I think my marriage may have ended

[isthisthend]

NC but regular, suspect H reads MN and knows my username. Keeping details scant.

Last night H snapped. He totally lost control after I admittedly but unintentionally provoked an already tricky situation. He burst into to our LO bedroom whilst I was trying & failing to resettle after yet another wake up. He was furious that I had chosen that time to bring up a question whilst LO was howling. The answer is that since LO was born I have done every bedtime, nightwaking & morning. We need to sleep train but for reasons that would out me, he really has to be off work.

H pushed me out of the way to get to LO, I don't know why, perhaps instinctively I fought back standing my ground. LO will only settle with a bf, H has never done a bedtime, I had no reason to think there was a valid reason for H to try and do the settling.

H grabbed my arm and yanked me out of his path to get to LO. Today I have extensive bruising & fingermarks as a result. He agreed to leave me to settle LO and his parting shot was it is over and has been for a while.

We've not spoken since. He's at work. He hasn't seen LO today.

I am devastated. I cannot believe we both behaved like that in front of our LO who was clearly terrified.

His behaviour was so out of character. I don't know if it's over. I don't know if I can ever feel the same way about him now. We have a beautiful LO, lovely home, good jobs, a happy marriage or so I thought. How do we recover from this? Can we?

Its all gone, hasn't it?

OP thinking of you as I go to bed. I hope you're ok tonight

Once again, a bunch of hysterical and over-opionated posters put off the OP.

Well done!

Keep your personal agendas to yourselves. Or better yet, keep a diary.

And what's your agenda, Vagabond? Minimising the actions of men who assault their wives?

Nice.

If that is the definition of domestic violence in the uk [that it even stretches to the minorest of financial abuse] then that definition is too wide.
I should imagine that there are not many marriages that have not had some sort of "domestic violence".
Even women dont tell the men what they are spending half the time.

I can't believe how many people are saying "oh but that wasn't dv!!".

If you saw this happening in public, would you intervene, call the police, or at least think "jesus christ that man is hurting that woman".

Frankly, if I saw a man grabbing his wife's arms so hard, and for so long that they had extensive bruising, then I would tell security if in a shop, or call the police if outside.

Here's another benchmark that you should think about carefully - if your husband had done this to anyone other than you, then that person would have already pressed charges by now, and he would be at the police station for assault.

Here's another one! If you were still working, turned up to work and people asked "where did you get those bruises" - if you told them your husband did it, what do you think their reaction would be?

It doesn't matter if he is tired. Jesus christ, who wants to be in a marriage where every time the other person is tired, or stressed, or whatever other bullshit reason, he is justified in assaulting his spouse? He hasn't even fucking apologised.

I feel very sorry for the posters who say "well if this is DV then all marriages must have DV!!". Wow. That is so sad. No. In healthy relationships your partner does not shove you. Or grab your arms. Or push you. Saying "it's okay because he's tired is about as healthy as saying it's okay because he's drunk.

Talk about denial much.

To the OP - to be perfectly honest, even the assault (because that what it was) to one side, it really does sound like you believe the relationship to be over. Is there any point sticking around in a dead (and no violent) relationship?

Sadly even this definition doesn't protect women.
Sadly, even we hysterical women tend to forgive too much and put up with too much.
Sadly, even that definition doesn't allow all abused people to get legal aid

Even more sadly, that definition doesn't protect women from being killed or put in hospital.

I'd rather be too cautious than too permissive.

Why shouldn't we want better relationships, rather than defend crappy ones?
If we all had definition in mind perhaps we would behave better towards our loved ones, but also expect better treatment from them and cut things short before we even reach the bruise stage.

Not telling your spouse what you are spending is not financial abuse. Refusing to allow your spouse equal access to the family money is financial abuse.

By that definition, no, most marriages do not have DV in them.

kaykay I have consistently referred to my husband slapping me as assault. I have no problem with seeing that that's the case, I don't need to benchmark anything.

What people are trying to distinguish between is someone losing their rag and abuse. That is a valid distinction. No, in an ideal world, noone would ever lose their rag. I agree that violence in a relationship is ALWAYS a problem. The OP clearly has a problem with her partner, as do I. But it doesn't always mean that the perpetrator is abusive. In reality, people under immense stress lash out, physically and verbally, all the time. How many people on MN have hit their kids in a temper, then been consumed by remorse and posted here? Are they all abusive parents? We're human beings. There has to be a space to talk about what is going on in the OP's life! The sound of my child screaming in the middle of the night in my sleep deprived brain has been a kind of torture that I never imagined possible, and the rage I felt toward my husband over it all consuming. I don't know how much help this thread would be to the OP if other people weren't allowed to acknowledge that they too have been absolutely at the brink with a small child, and I mean the utter brink.

