaps my experience counts for nothing. I am not selling it. Just adding my two pence like everyone else and I am not asking or expecting the OP to place any more weight on my comments than anyone else's.

In any case, each to his own. If standing up to the MIL means harsh words, throwing insults, and being all out confrontational, then I wouldn't be positive about the outcome. If standing up means being clear about what you want, putting your head above all the emotions and then acting in your best interest, then we are in agreement. I have certainly not said the OP should not "feel" these emotions.

Anyway OP, you seem to be doing the right thing. Definitely think continuing to be assertive and not getting into a shout-out is the best way forward. To some it may not seem like it is working but it most likely is. Eventually, your MIL will realise she is in her mess all by herself.

I was wondering if your son spent time alone with your MIL - because his comments do sound as if she's been putting ideas into his head.

Definitely DON'T let him stay there again without you. If she asks why - you have no obligation to go into any detail, though actually I'd be inclined to say "it's obvious that you dislike me intensely, so I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of my son staying with you without me. I have no idea what you might be saying about me and don't want you saying anything that might upset him. I'd rather we all visit together thanks."

He's only little, there's no need for sleepovers without you and your DH even if your relationship was a good one. But given the way you describe her, I think letting your son stay there without you is very unwise to put it mildly.

was your ds annoyed with you when he said this?

No He realised afterwards I hadn't liked him saying it and then tried to console me by saying, "Actually I love you both the same, I can't choose." I know he's only 4 but for some reason I'm feeling even worse about this having woken up this morning...

If she suggests him sleeping over, just make an excuse that you are off out early the next morning or doing something the next day that means you need him at home. If you keep doing that, she'll eventually realise and stop asking.

Mine has never suggested having them stay - she knew it was a non starter. She even asks if she can call in now, whereas she just used to turn up and expect me to stop what we were doing to accommodate her!

Another one here who sounds like he was coached to say what he said.

MIL: Do you love Nanna?
DS: Yes
MIL: Don't you wish you could stay here forever and ever?

Good luck OP. Watch your back and build on your relationship with your DH and DS.

He doesn't have to choose though. Its not a competition. She does sound as though she wants to recreate being a mother to a small child again.

My mil pushed me away from my 3 day old baby I was changing and took over. She refused to apologise and said she knew best. She did this in front of my dh and her dh.

She always knows best and tries to get the dc to call her mamma. I stop it every single single time and say " no, its granny" with a smile.

She is saying all sorts of stuff to him and its confusing him. It would be better if he didn't stay overnight or have unsupervised care until he is a bit older and less impressionable.

If someone treats you badly, as your mil does with you, I fail to see why you have to treat her nicely so not to upset her. She doesn't care too much about upsetting you does she? Anyway, you hold the cards:)

Ok OP you need to play the long game. She doesn't know that he has said that. But if she has been coaching him, she will be waiting for the shit to hit the fan. Do not let her (or your husband) know what your son actually said, just start being busy and stop the sleepovers now. In fact, stop all unsupervised contact.

If your husband has a non-relationship with her, do not force this relationship yourself. Keep what he said under your hat. You can bet one day in a screaming match, she will scream 'let's ask him, who he wants to live with shall we?'...this is part of her long game...do not let her win it!

"I don't think I can cut all contact - I agree that it wouldn't be a great idea to just destroy the relationship with them entirely - but after reading these responses I have reconsidered allowing him to go for sleep-overs with MIL and have decided that he will only be seeing the PILs at our house where we can keep an eye on things. MIL won't like this as she has been very keen on DS spending time with her and FIL at their house without DH and me around. Any ideas what I can say if they ask why he's not sleeping over any more?

DH is not brilliant at responding in my defence in the moment, but after the last time she yelled at me she stormed out and sent a long, bitchy text about me to DH, and he replied and said all the right things (she ignored all his points, hurled one last insult at us and then declared the discussion closed) so I feel she knows we are on the same side".

Her behaviours go well beyond bullying as well. Your MIL has caused all of this to happen. She has done parenting (badly it seems to her son) and now its your turn. Both of you need to present a united front with regards to his mother. This is really about power and control and your MIL has and is not above using your child, your most precious resource, to get back at the two of you. If you visit them at their house, the verbal mixed messages and emotional damage to your child will be simply done in front of your eyes; you simply won't be able to stop that happening.

What you have tried to date has also not worked, doing more of the same will not work either. Your Hs as well as your own boundaries here re his mother have to be completely reassessed and raised a lot higher than they currently are. However, your H is also part of the problem here as well as she because of his inbuilt conditioning towards her; he is really afraid of her.

Why do you think you cannot cut all contact given your second paragraph which was against both of you?. You would not tolerate any of this from a friend, his mother is no different. It is NOT your fault she is so disordered and you did not make her that way, she may well have some sort of personality disorder. BTW what if anything do you know about her own childhood?. She is NOT a good nanna/grandparent and never will be. Your son was coached and influenced to say the things he did; she did that via him to hurt you.

