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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

994 replies

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 26/04/2014 13:39

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/05/2014 20:59

nearlyready

You feel sorry for your mother but that's because you are a nice reasonable person (unlike your mother). I doubt very much she has and will ever give you the same consideration. I also think she could well manipulate the marriage counsellor. Distance yourself from them further when they start counselling!!.

Narcissistic women do not put up with husbands who stand up to them for very long; they either enable or are out on their ear. Narcissists simply cannot maintain healthy functional relationships.

You may find this from Lightshouse helpful:-

"Narcissists do know wrong from right. If they didn't, they wouldn't hide their unfair actions like they frequently do. If you ask narcissists whether it's fair play to cut someone off in traffic or take credit for someone else's work, they'll easily be able to tell you it's not right. And if they do either of those things, they will attempt to hide the fact that they've done it. This is because they do know it's wrong, and they don't want to lose the admiration and respect of others who will think less of them for having done so.

However, the diagnosis of pathological narcissism involves the presence of insufficient empathy. Even though narcissists do know hurting someone's feelings is wrong, they still aren't capable of really empathizing very much with (and therefore, caring about) the person being hurt.

So when narcissists need an ego fix, they do what they know is wrong (like putting someone down), largely because they lack the empathy that should stop them. Then, because they are aware that what they did is wrong and that people will think less of them for it, they cover it up so they won't have to pay the consequences. (Narcissists don't like consequences. Those are for little people.)

So narcissists will do insensitive things to get their narcissistic supply, because they both want it so badly and because there's no empathy to make them feel for the people they're being unkind to. Then, because they are aware it's wrong and that it makes them wrong, they cover it up and (perhaps sometimes unconsciously) deny it, gaslighting and projecting their way out of responsibility so that nobody, including themselves, will see them as imperfect for having done it. (And if you see them as imperfect, then you're a serious problem, because as long as you're there to remind them they're not perfect, they'll have to think about the concept, and they just plain won't.)
So...

Do narcissists know they hurt you?

They know you're hurt, but they don't feel your hurt.

Do narcissists know what they're doing is wrong?

They know what wrong is, and they may do it, but they cannot accept the concept of being a person who does anything wrong, because that means they're not superior and perfect. So narcissists vehemently push away the information that they've done something hurtful. They do know what a hurtful act is, and yet they have to deny that they did it.

Narcissists use a number of different ways to deny their hurtful actions (and to try making you deny it along with them so you'll stop complaining). Blaming others, gaslighting, labeling someone who complains about them cruel, lying, making excuses and playing the martyr are a narcissist's typical responses. Whatever it takes to stop all recognition (by them and you) of the fact that they were inconsiderate can be expected.

So yes, narcissists are aware that they've hurt your feelings and that it's wrong, but they just cannot accept that knowledge. They deny it to prevent narcissistic injury, and desperately want you to deny it as well. And usually, they deny it so quickly and so habitually that it doesn't even register in their consciousness before the excuses and protests are given out.

Typically, when told they've hurt your feelings, a narcissist's denial takes the forms of insisting you're not hurt, or that you shouldn't be hurt, that you're wrong to be hurt, that they didn't hurt you, that you're too easily hurt, and that you shouldn't complain because they're hurt worse".

GoodtoBetter · 04/05/2014 21:04

Hmm, I tell myself I'm getting better at managing her, but you know, today's encounter has been niggling at me all day. Obviously have a lot more work to do on myself....

GoodtoBetter · 04/05/2014 21:33

I see Appletini has seen the same thread as me.

Appletini · 04/05/2014 21:40

Dirtypaws I think crappy childhood = emotional wounds, and your pain is legit but not unhealable if that makes sense,

Cleorapter I feel your pain about siblings asking that - mine drove me up the wall when I first went NC. Don't be sorry for posting, it's good to get it out somewhere supportive. I'm sorry for all you endured.

AndTheBandPlayedOn I don't think it's a case of detaching emotionally, exactly. For me it's been about not assuming what the not-so-DM thinks and feels. I know she's a shit parent, but I don't think she does - I don't think she's made a conscious decision not to change.

I may be deluding myself...

GoodToBetter indeed I have. And I think it's a shame if anyone feels discouraged from posting here.