The definition of DV is so wide as to be meaningless in a discussion like this - it's technical and relational, not substantive. That is absolutely as it should be - it privileges legally a relationship in which violence and abuse is rife, and by the nature of which (love, the effects of the abuse, children, joint property) it is hard to leave. It is designed to account for the fact that you can have serious, systemic abuse with very few incidents of violence, and very minor violence. I support all of that utterly. But for those of us who have experienced violence in our relationships that we do not feel is criminal, it says little.

But now this argument about DV has taken over the thread and is driving us into our respective corners. I agree with Vagabond. I wish to god that posters (whose views are wholly valid) could let others post differing views without jumping down their throats. I wish to god that people could post and say, 'well this was my experience', instead of telling the OP what is going on in her life when none of us really has a clue. Then the OP would have a range of perspectives to consider and space to discuss it with all of us. That's MY agenda. Instead, we have this squabbling, and it understandably has driven her away.

OP, if by some miracle you're still reading, it occurred to me that I could offer you practical support with the sleeping. I'll PM you.

There are events of domestic violence, such as a slap, a punch, an arm grabbed, and domestic violence as a pattern.

One event is still domestic violence and should be treated seriously. This does not necessarily mean LTB immediately, but making sure that the person who was violent knows and regrets the act in a mature and responsible way. Not as abusers regret it, which only leads to more violence.
It may be that the person who hit did it in response to stress, or abuse from the other partner. But the hitter should recognise not only the act, but the circumstances in which it happened. If someone hit the other after verbal abuse, then the verbal abuse should stop as well. It is the same as responding with verbal abuse.
The correct response to abuse is not to respond with more abuse (verbal or physical), but to walk away for example. That is why stress or even abuse don't "cause" domestic violence. But DV can happen in response to stress or abuse. It is still the choice of the person acting violently, and not caused by anything else, IYSWIM - just to be clear.

Lets assume that this event was his response (not caused by, but how he responded) to stress. Then he should have recognised that what he did was wrong, but that the stress should be managed as well.
It's ok to take some time to take stock and analyse the events, and so I hope that the husband in this case has managed to do the right thing without being coached.

I would agree with that Lweji. But I would also say that someone might have difficulty confronting their own behaviour precisely because they are so shocked by it, or for the same reasons that they did it in the first place.

Parents who hit their children in anger are made clear of why their actions were wrong. They are not pat on the back just because they feel guilty.
Raving mad abusers also feel guilty and ashamed, but they keep doing it. Because they don't actually take responsibility over it. They find excuses. They blame other people or circumstances.

Personally, I do feel that excusing violence should always be challenged. It's not something where there are just differences of opinion as which way to put the loo roll.

There is one stance that protects the victims and another that enables victims to slowly dive into DV as a pattern.

someone might have difficulty confronting their own behaviour precisely because they are so shocked by it, or for the same reasons that they did it in the first place.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean by the last part.

But even if that person is that shocked, after the initial numbness they should be able to take responsibility over they choice they took.

There is one stance that protects the victims and another that enables victims to slowly dive into DV as a pattern.

Disagree Lweji. Look around. Where's the OP? is any of us helping her now? The tone of your posts now is so different from earlier in the thread. Why did we all have to have a spat to get to this point?

someone might have difficulty confronting their own behaviour precisely because they are so shocked by it, or for the same reasons that they did it in the first place.

Yeah I was struggling to express what I meant. I suppose I think a loss of control can come from powerlessness, frustration, extreme stress - all those factors that contributed to it, can hinder a functional response. But emphasis on the can - I feel uncomfortable writing what might be taken as a diagnosis of OP's partner. I just don't think that his initial response, or lack of, can be immediately labelled as a lack of remorse or a failure to appreciate how appallingly he behaved. I also think that all the factors I describe can mean that a person fails to see how they're behaving, and take responsibility - so it does bleed into the abuse and systemic patterns, of course it does. Nowhere have I suggested that the OP should be apologising or tiptoeing around her partner, and if she does feel unsafe, then she needs to ask him to leave.

Look let's be clear. The night my husband hit me I threw him out of our bed, and would have kicked him out of the house if he had somewhere to go. I made no bones about the fact that I would be entitled to call the police. (I decided not to, because I didn't feel his behaviour should be criminalised, in our particular circumstance). I made no excuse for what he did. But I didn't leave my marriage, and I haven't felt unsafe since.

We do not know why the OP is not back.

There have been other similar circumstances where OPs have gone for a while and come back.
I could assume that she hasn't shown up because of the posts excusing his behaviour as well.

It was not my tone alone that changed. It hasn't changed that much, actually.

I can see that your stance on mumsnet on the relationship board has mellowed in the last couple of years, but still think that you have a way to go.

