Have a really bad relationship with MIL- could do with some feedback.

[bigbluecat]

I don't really know what I want from this post other than just to be able to talk (or rather type) it through, and to get a bit of advice on how to deal with this - let me know if I'm being unfair and to what extent, and if I'm not, tell me how to just smile and nod because I find it really hard...

I started a relationship with DH when we were both teenagers - we've been together for 7 years now. Neither of us were in great mental health back then and our relationship was awfully dysfunctional for a long time - he was quite emotionally abusive to me for years.

DH and I are ok now, but I bring up the past abuse because I feel that on some level I may blame MIL for causing it (she was not a very 'involved' mother and was/still is emotionally abusive towards FIL) and not helping me (I tried to tell her how DH was towards me at one point and it was like she was literally unable to comprehend what I was saying). I realise this may be unfair.

Things didn't start getting bad between me and MIL until I had DC1. She flat out told me that she was, in her words, "the matriarch of the family", and became very controlling and competitive with me.

An example: once, when DS was a baby, we were staying over the PILs' house and the train journey and mucked up his sleeping. I was trying to rock him to sleep and he was whingeing quite loudly. MIL came in and tried to pull DS out of my arms saying "I'll get the baby to sleep." I held onto him and said, politely, "Oh, no thank you, I'll do it." She kept pulling and said, "No, I'll take him, I'll be able to do it quicker." When I repeated that I'd do it (DS barely knew her a that point and was more comfortable with me) she flew into a rage and started swearing and shouting at me.

Another example: On DS's third birthday, PILs came over and we were sitting in the garden as DC unwrapped presents. DS handed DH a present to assemble. MIL said, "You'd better read the instructions first." I laughed and said, "Oh, DH never reads instructions!" (A fairly innocuous/jokey comment, I thought?) MIL snaps back, "Well you don't have to tell me that, he's my son and I know him better than you!" I frowned (not on purpose or in an intentionally confrontational way - I was hurt and taken aback) but didn't reply. She said, "You needn't frown like that! Of course I know him better! I've known him since he was a baby!" DH at this point tried to stick up for me, but he's not great with confrontation and she just changed the subject and talked over him until he backed down.

Those are the examples that first come to mind but there have been many, many others.

I realised how much it was bothering me today when DS (who is now nearly 4) told me today that he 'loves nanna more and wants to live with her forever'. I realise that whilst he does love his nanna, he is probably in this case confusing love with the fact that he enjoys staying over there and having sugary snacks aplenty and unlimited CBeebies. But it felt like a punch in the gut. The thought of him possibly saying this TO her fills me with absolute dread because I know I wouldn't hear the end of it (he once told her he liked her cottage pie more than mine and she absolutely crowed over it). If he had said that he loved, for example, my (lovely) grandma more than me, I wouldn't have cared - would perhaps even have been pleased that he felt so close to her. But I have felt a sort of angry bitterness all day and I think I am starting to dislike MIL perhaps disproportionately.

Those of you with terrible relationships with your MILs (or anyone comparable) - how do you deal with it? She is a fab nanna to DS and I appreciate that and am pleased for him that he has this relationship. But I still can't stand her.

Massive OP, sorry.

Hi everyone, sorry it's taken me a while to get back on here, I decided just to try and forget about it for a bit yesterday as it was getting me down. The pick up went ok, FIL was surprisingly fine with me so either MIL didn't tell him about the phone call or he's wisely decided to stay uninvolved! DS seems to have had an amazing time and cried on the train because he wanted to stay for 'just one more night'. I have been feeling really low about it all and have asked DH not to phone MIL for a little while because I don't want another row.

oh good, very glad the pickup went well. relief!

i do think that it woudl be a good idea to tell them now and get it out of the way. Yes there will be a storm. But with luck, the water will be calm afterwards and you will probably feel so much relief. Perhaps tinged with a few negative emotoins, but overall, you wont have to face this again .. and your DS will be safer from her.

