"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
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Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

I think you're going to have to say those dates don't work for you. And keep repeating over and over again if needed. Ignore irrelevant arguments by her or manipulation but state the case, facts only not feelings. I think constantly having to reassert boundaries is exhausting and you may have to go nc again.

I can see you're trying to do the right thing but she's just going to push and push and push. I wouldn't have her to stay with her partner either. I think this is a road you shouldn't go down tbh.

I'm sure the others will be along soon with advice. Just don't make any decisions out of guilt x

I'd agree, say those dates won't work.

Then that you don't want midweek visits as you are too busy and it's too much.

Finally remind her that if it's too much like hard work having her in your life, that you're happy to go back to NC for the peace and quiet, so if she wants any part of your life, it's on your terms, not hers.

I would tell her that these dates do not and will not work for you.

She is borderline what exactly?. If she is a narcissist in terms of personality there is no borderline with such people, only degrees of narcissism.

What made you resume any contact with your mother?. Out of fear, obligation and good old fashioned guilt?. You can and will never do right by this person because she will continue to move the goalposts and drive a bus through any boundary you care to set. Its not your fault she is this way (btw do you know anything about her own childhood because that will give clues; the dysfunction started back then with her own parents) and it is not possible to have and or maintain any sort of relationship with such a person.

Your mother reads like a narcissist who smothers. Trying to maintain such boundaries will simply wear you out; it may be best to actually go NC again and this time maintain that stance.

Thanks, everyone.

'Facts not feelings': that's good advice, momeraths, cheers. I do try to keep all communication bland, neutral and factual, as I find this an effective shield which it's hard for her to get through. Similarly I don't rise to her barbed comments.

I'm not too fussed about her visiting with her husband, as he's fine (the poor sod) and she's much, much easier to deal with with others around. It gives her fewer opportunities to isolate me, and it keeps the craziness in check. She has been here before, when she invited herself for three days. She'd offered to do something for me with the house which I really needed doing and couldn't do myself, and which she was offering as a Christmas present. I can see now, of course, that it was another obligation trap to make me feel like I had to say yes to her visit (because why would I say no, when all she wants to do is come down and help me out . . .?) It's very clever, but I swear to God it's not conscious on her part. Subconscious, yes - but I don't think she actually sits there and plots. She's just crazy, lonely, and has no conception of healthy boundaries or relationships.

Hissy: the problem is I'm unemployed at the moment and don't have children (we've been trying, but only MCs so far). I spend most of my time renovating the house we've just bought. Thus she knows I'm at home all day, most days. It's hard to make the case that I'm too busy, especially as she'll then offer to come and help with DIY. I can 'create' things I'm doing, but I'm just sick of being the one who's on the run, having to think up lies about why I don't want to spend 48 solid hours alone with her.

That's just the irritation talking, of course: I know I'm going to have to draw the line somewhere, whether it's by stonewalling or lying about being busy.

Attilla: I meant that she displays traits of borderline personality disorder. She certainly does 'I hate you - don't leave me'. I feel a lot of the time like she hates me, but she's desperate to get into my skin. It's a terrible combination.

I can't remember why I resumed contact. It was five or six years ago now. I think she seemed to change, and to become less demanding. I read the piece posted upthread (sorry, can't remember who posted it) in which someone said that people will often change just enough to drag you back in, then start reasserting the old patterns, and I wonder if that's the case. A lot of that post rang true.

Nothing's been bad enough yet to make me go NC again. It's just this low background grind of resentment that drives me nuts. I'm always being got at with implications that I'm hurting her, letting her down, being ungrateful, and I just wish she'd f off.

If I'm honest, I do feel guilty. I can sense this tremendous sadness in her, and I know her own childhood was absolutely awful. She's told me the details (before all this kicked off) and it wasn't pretty. Her own mother was vile to her.

On the other hand, that's not my responsibility and I just want a normal mum, someone I can talk to and who will love and support and encourage me. I don't know how many people are lucky enough to have that, but I wish I was one of them.

Hi Ghost I could have written masses of your post. Your dm sounds quite similar to mine. I reckon mine is a histrionic/smothering narc with maybe a bit of bipolar tendencies (if that's possible)
she'll never understand why I won't give her total access to my self, or why I'm not her. Mine can't cope with the idea that I might enjoy different things, she can't get her head round the fact that I don't like gardening, have no interest in plants, don't read particularly novels for pleasure (read lots of current affairs, articles, etc)

'Facts not feelings': that's good advice, momeraths, cheers. I do try to keep all communication bland, neutral and factual, as I find this an effective shield which it's hard for her to get through. Similarly I don't rise to her barbed comments. This is the only way to go but it's hard to keep up a supposedly friendly relationship like this. It feels like such hard work deflecting all this smothering all the time.

