I totally dislike my daughter (long and ranty)

[ohthatsokthen]

DD now 21. Backstory she has been problematic since 13. Started with truancy, smoking etc. Then absconded from school and was found unconscious on the school field with an empty bottle of vodka. We then discovered she was bulimic and self harming. Many trips to the Drs later we were referred to PCAHMS for counselling. There are no known issues in our family, me and her dad still together, he has been a fantastic dad and we have both tried our best to support and encourage her. In her words "you are epic parents and I had a lovely childhood, I don't know why I do these things". Signed off from PCAHMS as deemed "helped". Over the next few years she went to college and got a part time job. She was then sent home from work as she was drunk, this continued and escalated until she was drinking all day and being abusive. I met with her work who offered to help - her words "all teenagers drink", took her to the drs "my mum is imagining it all, I am fine". To cut a long story short, the drinking escalated and she became threatening and violent and I snapped (probably not the best thing to do) and threw her out. We had a number of police visits due to threats and her trying to kick the door in. Police told me I was a victim of dv. She found a room, we paid the rent and deposit for 6 months. She got thrown out from that room because she kicked off and started smashing the place up. At this point I cut contact as she was making me ill with the stress. She moved in with her boyfriend, and his junkie father and moved onto drugs (speed, crack), got raped by her drug dealer. I can't even talk about that. She moved into a nice room, to get away and we paid the deposit. All this time still drinking but miraculously because of her manager she clung on to her job. She was then given notice on her room as the ll was getting married so she went off on a rare one and her threw her out that night. In desperation, the next day I found her a bedsit albeit in a halfway house type place, paid the deposit and the rent. She is still there. 5 months ago she quit drinking, we were so proud of her. I told her that she needed to get help as she obviously has issues (she says she wants to feel incredible all the time and can't bear the mundane day to day life). It transpires that although she isn't drinking the drug use has escalated, to the point she owes dealers. She came round last night and was vile, screaming and shouting at me. Told me all of this was her fault, she hated her life, we should take her back home and she would stop. I forced her to take the bedsit, if I hadn't she wouldn't be doing drugs. She hates her job, nobody has offered her a promotion and she's been there 3 years. I was very calm and told her, nobody had done this to her but herself and I wasn't going to discuss it anymore as she never listened (we asked her to attend Narcotics anonymous and the drs - she won't because they tell her things she doesn't want to hear). She was hateful, vicious and mean. I have got to the point where I totally dislike her and my husband says he despises her and can't be in her company. Sometimes I wish she was dead so that we didn't have to live like this and she wasn't suffering anymore. dh retires next year and we are going to sell up and move away (plan was to buy a house with annexe for dd if she got clean but that is never going to happen). All we wanted for her was to be happy, and either do uni/travel/or a job she liked. Whilst we are not perfect parents (who is) we have always encouraged and supported her and tried to do what we think is best. I am now at the point where I think - I've done everything I can, you are an adult and its up to you. I think this stems from growing up with both parents as alcoholics. I know she is a tortured soul but I can't help someone who refuses to take responsibility and help herself. Sorry for the essay, rant over - just wanted to get it off my chest!!! Thanks if you managed to read to the end

Some things are worth it when they are essential. An essential expense. We all seem to put so much faith in NHS MH when the evidence is that it is a crap service, not least because of ever-decreasing funding.

For some people covering their grocery bill is as about essential as things can get - there is just no more money for anything like privately funded mental health care, even with the best will in the world.

I know nothing of the NHS either where I live, nor in the Uk, but I do know privately funded mental health care in the Uk like the back of my hand and I'd be living in cloud cuckoo land if I thought everyone should be able to access it if they really wanted to because its an essential.

But you know what? I think you are deliberately being an arse and just trying to find anyway you can to sock it to the OP. Shame on you!

igotaway I'm sorry about your son. It's an agonising thing to live with. The worst thing I found about my BPD was that the treatment was therapy (in my case psychotherapy) and having to address so very difficult past situations was so frightening. In my head at least bipolar was a medical condition and there were drugs that could help. The whole psychological thing was almost a step too far for me to deal with.

The reality of course is that because of what you do as a result of such conditions means you need different interventions to recover and live a 'normal' life. It took me a long time to come to terms with my actions as a result of both. I have a flight mechanism as a result of the BPD and a big problem with disassociative behaviour which are coping strategies I learnt as a very small child to retreat from the pain. Combine with bipolar it was pretty potent a mix. So you can develop one as a result of the other. It's really difficult.