Very glad you got DS home without further issues to deal with. Be a little bit careful with the 'had an amazing time' and 'just one more night'; I would wonder what has been said that could happen if he could stay a little longer, or how much 'cueing' has been done iyswim.

It's sounds rather like the dreaded parent at nursery who stands for ages going 'I'm going now..... I'm leaving... I'm off to work now... see you later... ' until their happily playing child is in floods of tears and has to be prised out of their arms and they can leave feeling 'wanted'.

Bigbluecat, great to hear. Your son had a great time and his grandparents took good care of him. Leave it at that. Don't try to read anything into it. You could imagine all sorts of things that may or may not have been said to him. It is a futile exercise.

It did not sound like your PIL are a danger to your little one so I also wanted to lend support to you allowing your son to continue to have a relationship with his grandparents. All out cutting ties may hurt your in-laws but could equally hurt your son and rob him of a good relationship with them. Neither party should use him to win a fight. The issues are between the adults.

All the best for the future.

BigBlueCat

Would have to disagree with MoRaw here; these people are not good grandparents at all.

Two of MILs own children have cut contact with her and that fact is also very telling. Also your own husband's relationship with her is pretty much non existent.

MIL is already using your child to cause arguments and upset.

If these people cannot have a good relationship with you they will treat your child very similarly and in ways like what is happening now. He is being manipulated. Your MIL is using your child to get back at you; your son was coached to say such things about them and their house.

Neither party should use him to win a fight.

That's right they shouldn't. Unfortunately quite often adults do.

The signs are that this MIL is trying to take the little one over as well as rule the roost with a rod of iron. Supervised contact at best - if the MIL can behave okay towards the OP - seems the only way of going.

And does the OP really want to have to deal with a screaming harpy every time she has to change an arrangement a bit? What sort of example is that for the little one

The difficulty I'm having here is that I think that in how they deal with DS directly, they are genuinely good grandparents. I know a lot of people on here think they've been putting words in his mouth, but tbh I think he does just really, really like seeing them. I have a very young baby and I think that, especially because of that, DS craves the level of one-on-one attention the PILs give him that I'm currently unable to, and in his head that may translate as 'loving them more'. There are a lot of benefits to his relationship with them.

Obviously, though, MIL is absolutely fine with being extremely rude to me and FIL in front of DS, which is not on at all. I suspect too that as DS gets older she will be decreasingly pleasant to him.

Was going to type more but have to pick up DS from nursery! Will be back later. Thanks for all the extra responses I've had.

Bigbluecat - can I suggest your dh doesn't phone his parents to say there will be no more sleepovers - I think neither of you need the shitstorm that will provoke. Instead, just wait until she asks about the next sleepover, and say 'Sorry, that isn't going to work for us' - don't make excuses, or say you are doing something else, because that will just give her a foothold to start arguing with you - 'You can do that any time/why can't you reschedule that/I am sure my dgs would rather come to stay with ME!'

I have seen the 'cracked record' approach advocated here a lot, and I think it could work - just keep,on saying it isn't going to work for you, and change the subject ('How are your piles now DMIL/is FIL enjoying the football?').

Attila, we do not know why the MIL's kids do not speak to her. To extend this to say she is an all out bad person who does not or is incapable of treating her grandson well, is unfair. Some people can be terrible parents but wonderful grandparents. It does sound like this MIL is might be seeing her toddler grandson as chance to make amends. To treat her grandson the way she should have treated her children.

Saying the MIL is using the little boy to cause arguments is also unfair. We have no idea what the MIL has said to the little chap. Neither has the OP said that the MIL has said anything ontowards to him. Some people on here have planted ideas as to what she might be saying to the OP's son. With respect to the OP; there is also the potential for her to use her little boy to cause arguments by imagining what may or may not have been said to him.