It is of no surprise to me at all that your H's relationship with his mother is pretty much non existent. Did you ever expect otherwise?. Its hard for you as well because like many, you come from a birth family where this type of familial dysfunction is completely unknown and therefore outside your own experience. Its hard to comprehend at all. Note too that your MIL has not apologised for her actions, let alone take responsibility for them.

Excellent and well considered post Moraw.

Attila - I suppose there are a few reasons I feel I can't cut contact, as much of a relief as it would be not to deal with her:

• She has two other DC who are much older than my DH - he never lived with them and has barely met them because they have both cut contact with MIL (he doesn't know why, exactly). I feel that if I instigated no contact then I would be pretty much destroying her life and I don't really want that on my shoulders.

• I feel that her issues lie in part with the fact that she has low social/emotional intelligence and that as someone with higher levels of both I should be more tolerant and take a 'rise above it' attitude. I really think that she does not understand quite how unacceptable her behaviour is. She has been like it for years and years and it is her normal.

• My son really loves her and FIL and I would prefer to maintain the relationship, but with much tighter boundaries, if possible.

I do agree with most of your points though, and if my new plan to only let them see DS supervised does not work out then I will reconsider.

Agree with sandgrown. Considered, eloquent and excellent advice. One does not always need to fight fire with fire to get the best outcome (accepting it might feel better in the short term).

bigblue it's very kind of you to not want to destroy her last family.

But Not at the expense of your own. Her life is her responsibility. I'm sure this doesn't need saying, but there must have been damn good reason for -both- older children to cut contact with her. Given her behaviour you can see why!

I hope keeping tighter boundaries works and it's good to hear that if necessary you will reconsider about contact at all. Please watch out for snide comments such as "mummy doesn't do this quite right does she?" or "if you lived with granny she'd let you have XXX" etc. one comment here and there is nothing but they can sometimes build up into a pretty poisonous sum. Good luck!

Oh and re. MIL's childhood, I know very little. DH has never known any grandparents of his own. She has an older sister who is lovely and seems very 'normal', for whatever that's worth.

Thanks again everyone for your comments Am finding this all very helpful.

bigbluecat,

re your comments in quote marks:-

"She has two other DC who are much older than my DH - he never lived with them and has barely met them because they have both cut contact with MIL (he doesn't know why, exactly). I feel that if I instigated no contact then I would be pretty much destroying her life and I don't really want that on my shoulders"

Your second sentence here is characteristic of people who have come from "emotionally healthy and non dysfunctional" families. You want still to be nice and reasonable which is great because you are a nice and reasonable person. Your MIL is not (and for that matter your FIL is also playing a role in this here too). The very fact that two of her own children have cut contact with their mother is very telling indeed. NC is never done without much soul searching and heartache beforehand. You would not be "destroying" her life at all if you were to cut contact with her, a need to protect your own family unit from malign influences completely trumps any innate or perceived need of yours not to "destroy" her life.

"I feel that her issues lie in part with the fact that she has low social/emotional intelligence and that as someone with higher levels of both I should be more tolerant and take a 'rise above it' attitude. I really think that she does not understand quite how unacceptable her behaviour is. She has been like it for years and years and it is her normal".

She actively enjoys the power and control she has over your son and has coached him to say such things to you. It is her normal indeed, such people do not change. Of course you shouldn't have to rise above it at your expense. Being more tolerant to such people simply does not work.

"My son really loves her and FIL and I would prefer to maintain the relationship, but with much tighter boundaries, if possible".

You must not maintain this relationship at further cost to your own family unit. She is responsible for her own actions here. Your son who is now 4 is receiving very mixed messages from his grandmother and its confusing him and upsetting you.

Great advice already given here. Just to say that I've recently discovered how a MIL relationship can change when a baby arrives. I've always got on great with mine but I gave birth recently and she came to stay when DD was 6 weeks old. She took over to the extent that she admonished me at one point for not doing something correctly, in her opinion. It didn't end well! I still like her but I think some women struggle to see someone else take over the mother mantel. I'm wondering as well if it might be difficulty coming to terms with growing older.

I suspect the same sarah ... and with some older women who've done their child-rearing, they have experience in it (even if it's 30 years out of date!) and see a new mum and want to pass it on. Which gets really annoying when it's not kept in check!

This MIL is dangerous. She is trying every trick in the book to undermine you and control your family. Her past history tells of her own failure to parent well. Now is the time to be on full alert and deal with this nasty behaviour so nothing escalates.

She is succeeding already in fracturing your family and bringing misery to your life, which probably pleases her greatly.

This is one seriously dysfunctional human being. Do not enable her to cause more unhappiness and mayhem, and to poison your son any more.

Enable her to get help if you must, otherwise put your family first and do not tolerate her behaviour. I agree with all advice given on here. Lots of us have had real problems in our childhoods/past yet do not seek to cause rifts in families and play power/control games with innocent children.