She's just crazy, lonely, and has no conception of healthy boundaries or relationships sounds like mine. But mine is almost deliberately lonely. Makes no effort to make friends, seems to expect me to be her entire entertainment.

Attilla: I meant that she displays traits of borderline personality disorder. She certainly does 'I hate you - don't leave me'. I feel a lot of the time like she hates me, but she's desperate to get into my skin. It's a terrible combination. Maybe a bit manic depressive? DM can be a bit like this, either clingy and smothering or hates you and raging.

If I'm honest, I do feel guilty. I can sense this tremendous sadness in her, and I know her own childhood was absolutely awful. She's told me the details (before all this kicked off) and it wasn't pretty. Her own mother was vile to her. Totally, I feel bad about being annoyed by someone who had such a fucked up childhood.

On the other hand, that's not my responsibility and I just want a normal mum, someone I can talk to and who will love and support and encourage me. I feel like I can't talk to mine about anything as everything always has some kind of sore point or I know she's not approving...so we just end up with vague pleasantries and her going on and on and on about fucking tennis players I've never heard of.

NC really is the way to go, but i haven't managed that yet. Barring NC it's really got to be detaching and keeping an emotional and physical distance.
I would not let her stay if I were you. Say it's not convenient and no more.

"If I'm honest, I do feel guilty. I can sense this tremendous sadness in her, and I know her own childhood was absolutely awful. She's told me the details (before all this kicked off) and it wasn't pretty. Her own mother was vile to her.

On the other hand, that's not my responsibility and I just want a normal mum, someone I can talk to and who will love and support and encourage me".

Her own childhood was absolutely awful but that still does not give her the right to take out all her issues on you. She could have got help but for her own reasons chose not to accept or even seek any help. Many people with such personality disorders do not seek help and remain untreated. You are currently her willing audience; she knows she has an audience in you.

Such toxic dysfunction like this goes down the generations; your grandmother was abusive to your mother and now your mother is being abusive to you. Any children you go onto have will have to be kept well away from your mother. You would not tolerate any of this from a friend, your mother is truly no different.

I think you need to realise for good this time that your mother will never be the person you still on some level want her to be. She is not built that way and her own family did all that damage to her; its not your fault she is like this. Indeed she is not your responsibility but she probably tries to make you feel responsible for her.

What would it take for you to go NC with her this time around (and for your own sake I would not open that door again). Her behaviour towards you shows a complete lack of respect for you as a person, you are not a person in your own right in her eyes.

What's her husband like?. What's his role in all this dysfunction?.

I posted this part of an excerpt originally and it certainly applies with regards the dysfunctional relationship you have with your mother now:-

1. Accept that this is who they are and it’s not going to change
2. Let go of your hopes and expectations that things can be different
3. Let go of your hope that things could ever have been different
4. Don’t feed their negativity – just don’t allow yourself to be drawn into their dramas
5. You must remain neutral at all times when dealing with them – don’t allow them to trigger your emotions
6. Be prepared for the fact that when they sense you withdrawing your energy, they may change just enough to draw you back in, so that you think they have really changed. Once they’ve drawn you in, the same old patterns will repeat and you’ll find yourself in the same situation again.

ghost your description is unnervingly similar to my biol. mother. I dindt find her til 18 (how the heck did you survive being brought up by her?) but she was so similar to what you describe. The over-intensity that leaves you winces whenever she starts talking about something. The doom laden views (does your mother try the moral-superiority angle too? and the black/white approach to things and people?). The completely draining talking about emotions and heightening of even normal things into something dramatic. And the utter lack of boundaries until you start wincing if she asks you anything.

How did I handle her? In very, very short doses. 2 hours max, 2 times a year max.

Might it help to say, when she makes a barbed comment, to call her on it? "what did you mean by that? " or "are you trying to say something?" Or "if you have something to say, say it plainly". And make it clear that you expect her to answer straightforwardly, or the conversation is over.

Having said that, in yoru case, sadly I think the only solution is what Hissy says. Tell her that if it's too much like hard work having her in your life, that you're happy to go back to NC for the peace and quiet. it is sad, and it is hard for both of you, but the low grade resentments and sniping will grind you down more than you realise.

Good: oh yeah. LOTS familiar there!

Not being able to understand others' choices: that one's so bizarre. My M literally cannot understand why someone would choose to do something she doesn't like. Furthermore, that said thing is not just something she wouldn't do, it's something wrong. So my DB went travelling lately to the Far East, and she said to me that she didn't understand why anyone would want to go travelling, then that it was basically just Westerners going on poverty tourism, then that India was all just 'girls being raped on buses' and filth everywhere. It wasn't enough that it wasn't something that appealed to her: because she didn't understand it it had to be destroyed and dismissed, and my brother had to be a morally weak person for doing it.