But it can be treated :)

It's as springy and another post said - a dual diagnosis should be considered. There are a range of different things this poor young woman may have and it can be luck of the draw as to who is diagnosing her. I struck lucky with a good GP in my early 30s who recognised the bipolar, and then got so sick my husband moved me back to the Netherlands where he is from and I received superb care. But I was in and out of GP surgeries and a&e with overdoses from sixteen and sent to a child psychologist at 13 and 16 who were utterly rubbish (it really put me off for so long both were so crap).

I think it is better now but there is a long way to go before mental health receives the same support and funding as other conditions such as cancer, heart disease etc. There is just such a stigma attached to it too. I've worked for various health and medical research organisations over the years and you often hear the expression 'sexy' or 'cindarella' conditions bandied about. Personally I don't like those labels as there is nothing sexy about chemo, Parkinson's drug regime or speech impediment after a stroke, but there is no doubt some attract more attention than others. Mental health sadly still is at the bottom of the pile, underfunded and misunderstood. But 1 in 4 people will have some form of mental health problem in their life which is accompanied by an addiction of some sort normally. Cancer is 1 in 3. So there is a very high prevalence. And a very low tolerance in society. I wish I had the courage to be 'out' about my bipolar but I would lose my job. One day maybe. For now I will do what little I can anonymously.

Sorry bit of a tangent. I am so sad for all of you who are living with this. It impacts whole families with devastating results.

Surprised at your experience of al-anon but it pays to shop around. Peer-to-peer support can't be underestimated IMO.

I’m not at all surprised by the OPs experience of al-anon, it was definitely not helpful or useful for me. Although please don’t ask me to elaborate on that, as by doing so it can annoy or offend the many who do find it useful. It really isn’t for everyone.

I have a friend who recently went to a peer support group (not drugs or alcohol related at all) and it was a horrific and very damaging experience for her. They practically “ganged up” on her as she was choosing a different path of dealing with the issue than the other 9 people in the group. I should add, the path she was taking to come to terms with her issue was the one recommended by a psychologist and psychiatrist, and yet the peer support group tore her to shreds for it. She actually needed emdr therapy to get over that one evening of peer support. So while I think it’s fair to share your opinions that it shouldn’t be underestimated as a means of support, it should also be highlighted that in certain cases peer support groups can be damaging.

OP I know a lot of families who live with alcoholics and believe me not one of them goes Alanon just to get out of the house.

That is the reason I would rather not elaborate on why I don’t find al-anon helpful, whatever I could say, the people who find it helpful will disagree, and the risk of offending someone is just too high.

Mrsbrownsgirls, you make a very important point to counter the very many “you must seek therapy” posts. I had a good therapist with good results, but also awful and potentially damaging treatment with one therapist. I have also attended a group meeting set up by a large (national) psychological practice who were attempting to better their customer service by getting client feedback during structured group meetings, and some of the clients stories/complaints were quite horrific and downright off-putting. I always thought of therapy or peer support groups along the lines of "well it can't do any harm to try", but I now know it can be harmful instead of helpful.

Springdaffs, paid therapy can be crap and damaging too, not just NHS funded therapy, as I found out. But continue to use it as a stick to beat the OP with as you seem to enjoy it so much, and it’s not like the OP has much else on her plate to worry about.

But you know what? I think you are deliberately being an arse and just trying to find anyway you can to sock it to the OP. Shame on you!

My thoughts exactly GrannyOnTheSchoolRun, it really does seem that some people here are just looking for ways to lay blame at the OP’s door.

No, granny, I am not doing that at all. OP is suffering terribly, the situation is appalling, i wouldn't be 'socking it to' anyone in this position.

I mean that, IF people have the money, any money, then it is sometimes an essential expense. Eg legal fees are and can be essential expense and, although it initially makes your eyes water at what it is going to cost, it has to be found (I was in this position at one time and eventually paid in installments over many years ie I found a way because I had no choice).