There are no perfect marriages, as there are no perfect people.

Is that me, who has only really been posting on MN for the last couple of years? Did you check my whole history?

God, I hope I haven't really mellowed regarding DV or abuse.

No, nothing is perfect, but some things are acceptable and others aren't.

I havent looked you up. You may have been here for 10 yearsa for all I know. But I have been here for 2 1/2 years, and seem to have seen you on the relationship board for at least 2 years.

This thread has been overrun with victim-blamers and excuse-makers.

Lweiji has been engaging with them with more thought and care than they deserve. I don't have the stomach to tease sense out of nonsense.

Rootypig, your posts are thoughtfully crafted, extensive, and nauseating. I get it: you've convinced yourself that it's okay to stay with a guy who assaults you and that it's excusable because he "lost his rag" and you dared to give him backchat. I am sorry for what you're going through and that most likely there was no one in your life to help you understand that no, it's not something that happens in every relationship and no, you aren't safe.

But it's unconscionable for you to go to such pains to share these sophistries with a recent victim just so you won't feel alone in your cognitive dissonance.

matilda, what a load of nonsense. It's your prerogative to think that my posts are nauseating - fine. I have no problem with other people mitigating what they see as the dangers of my experiences / advice. But don't tell me what's happening in my life. He didn't hit me because I dared to give him backchat. He hit me because he was insane and barely functioning and so was I. Have you never done something you were ashamed of? And I have discussed the fact with plenty of people, including my GP, eminently sensible friends and family, Mumsnet (I had a thread not dissimilar to this one, where lots of people like you described my relationship in terms that were utterly unrecognisable) and not least, with my husband. I may not have made a choice that you think is a good one, but I'm not a halfwit. So if you could stop talking about me "convincing myself", as though there is some blinding truth that you see and I don't, when you don't know me or my partner, I would appreciate it.

Here is the distinction: A man hitting his wife one, or grabbing her once, or pushing her once - that is physical ASSAULT.

If the woman sticks around and the man does these things repeatedly is ABUSE.

There is no magic line where is suddenly turns into domestic violence. It's domestic violence from the very first time because it is violent behaviour in your domicile.

It's not really that complicated.

If the OP doesn't think it will ever happen again, and just as importantly if her husband recognises that what he did was assault and is hugely contrite then, perhaps, for her and for some other women, there would be a way forward.

What's worrying here isn't just that he assaulted her, but also that he doesn't give two fucks that he did.

kaykay, you are just covering ground that I and countless people already have. And you have no idea that he "doesn't give two fucks".

I've been thinking about this thread, and my experience, and my responses, and I have two observations

1. I think I've ended up repeating and emphasising thoughts that are only part of what I think and feel, because of the barrage coming in the other direction
2. I feel battered and shouted down

These are criticisms that I have seen other people voice about the relationships board.

kaykay and matilda, telling another woman that the choice that she has made is wrong, is abhorrent. You'll support a woman who has suffered an incident of domestic violence, only as long as her reaction is the one you think is appropriate. Presumably your posts are motivated by a desire to help women who are struggling to name and identify their abuse gather strength, to validate their feelings, to galvanise them to get out. That, I would support. But from my perspective, you're just stifling the possibility of true support, because you're not willing to listen.

Anyway I haven't just been thinking about my criticisms of other posters. I have reread my posts and will reflect on what the effect on the OP and other women who have suffered violence might be, and try to strike a better balance myself in future.

Christ I've just had a total epiphany.

kaykay, matilda, neither of you has kids, do you?

This is an odd discussion because I think you are too personally involved and are directing odd strikes at other people rather than discussing ideas.

It's interesting that you feel battered and shouted down, when you are directing those comments at people. Why mention if pps have children or not? Why make a comment about mellowing?

You offered your perspective of someone who has been hit once, so far, and seems desperate to justify your choice. In most people's experience it doesn't happen once, only the first time. It does depend on context and you have admitted this case was not great, as was described.

Would you want to feel the responsibility for knowing the OP was hurt again because you told her it would be ok, because it happened to you and your oh hasn't hit you again (yet)?

It is indeed a sad place to be in to realise that the highest likelihood is that it will happen again, rather than being hopeful that it won't.

But the safest message for women is to protect themselves. Not to be hopeful of a good outcome. Sadly.

Got lost in the end, just wanted to thank Lweji for keeping up the good fight.

Sorry OP for your situation, but it is very upsetting to see the violence that was meted out to you.

I was only ever in one relationship of domestic violence and the easy forgiving of the first incident makes the second incident so much more inevitable, in my humble experience.

But I never ever had violence in any other relationship I was involved in. I can't understand how so many people are are saying that this is not domestic violence. It took place in the home (domestic) and OP has the bruises to show for it (violence).