Makes no effort to make friends: yes! She has had a few in the past, but she always has bust-ups with them and stops seeing them. Well-adjusted parents like my DH's have a network of friends, a social life, lead their own lives, look to each other and their peers for support and approval when necessary. My mum wants me to pay attention to what she's doing, approve of it, listen to all her complaints against other people: basically, be her best mate. It's not something I do any more. I was forced into that role from the age of 12. I remember comforting her at that age, just after her divorce from my father, and her saying she wanted to kill herself. I remember feeling desperate, but having to be 'strong' about it.

Can't talk to her: yes, although in my case it's because if I ever do open up to her, I feel doubly violated when she dismisses or belittles me later, as she inevitably does. Again, not something I do nowadays. Like you, I keep anything important away from her: feelings, dilemmas, joy, all of it.

And yeah, the deflection is hard work. Really hard work. Especially when the other half of that particular danced is smart, and knows what you're doing . . .

I'm sorry you've got one too

meerka, hi - that description is spooky. All of it, absolutely all of it, perfect fit. Moral superiority, absolutely. Black and white, yes. Massively over-intense, impossible to divert or talk down, intent on decrying almost everything. The world's going to hell in a handcart. It's like she's intent on bringing everyone around her down.

And the emotional stuff - insanely draining.

I can't believe she's one of a type! My heart goes out to you, having one too . . .

How did I survive growing up with her? I went underground for most of it. I was an intensely unhappy child. I didn't find out what had really happened until I was in my mid-twenties, and then the repressed memories came out in reams. It was extraordinary. I'd pushed so much stuff down and out of consciousness.

Thank you for your suggestions. I concur with you and Hissy: if it gets too much I'll have to go back NC. But the threat of NC isn't a great tool. It would escalate her behaviour so much that I'm better off just doing it there and then if I feel it's necessary.

attilla, ah, it's a little more complex than that.

She had lots of therapy.

Even better than that: she was training to be a therapist. Yeah. But she followed the usual pattern and had a huge bust-up with her supervisor, ending her training just before she was due to graduate (cue much 'the world has been so cruel to me' harping).

I don't hope that she'll be 'mum' again (though I'm often wistful when I see others' relationships with their parents, and wish that things could have been different for me). I'm beyond that, and know she'll never change.

What I want is for her to stop bothering me; or rather, that I can find a set of techniques that will preserve my boundaries without setting off World War III.

What's her husband like: well, he's her third, for a start. They got married when I was in my 30s, so I've never had a 'stepdad' relationship with him. He's a nice chap, very steady, very quiet. He's emotionally repressed and was attracted to her because she has such easy access to emotion. She can be very warm and impulsive at times. She also behaves in an atrociously belittling and patronising manner to him at times though, so I suspect he'll realise what he's got himself into soon. I hope to God they stay together because I cannot face the emotional weight that would inevitably fall back onto me if they ever split up. She's 10000 times worse when she's single, and it all comes down on me and my DB.

Yeah, any attempt to back off would redouble the weird behaviour. My mother was extremely smart too - at least for a long time, by the end all her smarts had long been dulled - and you end up playing a ridiculous game where you consider everythign you say carefully and trying not to give the slightest clue that anythign else might be going on.

I was lucky enough to have a sane, loving, hot tempered but loving adoptive mother for my first ten years. Could not, and I am deeply certain of this, have survived biol. mother bringing me up. You may have a lot of wounds, but you're damned resilient to have survived at all ghost. Sadly, both my much younger half-sisters were brought up by her and both have been very hurt indeed. She wasn't all bad, espeically when they were younger, but damn the price was high.

Does your mother have Rages?

My biol. mother was diagnosed with severe Borderline Personality Disorder btw. Can't be sure that your mother is the same, but it does sound kind of the same way.... Usually it has a good treatment outcome but she was never able to stick at the treatment.

Wow how many of these women are there??

My mother also doesn't understand anything i do 'why would you want to go to the gym'? 'Why would you want to start a degree in your 30s' oh and when I passed she was all 'oh I'm so proud I've told everyone'.

Ive also started remembering things from my childhood that just leave me shocked, I don't remember her doing anything with me, it was always my father who took me. She used to take me out in the car with the man she was having an affair with!!!! I was 9 FFS.
When I had to have stitches she didn't come because she 'couldn't bear it' I just can't imagine not being strong and supporting my dcs whatever it was or however it made me feel! It's my job.