IMO the NHS is so failing those who are facing intractable, but 'low level' (hollow laugh), MH problems that it becomes an 'essential expense' to find effective treatment elsewhere. Yet we automatically look to the NHS to step up when the evidence is that there is very little effective support there and we are left for years battling terrible situations than deteriorate as each gruelling year ticks by. If there was a way to stump up eg £20k+ to address it, we'd do it, and see it as an 'essential - if unfair as our healthcare orovider should be paying it - expense'. If the NHS aren't effectively meeting their duty of care, we have to do it for ourselves.

Which can mean forgoing holidays, new car, extension, house improvements etc for the foreseeable. It's a bitter pill but what it can buy is priceless.

I am making this as a suggestion, not an edict. OP's situation is so complex and longstanding eg her daughter refuses to engage, yet this could be part if her mental illness. When there is a dual DX going on, it can be far from straightforward - and well beyond the bounds, or the funds, or the willingness, of the NHS.

Thanks again for the support, blubirdy you are right. I know some posters find it hard to believe but I don't need a support group. I know Al Anon helps many but I personally found it a passive approach. What was sold to us was we surrendered responsibility to a "higher power" and tried to manage our lives around the addict. I was honest at the session and did say I surrendering was not an option, I wanted to take control of my circumstances and I did not want my life to be managing. As for counselling, I know what happened to me in the past was not my fault, it was wrong, I had no control over it as a child - HOWEVER I am an adult now and can control my life. I find looking forward more helpful for me than reflecting back on something that I couldn't change/control then or now. Although I understand for others this would be beneficial. I don't have any pent up anger/frustration etc from back then, that would ruin my life now. Yes I am sad about my daughter, and yes she frustrates me but shit happens, you find a way to deal with it and keep moving forward. As they say, when in hell - keep going.

I have e also paid handsomely for bad private therapy, so, no, it's not easy to find what you're looking for. perhaps a move to the Netherlands? They sound wonderful, living.

Perhaps, here, we get what we pay for and it's a case of finding the big money to secure the true experts. Heaven help those who have no hope of this no matter how they need it.

Also I think my posts are provoking some strong reactions. I don't think anyone is setting out to make me feel bad, some posters just have differing views and some were upset. I am not taking any of this personally (although the endless cycle of she needs help/you are responsible (which has now stopped) was frustrating because the posters probably hadn't read the whole chain of events).

Coming to this late and haven't read it all, but OP I wondered if you or your DD had ever thought about using the charity MIND. www.mind.org.uk They are brilliant for all MH problems including drugs and they have young volunteers who your DD could talk to - online, I think. They fall somewhere between the NHS and private support, IMO. There is also the charity BEAT- which supports eating disorders and many of their volunteers are young women who have come through an eating disorder. Worth investigating each of these.

If you want the name of an expert, then it's Prof Tanya Byron. She works NHS mental health and maybe privately too, but as you know has been a guest here on MN.
She runs an Q&A advice column in The Times every Monday- might be worth emailing her and asking her opinion and advice. Nothing lost.

Tanya Byron

In your shoes, I'd hot foot it here.

Every sympathy for you OP.You are in a difficult place.Some people don't live in the real world.

OP. I think you sound like an amazing women. I'm really impressed with your posts and with the way you are dealing with your DD.

It's been a very thought provoking if rather sad thread.

I think I would behave like you are if I were in a similar position. I am calm and buisness like and would try to remove myself from the emotive part of things. IYSWIM. You have to protect yourself don't you? However, I know I would have to allow myself the odd meltdown too. .

I really, really hope that your DD gets her act together.
Good luck for the future, look after yourself and your DH.

Thank you ziggy definitely a useful link.

Queen - I am not amazing, I am sure any parent would be the same

Yes I am sad about my daughter, and yes she frustrates me but shit happens, you find a way to deal with it and keep moving forward. As they say, when in hell - keep going.

This is very true. You could sit around contemplating your navel and talking forever with no result. Sometimes you just need to get on with things and not over analyse.

Mind is a great suggestion. I want to work there one day! Bipolar UK are also very good www.bipolaruk.org.uk

I would also recommend Action on Addiction www.actiononaddiction.org.uk and Addaction www.addaction.org.uk

thank you living you have been very helpful

Ooos xp. No, not every parent would do the same sadly. Somewhere your support and love will be registering with her. Even if she can't acknowledge it properly right now.

ohthat so glad your thread has taken an upward turn.

Much of your thread was pretty horrible to read, good on you for sticking with it, not sure I could of.