All we know is that this little boy likes spending time with his grandparents and that the MIL is overstepping her boundaries with the way she engages with OP. OP has also been clear that she treats him well (even saying she is a good nanna). There has been pressure on here for OP to reconsider and see her MIL as a bad grandmother. I personally think OP's instinct is correct. The grandparents have not harmed him or emotionally abused him. There is an unfounded belief by some that the MIL is poisoning the boy's mind to turn him against his mother or "take the little one over". All because he once said he loved her cooking/her place (can't remember) more.

Also, in my experience and what I have seen, older women nearly ALWAYS think they know better how to take care of a baby. In fact, they think they know better how to do everything than new mothers. They very freely give their "advice" and want to take charge. Not unique to that MIL and it does not mean a take over.

What seems to be a problem relationship between the MIL and OP may unfortunately turn into one where the little boy is the central focus and pawn. This is about the MIL understanding her boundaries with regards to OP as a parent. The boy has two loving parents and two loving grandparents. More than most. The adults should sort out their relationship before they start using him as a weapon against each other.

Just read this bigbluecat "The difficulty I'm having here is that I think that in how they deal with DS directly, they are genuinely good grandparents. I know a lot of people on here think they've been putting words in his mouth, but tbh I think he does just really, really like seeing them."

I think you will come out of this well. You are being fair and reasonable.

Bigbluecat, glad it went well.

I don't think it's necessary for your dh to phone his Ps and tell them "no more unsupervised/sleepovers" etc. Just play it by ear. The broken record for the moment as advocated by SDTG for the moment, as you are genuinely hoping to spend more time with ds over the summer as it's his last before school, and also because she has behaved atrociously and you need to regroup and have a think about it all.

"I suspect too that as DS gets older she will be decreasingly pleasant to him".

Exactly because as your son gets older, he becomes less easy to control and will have opinions of his own. It is very telling indeed that two of her own children are not in contact with her any longer. People generally do not go no contact on a whim or without much thought beforehand.

They are not good grandparents and there is no evidence here really to suggest otherwise. They treat you and your H appallingly and you cannot understand why they would want to do this to you. Its outside your own life experience because you have not come across this before.

You want to be nice and reasonable which is great but these people you're dealing with will never be nice and reasonable in return. Its their way or no way as far as your MIL in particular is concerned and your FIL is more than happy to go along with this because he is also a bystander acting out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Attila, I may be missing something here but Bigbluecat said she thinks the PIL are good grandparents and yet, you who do not know these people are convinced otherwise. What exactly do you know about these two people that leads you to question Bigbluecat's judgment?

You are adamant that they are not good grandparent (especially the MIL) and perhaps you are projecting your own experience onto this situation. The lady may be a horrible MIL but there really has been nothing to suggest she is a bad grandmother. Being a pain-in-the-rear MIL does not automatically make the person a bad grandmother.

It may very well be that as the little chap grows older the grandmother may be less pleasant towards him. However, this is at present not the case. What to do? Are you Attila suggesting that the OP should act now on something that may or may not happen in the future by undermining his relationship with his grandmother? Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy.

Does a good grandparent speak extremely rudely to her grand child's mother in front of the child?

Does a good grandparent speak extremely rudely to her grand child's mother in front of the child?

No.

None of this behaviour would be tolerated at all from a friend, family are no different. This MIL goes well beyond being a PITA; she is actively trying to interfere and influence OPs family life to its overall detriment.

BigBlueCat has no chance of having any sort of healthy relationship with her H's parents so their child will also be put into that firing line as well. The child will be used by MIL to get back at BigBlueCat.

Her Inlaws were not good parents and are heading that same way as grandparents as well. No emotionally healthy person describes themselves openly to the DIL as the "matriarch of the family" and acts in such a controlling manner and competitive manner towards the DIL.

Nanny0gg and SDT, that's like saying a mother or father is a bad parent when they argue in front of their children. So if a father speaks rudely to a mother in front of the kids or vice versa that is enough to label them bad parents and a reason to seek to undermine the relationship with a child?

Of course, I am not saying it is at all acceptable for grown-ups to argue in front of kids but it happens.