Appletini · 04/05/2014 22:13

I've been feeling pretty shitty today actually. Just had a ridiculous meltdown / crying fit / panic attack over - wait for it - cat poo. For crying out loud.

Seem to be going through a phase of missing my mum, or rather the abstract idea of a mum / the mum I should have had and not the one I did have, who wasn't much of a mother at all. I have this stupid fantasy about her contacting DH and asking if I would let her come to a therapy session so she can try to fix things. Like THAT's going to happen.

In reality DM believes my counsellor is turning me against her. I didn't want her to know I was seeing someone. My brother "forgot" it was confidential and told people. I wish I hadn't told HIM, frankly. That was fun before I went NC.

I can't work out if DM is a narcissist or an enabler. Possibly a bit of both. DF is a controlling bully - as a child I was never ever allowed to say anything critical or express any kind of upset or anger. I was constantly told how ungrateful I was and that seems to have got very deeply ingrained as I often panic and worry that DH thinks I'm ungrateful.

It's hard to explain what was wrong as it looked great from the outside. Materially everything was fine when they bothered to feed me properly but emotionally it wasn't. Nobody was nice to me. Nobody listened to me. And it seems my parents were just not emotionally connected to me.

I keep looking back and realising how wrong some things were. Like the way adults could do and say whatever they wanted and kids had to control their emotions, shouldn't it be the other way round?

When I was 11 there was something unpleasant involving an adult man doing something they shouldn't (don't want to go into detail here) and the police came and took a statement and my parents NEVER mentioned it again, never asked if I was okay or needed counselling or whatever, just acted like we'd been sat discussing the weather.

DB is choosing to stick his head in the sand even though he had a bad time too. He is the PFB/golden child and has actually told me he feels sympathy for the parents... Guess I don't exist, then. Actually in my family I really don't.

Sorry for ranting on...

Dirtypaws · 04/05/2014 22:13

I have had some counselling a long time ago but I didn't know then what I know now. And I know it's supposed to come out. It kind of did, I knew df was abusive but I know now that I was trying to reconcile it from my point of view. Which is completely different to the way these people tick. Does that make sense?
I think I'm pretty ready now for some counselling. I really do hope, as a pp said, that the rest of my life doesn't pan out the same way. Do you have to get to a 'point' where, actually it's difficult to say but I feel like the scales have fallen from my eyes. Does this have to happen, is this the point where you can go forward? It's like until you've realised this you cannot get better? Could I have found this earlier? Does this all make sense to anyone?

Appletini · 04/05/2014 22:19

Dirtypaws that makes perfect sense. There's a line between how you think life has been, and how it has really been. And at some point you start to see it. I think you've actually done very well to find it now - some people don't ever let themselves see it.

The way I see it, you knew deep down that it was there. But you couldn't consciously see it until you were ready to.

I've been skirting around this line for quite some time. I hope you do try counselling again. Mine has helped me a lot I think.

Dirtypaws · 04/05/2014 22:21

What should I look for in a counsellor? Obv I have to get on with them! What kind of qualifications should they have? Should they know about narcs? Is that a stupid question? It just doesn't seem to be common knowledge. I am going to fund it myself.

Appletini · 04/05/2014 22:26

Not a stupid question! I think they do need to know about narcs though it's possible they won't use the same terminology. As to qualifications, you could look for someone who's currently registered with BACP and/or UKCP as they have to go through a fairly stringent process to get that accreditation. Those websites also list areas covered by each therapist so you can get a feel for whether they might be a good fit.

Getting on with them is absolutely the most important thing - studies have shown this I believe.

Dirtypaws · 04/05/2014 22:33

Apple - perfectly put. I think ,my db is still in denial. I forwarded him some links about narcs. He replied that yes, it looked kind of like df but he's over it now and he will just bumble on. But I know he's still affected. Df was fucking awful to him, and I'm sure there are ore things db hasn't told me.

Funny dynamics though. I am the 'golden child' db and dsis were scapegoats. I don't know how that all fits in. I always felt great shame about being 'golden child' and terrible guilt especially over dsis who got overlooked by both dm and df. I just don't understand how I managed to get this far. I can't even explain what I mean. And I am the only one who's moved along way away. Dm and df divorced for 20 odd years now but they all still live a stones throw form each other. Nowt as queer as folk.