The whole point of parenthood is to enable your child to live independently of you one day. In some cases, obviously, this is not an easy job. I hope you manage it, I believe you will.

Your daughter thinks that you're an epic mum, I think so too.

aww thanks bruins

OP: I think that you have done the very very best that you can for such a long time. I admire your perseverance. I think that you will continue to do a remarkable job and your plans are spot on. I think that you are already living the Al-anon philosophy already to a degree..

My read of their "detached love" approach - is:

1. to take CONTROL and continue to drive your OWN life forward -- which you are doing. Live you own life to the full, continue to move forward and find what makes you happy, brings you strength and joy and then do it for you (moving house, having a massage, knitting, engaging in group therapy, going for a run, battle re-enactments... whatever who cares).

2. "Surrender", "submit", "be passive".... or learn to ACCEPT the situation that your dd is in...ie you have no control over it - but do not enable the boundary here is clear and brutal ie do not sort her problems, give money, clean her up, sort her accommodation. BUT always be available for non-judgmental emotional support and love ie just listening at the end of a phone or meeting up etc...and ensuring that she knows what doors of professional help are open to her when she is ready and compliant....might be in 2 weeks, 2 years, 20 years, never.

I think that you are looking forward to doing part 1 next year but maybe feel guilty or overwhelmed to take that step. DONT WAIT a year - live like that now....and feel proud that you are doing the right thing. Your dh might already be ahead of you in this respect? You will show your daughter that life moves on positively with out her dramas sucking you all in each time.

Transfer any feelings of anger, frustration etc that you may have to emotions of pity as you would with anyone else struggling and suffering with a life-long chronic condition. In this chicken and egg situation - ie addiction (to food/alcohol/drugs) + MH issues (as yet un-diagnosed but whatever the eventual diagnosis the symptoms and any treatment are all tied up with the addiction) BOTH are not her fault or your fault as they are an organic or genetic predisposition.

If she had diabetes there is no one to blame - but still there are responsibilities of the friend/parent/carer to provide information and encouragement and for the sufferer to act on this. You have done your bit a million times over.

Possibly part 2 you are not there yet and muddling "enabling" with "support". Being worried that she is fragile, vulnerable and that she will kill herself...is leading you into some sort of enabling situation. These 3 risks she is already definitely exposed to all day every day as an addict - she could overdose, have an accident etc. I dont know how far you are prepared to stand back to let her truly reach rock bottom.

I truly wish you every strength and continued hope that things will turn. I do think that you really have an amazing and respectful deep loving relationship with your daughter -- which is down to you and this is the money in the emotional bank that you have put in year on year on year before and after she was 13.

op - i think if you are going to leave you will need to prepare your dd in advance and make sure that she has alternative support in place. you should also write her a detailed letter explaining your reasons and perhaps leave the option open for reconciliation if she changes as she gets older.

OP you might also need advice from AA or NA as to how do you know if someone is dry/clean and how long do they recommend that your dd should be dry/clean for before you will take her with you - and maybe what plans you should have in place if she relapses...

OP I feel for you, both in how you have dealt with your struggles with your daughter and with how you have conducted yourself on this thread.

After reading this thread I then clicked on [[http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/2132393-Have-you-ever-wished-a-family-member-was-dead]] one which may be useful to you and to some posters who feel that one should endlessly put up with appalling behaviour from family members.

In my opinion it is totally ok to protect yourself from violent abuse, even if it comes from a vulnerable young woman. You and your dh obviously love her but as someone upthread put it, sometimes love is not enough. She has incredibly complex addiction and mh issues, which you have come to the sensible conclusion that you have to set boundaries around. Perfectly acceptable.

Also as a teenager I was bulimic for a while, and it was totally because I liked food, but also wanted to be thin. Nowt to do with not being loved enough. Not everything can be laid at the parents door.

Good luck op, have some

Oh bollocks I fucked up the link - its here

Sorry I haven't read all the thread as I find it so upsetting - agree with the poster who said people's reactions come put of fear, and the 'you must have missed something, you must not have given enough' type of thinking is all about them not wanting to accept a hard truth about the world.

I get this same attitude when I used to try and tell people what my life is like, and I learnt i cannot get support as people don't want to hear how bad things are and how boxed in I am. It's too uncomfortable for them. It's saddening as it alienates people who really are going through hell everyday.

Anyway, I just wanted to say I read your posts, and it sounds so so hard