When I read OP's post, the things she said the MIL said to her were "rude/angry" but they were not words that one could reasonably say would make a person a bad grandparent. At his age, he should not be burdened with the complexity of adult relationships. His nanna treats him well and that is all his little brain needs to grapple with. He should not be dragged into analysing whether his grandparents are good grandparents because of a strained relationship with another adult (his mum).

If this little boy is made to think his grandmother is a bad person/nanna because she was angry at his mother, then the poor lad may very well start thinking of his own parents as bad people.

Just to be clear; I am not saying it is only the words that count. Of course the expression/aggression/body language matters. However, OP did not indicate that the MIL was threatening. Argumentative yes, but it sounded like (heated) disagreements rather than out of control and dangerous behaviour.

"He should not be dragged into analysing whether his grandparents are good grandparents because of a strained relationship with another adult (his mum)"

The OPs son will soon pick up on the fact that his nana dislikes his mum intensely. MIL is the instigator behind all this and she is also not above putting ideas about her own self into a very impressionable young child's head. Trying to snatch the child away and then shout and swear at said child's mother is totally unacceptable. She's had her turn and from accounts did a rubbish job of parenting her own children. No kind relation and there are many of them out there would behave in such a manner to their DILs even if they disagreed with the parents ways of doing things on occasion.

Parents do argue in front of children but in many cases the parents apologise and make up afterwards. The argument does not drag out or on for days and is soon forgotten. People take responsibility for their actions and apologise. This scenario only becomes damaging when there are constant arguments and no apologies or recognition of responsibility for their actions from either side.

MIL has never apologised nor taken any responsibility for her actions here; I certainly cannot see any evidence of that from the postings that BigBlueCat has herself posted. Such dysfunctional people like her MIL never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

I feel very sorry for the OP because she is really in a bind not of her own making.

To me, family are different from friends (but that may just be me).

Attila, your interpretation of the situation is very interesting. You have reached the conclusion that this MIL is "actively trying to interfere and influence OPs family life to its overall detriment". However, from my reading, the MIL's focus is on the grandson and not the family life of the OP. Perhaps she interferes in the OP's relationship with her son and other aspects of their lives. From the posts, it seems to me the concern is about the relationship with her little boy and a potential fight over his affections.

Reading Bigbluecat's posts, she comes across as a reasonable person so I would hazard a guess that the MIL stands no chance in replacing her in her son's life. I think Bigbluecat can have a healthy relationship with her MIL (from her standpoint). Whether the MIL has a healthy approach to the relationship is the MIL's problem. Similarly, Bigbluecat can work in a way that minimises any impact of her relationship with her MIL on her son's relationship with his grandmother.

By your reckoning, any one who cannot be described as emotionally healthy is a bad person undeserving of relationships with others.

Look, this is similar (though not the same) to parents who are divorced and who need to share custody. Whatever their problems, they should avoid dragging the kids into their arguments. Whether they think one is emotionally unstable or acting rudely at times, these are not reasons to undermine relationships with the other parent.

Hoo, some of you need to hop into the Tardis and go back and meet my Nana.

She was a great Nana but a less than brilliant mum and an horrendous MIL, she never once spoke a civil word to my dad, she very rarely spoke to him directly at all. She would relay messages, 'Do you think your dad would fix that for me?' - whilst he was stood 2 feet away from her.

The nicest thing she ever said to him was after my wedding "I suppose you have done her proud"... at least she was looking at him and speaking directly to him at the time.

She always knew better, would have happily let someone tell Dad he was crap, been rude in any way they wished, she wouldn't have batted an eyelid. But she never tried to turn us against him, or to bribe us to love her more.

She was our Nana, she could spoil us, she was there to give us treats, stay up a little bit too late, etc etc. Of course we wanted to stay a little longer.

THAT is what grandparents are for!

OP, stay grounded on this. So far you are sounding reasonable and doing really well in the face of stupidity and provocation. You'll find a way ot deal with it... we used to play Nana Bingo and compare notes when we got home!