Jellymum1 · 04/05/2014 22:52

(just interrupting to mark sorry)

GoodtoBetter · 05/05/2014 09:04

Dirtypaws I have had one session so far. I Googled to find mine. I chose mine because I am abroad and wanted to do any therapy I had in English and this woman is bilingual and has lived in the States. She is a psychotherapist specialising in mindfulness, which interested me as I am interested in the ideas behind mindfulness and also because I want to learn to, sort of, come to terms with my feelings about DM and mindfulness seemed like it might help me and help me with my feelings of anger. Maybe not, but it interested me.
I've only had one session and it seems OK, I'm supposed to go again on weds, work permitting ad I'll see how that goes.

Appletini · 05/05/2014 18:08

I honestly couldn't tell you what made me pick my therapist in the end, just sort of felt right.

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 05/05/2014 19:21

Sigh.

DM and DSDad popped round today and invited themselves in for lunch. Wasn't a problem as such, we had time and enough food and they played happily with dd. However, after they went I felt irritated and worked out that it was because DM had made yet another comment about my size/weight. I am bigger all round this pregnancy but don't really feel the need for someone to highlight it for me!! And like anyone else would ever do that - turn up announced, expect lunch and then insult the hostess!!! So I'm left feeling insulted and pathetic for not sticking up for myself. Problem is, those little digs always take me by surprise and are just thrown in so quickly and casually I'm always caught off guard and can't reply. But then again I don't know if I'm brave enough to either.

Then she told me about the next craft item she will be making for dd. I'm so tired of getting all this stuff. I'm very fussy and know exactly what I want quite particular and just wish once she (and the other grandmothers - MIL and DSMum to be fair) would ask if there was anything we wanted and what colour/style we'd like rather than just telling us what we're going to get. I mumbled something about knowing what we want and simply changing the subject.

All v trivial in the great scheme of things. And I'm annoyed that I've let myself get annoyed about it!! And more than anything - I just wish it was different. That I didn't question her actions and motives constantly, that it was simply a relationship I enjoyed being part of and cherished.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 05/05/2014 20:15

A pity that you let them in at all today but never mind.

I presume too your stepdad did not say anything to his wife re her size comments to you. You cannot count on him ever to protect you from her I am sorry to say.

When narcissists need an ego fix, they do what they know is wrong (like putting someone down as happened to you today) largely because they lack the empathy that should stop them. Then, because they are aware that what they did is wrong and that people will think less of them for it, they cover it up so they won't have to pay the consequences.

(Narcissists don't like consequences. Those are for little people.)

Bin or otherwise dispose of the craft item when handed over. It is indeed true that narcissists are crap gift givers.

Appletini · 06/05/2014 05:17

It's not trivial, nearlyready. I'm writing this partly in reaction to that other thread - I don't want to put that poster off if they come over here, but I think this is important.

It's not trivial, because it's not happening in isolation. There's wider context. There's a world of difference between these things happening in a normal, functional family, and them happening in a toxic one where there's a back story. And every time they do their little digs or whatever, it triggers all sorts of old feelings as well as current ones.

I don't think it's trivial if they insult you, make digs at you, or ignore your wishes. And if you're not enjoying the relationship, that's very sad but it's not because you're not making enough effort, or doing the wrong thing. I don't mean to make it worse by over-dramatising, but I do think this is worth saying, you know?

That other thread has actually really grated on me because the gist was: it's trivial if your parents aren't good grandparents, just don't have them babysit, it's nothing compared to xyz. I understand that the person was very angry and fed up. But I also think a) they were ignoring the fact that, in the process, children were being subjected to toxic behaviour and b) that it's a really big deal actually.

My parents are not good grandparents and it's one of the reasons I've been unable to continue any kind of relationship with DB. I think his children are being taught to excuse my parents' behaviour and accept it as normal, and he'd rather not talk about it. I had to stop being part of the problem before I went mad.

Anyway. It's not trivial. If it was trivial, it wouldn't bother you.

Hissy · 06/05/2014 06:45

Not one of us would ever trivialise what has happened or not happened to anyone. On here or on any other abuse thread.

Everyone here has been so used to having their pain minimised for them that everyone posts 'what happened to me isn't nearly so serious as what's happened to others..'