I am a MIL with 3 grandsons and would never ever do or say anything to undermine the relationship between parent/child or do anything but to add to the family's happiness and wellbeing.

I had an aunt who could be a horror, especially to her children's spouses (she had 7 children). My mum has been approached by several (if not all) of my aunt's dils, asking mum how best to approach their mil. None of them went nc, though I have no idea whether this was due to my mum's advice, and they all get on pretty well with occasional blips of course, but that's unavoidable I think.

How well do you get on with your mil's sister? Could you sidle up to her and ask for a bit of help?

sarah that really rings true here too. MIL is always telling me how to do things with my son. I have been told off/snapped at for not rubbing his head when he hit it (was comforting him, just not with rubbing!); for not focussing on his toes enough when giving him a foot massage to get rid of pins and needles; for making sure there were no big air bubbles in his bottles when I was liquid-sterilising them when he was a baby (actually, she insisted on sterilising them herself and left massive air bubbles and then yelled at me and DH every time we tried to get rid of them - we ended up having to sneak into the kitchen when she wasn't looking...) the list goes on. Whenever my ds is in a mood or crying she always loudly talks over me to him because she thinks she can handle it better; I always ask her politely to let me deal with it, please, and she will act all offended and be like, "I was only trying to help". Aaargh.

Sorry, that turned into a rant! I hope your relationship with your MIL progresses better than mine has.

Jux that's an interesting idea. I don't see her too often, but get on ok with her when I do. Might be a possibility.

someone came up with a nice phrase a while back about help...... "it's being unhelpfully helpful!"

Probably cause a minor skirmish in this war, but might it be effective to say that? :D Do think you're incredibly patient not to just snap back "then be actually helpful and do what's genuinely needed!"

Seriously, when you have people who love being professionally offended, you're on a complete looser. :(

Ok, something I didn't mention before was that DS is actually at a sleepover with PILs right now (which is why him telling me he loved nana more came up in the first place) - he left yesterday afternoon and is coming back tomorrow. He was supposed to be picked up by DH tomorrow evening, but talking things through on this thread made me want to cut it a bit shorter and I asked DH to text PILs this morning to say that I was going to be picking him up tomorrow morning instead.

MIL has just rung me up and raged at me over this. It was awful. Endless ranting and hurling of insults; at one point when I managed to get a word in edgeways she responded by mimicking me, like a ten year old; she said I "needed to get out more". She made up a load of lies about bad things I'd allegedly done in the past and tried to use them against me as if I'd just believe her - I don't really understand this, it was actually like she thought they were true?! I'm afraid I didn't keep as much composure as I would have liked - I kept my voice measured and certainly didn't resort to mocking her or anything, but I did tell her I thought she was jealous of me, that I thought she could be very rude, and that I thought she "struggled sometimes to have polite conversation". I obviously think all those things are true but I wish I'd just called an end to the conversation rather than engaging.

There's no way she's having DS for any more sleepovers - I hate that he's there right now and she's probably telling him all sorts of lies.

oh god, yes. bigblue .. any chance of getting your husband to go and get him now? Because she might really going to ramp things up now and she might even refuse to give him back tomorrow morning.

Your husband has way more chance of dealing with it if that happens and frnakly, your MIL is going to be a lot lot better with him than you. As long as she doesnt try to poison him against you. Actually, best might be to go together.

Your son's night might be disturbed tonight but in the long run that's nothing if there's a risk of a shitstorm that'll come your way if you or your DH try to pick him up alone.

Her own children going nc with her should really tell you something. How likely will it be that you are all the ones with the problem and not her?

DS is in bed now apparently - I want to minimise the amount of 'drama' he is exposed to so whilst I'd love for us to just go get him now I am going to wait. Absolutely dreading the pick up; it will be FIL meeting me at the station, and for some reason, despite the fact that MIL is awful to him, he always takes her 'side'.

I don't think we will have problems with the handover (other than FIL probably being frosty with me) - the problems will most likely arise when DH phones them once DS is home and tells MIL that he doesn't agree with the way she spoke to me and that DS won't be staying over hers any more, which is what DH and I have agreed will be our course of action.

I really hate all this and have a horrible sick feeling in my stomach. I know MIL was very rude to me but I really wish I'd handled it better and just ignored rather than engaging. Previously when we've seen each other after a dispute we've just acted like it didn't happen, but I don't think there's any going back after this one - our relationship is now full-on destroyed.

You did fine. You stood up for yourself.

There will be more of that, and no, she won't like it.

Well boo hoo, she's not supposed to.

Go and get your son tomorrow and that'll be it.

There have been posters who have had their dc 'stolen' from them by mothers or MILS, so don't make the mistake oof thinking that won't possibly happen to you.

Given her performance tonight, i'd say that it's exactly what she's going for.