With respect, MoRaw, the OP has described way more than "heated disagreements" in relation to MIL's behaviour.

MIL has ranted, raged, sworn, hurled insults, imitated the OP in a childish voice - & most of the above simply because OP wanted to make minor changes to an arrangement. That was just the most recent example.

You may well be right that MIL could be a great GP - but she's not being one ATM because showing basic respect to a GC's parents is part of being a great GP. It's not just about having fun with your GC.

And yes, I think the same basic principle does apply to parents: not that parents rowing in front of kids automatically makes them bad parents, of course not. But actively treating the other parent with contempt & verbal aggression - as MIL does towards OP - is certainly a parenting failure as well as an abusive relationship style.

I'm not saying OP should cut off all contact right now. But I don't think MIL can be allowed to think that things will continue as they are, in terms of her contact with her GC, unless she shapes up & starts treating her DIL with basic human decency.

No-one, but no-one shouts at me (except my lovely husband and even then I think about leaving him). If she started even raising her voice a teeny tiny bit, I would just put the phone down. I don't tolerate it at work, or at home, I can't bear shouters and funnily enough, my MIL doesn't like me much but she doesn't shout at me and is very polite to my face as she knows that if she is rude or intrusive or nasty (all of which she is to my husband at times) I will simply not see her and she won't see the children.

I come from a really nice family and seeing a very toxic person in action was a real eye opener to me, I had no idea family could behave like this. I found it very upsetting to think how horrible she was to my husband when he was a little boy. I'm sure your DH will have had these screaming tantrums at him so many times, as Hissy said he'll have the FOG for sure.

What has helped me with a very badly behaved MIL is- to let my husband decide if he wants to have contact, at times he hasn't seen them for a time period although he does now have an ongoing relationship with them and prefers it that way, he doesn't hate them although he finds them frustrating. I keep my distance, we see them for a time of our choosing, when it is convenient for us, and parent how we see fit without expecting them to comment. I think you need to draw some boundaries here- don't discuss anything and put the phone down.

I would also worry that although she seems nice- it's easy for a four year old to think that, but an older child will sense the tension or even align themselves with their grandparent/parent. They seem to be positioning themselves as lovely to him, horrible to you- but that's horrible for him. In my house, the IL's and my own parents have to be nice to everyone to be included, you just cannot have nastiness to one member of the family and niceness elsewhere. You are the child's mum, if she hates you and says nasty things- the whole family wouldn't be going there til she apologised or stopped doing it.

And for those saying its similar to two divorced parents, if my ex phoned me up ranting, swearing and mimicking me, then we'd be communicating minimally by email. You don't have to put up with people being exceptionally nasty and shouting at you in life, I'm amazed people think this is ok. A slightly heated conversation perhaps with you own parent is one thing, but this lady isn't related to her, she doesn't have to take this shit and our home wouldn't be welcome to my MIL if she did that to me (how she speaks to my husband is more colourful, he's her child, he can decide to take it, answer back or not).

I don't agree she is a good nanna. The OP has said more than once that her MIL thinks it's ok to shout and swear at her, as well as undermine her. I wouldn't think this is ok in a partner and don't think it's ok in a MIL, especially either the little boy present. The MIL's attitude towards her daughter in law is horrible, and it WILL be noticed by her little boy. Allowing him to stay there is basically saying it's ok to shout and swear at mum, because no-one is stopping it, and him staying with the lady who does it is fine. He is already starting to say he would prefer to be at MIL's. Ok it might be for the sweets, but it's also possible that she's manipulating him given the sort of person she is. She just might be putting ideas into his head that life is better there now mum's got the baby and is always busy. Too busy for him maybe? From your description of her OP I would say it's entirely possible. Personally I wouldn't take the risk with unsupervised contact, even if he does get more 1:1. If she's a lovely nanna and you're wrong, then she can have lovely times with him with you there. If there's a chance she's as horrible about you behind your back as she is to your face, then you've stopped it.