My story may make you wince, but I don't feel it myself. Your story makes me cry but you don't feel it.

I don't buy that other thread at all tbh, and I don't for the life of me think that person will come here because they want the attention all to themselves. I for one wouldn't be overly chuffed if they did come tbh, and certainly not without a huge amount of humble pie and recognition of how rude and dismissive they've been. Why? Because they've hurt good people on here that they haven't even bothered to know.

Hide the thread (as I did) leave em to it. She's not receptive to help. She said posting was a mistake and from what I hear on PMs she's still there. Attention seeking/vampiric imvho. Possibly even a Narc herself. Dunno. Not my job to diagnose.

Hissy · 06/05/2014 06:49

(Narcissists don't like consequences. Those are for little people.)

Interesting. Very true.

nearlyreadyforstatelyhomes · 06/05/2014 07:52

Thank you - I do know its not really trivial but it's so hard to do anything about it. And I think so hard to not think that the problem is me and my inability to focus on her positive points instead if dwelling on the negative. Rationally I know it's because the negative stuff affects me to a greater extent than any positivity but the subtleness of it all makes it very very confusing.

DBro said he was telling his gf about DM and the gf just couldn't believe it was true. The surface picture is all just fine and she's funny and lively and modern and articulate and strong. So people find it hard to believe we'd think our mum is anything but cool. We've got a family event coming up soon and I'm already cringing about The Margaret* Show.

*not DM's real name!!

I've completely missed the other thread you're all talking about I think!

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 06/05/2014 07:55

Bookmarking. Work is really busy and I can't keep up right now on here.

OP posts:
Appletini · 06/05/2014 08:50

I agree about humble pie. I hid it, it's just got to me. Pah.

Appletini · 06/05/2014 08:51

I think possibly because all my life people have looked at things from the outside and assumed I've got nothing to complain about. I question whether I have all the time.

Hissy · 06/05/2014 11:29

Which is precisely the reason I am so cross that someone could just dismiss a thread and all on it in a single key stroke, furthermore ramming home how we have no right to feeling neglected, hurt, rejected.

I feel that there are people here who have come a long way and realised that what happened to them WASN'T right, only for one poster to come from nowhere and undo all that progress.

In no 'abuse' thread, group, therapy, freedom programme session I have ever been on has someone ever said anything that happened to me wasn't 'serious enough'. The smallest things are what really hurt, because it highlights the infinite extent to which someone who should have our best interests somewhere on their radar will go to, to make us hurt and them feel good about it. On the other hand, the biggest things are so awful we can't beleive they happen to us at times, we are then told they didn't happen by the people who did them, or enabled them to be done.

I would never, EVER tell someone that MY abuse was worse than YOURS. I struggle to comprehend how ANYONE could.

My MOTHER would tell me that I was making things worse, that I was exaggerating, had a vivid imagination, being a cow' but then there's a reason for that... and it's why I'm here.... Hmm

GoodtoBetter · 06/05/2014 12:19

No time to post, but nodding in agreement about the whole trivial or not debate. Also the show these narcs put on for other people...life and soul of the party etc.

Appletini · 06/05/2014 12:26

I'm sorry it's got to you too Hissy. I know that person was wrong but it's hard to shake off, isn't it? I knew I'd had enough of DF because - and this does sound trivial but isn't and that's the whole point - of his complete obsession with closing doors.

He's so uptight about it, one of DB's kids actually closed a door belonging to security in a panic. In an airport. While still in nappies. That opened my eyes to how DF controls everyone and everything around him - that a toddler could be worried about a door being open in a public place. I don't want that for me and my family.

It has lately dawned on me that my DF never said anything nice to me, never hugged me or played with me or took any interest in any aspect of my life and I thought that was okay, I didn't know it wasn't normal. That he wasn't nice to me, that I was always in the way, always wrong. DM said she was looking after me, pretended to be nice. Didn't. Wasn't.

Intellectually I know emotional neglect is bad. But nobody told me it was until long after I normalised it all. I thought it was normal to live in a messy, filthy house, I thought people with normally tidy houses were unusually houseproud, I thought it was normal to never have any privacy.

My only happy memories from childhood are from outside my house, and there aren't many of them.

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