I can't believe I'm only just coming round to seeing these things as abnormal

The headfuck for me is that my DM can be really quite nice too. Have to keep remembering all the many reasons why I'm keeping her at arm's length.

meerka: I know that game well . It's called 'Everything's Fine' . . . you just stay as neutral and boring as you can, and never give away what you really feel about things. My M is a hound for negative stuff: if you're open and tell her something bad's happened, she'll settle down for a good dwell on it, and bring it up in every future conversation in a 'poor you' kind of way. It sounds harmless enough, but it's a way of dragging you into the negativity vortex, and she'll follow up by going on about all her own resentments.

I'm glad you had a loving adoptive mum. As for your younger sisters, it's horrible to see anyone being damaged. Hopefully you will be an important touchstone for them in seeing their own history for what it is, and that healing and happiness are possible.

My M didn't have violent rages, it's the one symptom of BPD I can't recollect. She expressed a lot of violent emotion, but never throwing things against the wall etc.

moz, hi. The repressed memories are a real revelation. It's hard to believe you can choose to bury that stuff, but as a child you do, because you can't survive the truth.

My M drove me and my brother to a country lane near where my father was staying with his mistress (just after their marriage broke up) and dumped us both there, without coats, in the tipping down rain, because he'd changed access arrangements. I remember being so wet that the dye ran out of my top and stained my T-shirt. No matter how angry I was, I wouldn't have used my kids as game pieces in that way.

She used to share her fantasies with me of meeting the mistress in the supermarket and punching her, and exactly how she'd hit her. I was 12. When she divorced her second husband, I remember her telling me she'd like to beat him with a baseball bat. At least I was 20 for that one.

And the stitches . . . she was terrified of needles herself, but called me a 'terrible physical coward' for being scared of inoculation injections at school.

But yeah, good, she could and can be nice too. She's not a monster. She can go for months being completely innocuous, but inevitably there'll be some bullshit later. The longest I went with her being reasonable was a year: then she told my brother she was worried I would pass on a 'generation of hate' to my own children.

By the way, thank you to everyone who has offered me advice and shared their story. It really does help me to see what's going on realistically, and not get lost in guilt or obligation.

Re visit, I'm afraid I'd already sent a message offering a weekend visit rather than a weekday one when I first posted . . . No response yet, we'll see what happens. I can't imagine it'll be anything reasonable . . .

marking my place.

OK, so I have a response. It is very normal. It just says 'Thanks for the invite, H doesn't want to visit on weekend but maybe we can come down in the winter when his job is less busy.'

I'm surprised.

I also have a horrible feeling that something weird is about to happen.

It's this kind of thing that does my head in, and makes me feel like I'm hugely over-reacting. Maybe I'm being unfair. Uuurgh

have you heard of operant conditioning?

2 dogs. First dog presses a button, it gets food every time. Suddenly it stops getting food at the button-press. Shortly after, it gives up pressing the button and ignores it.

Second dog gets food when it presses the button sometimes. Because it gets food just often enough to still be rewarded, it keeps pressing the button looooong looooong after the other dog.

If you get 'punished' by extreme behaviour sometimes and not at other times, you'll still be dreading any situation that might provoke the extreme reaction. It might not come, but you've been conditioned to expect it and it'll come often enough for you to carry on dreading it a long long tme.

If you mother is anything like mine was, in a situation like this she might have gone absolutely crazy - it was a symptom you didn't love her, you were unreliable (hah), you were selfish etc etc eetc. But on the other hand if something else had grabbed her attention, all her focus might be on that and she'd just say 'ok'.

Unpredicatability! btw, they say that what a child needs more than anything is consistency ....

That is exactly what I was expecting, meerka. A bad response, the implication being that I was being hurtful and unreasonable.

It is utterly inconsistent. I expected it with this, and it didn't happen. I didn't expect to be guilt-tripped for 'only' sending a card on Mother's Day when I was going through an MC, and that did happen.

The operant conditioning analogy is interesting. I do spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about this crap.

I have very finely-tuned instincts (as you'd expect ) and I think there's something nasty brewing. I would not be at all surprised to be attacked obliquely at some stage fairly soon. It's usually just when I'm wondering if I've been too harsh.

Totally know what you mean, Ghost and, Meerka that dog analogy is great and explains a lot. But it's horrible to feel you're walking on eggshells and waiting for an explosion all the time. That you can never predict the reaction to anything.

it was a revelation to me too, when I did A level psychology and read about it. it applies just as much to people as animals. Can't remember who it was who did the epxeriements, too long ago - Skinner, maybe?

Stay strong, ghost. You weren't unreasonable at all.

I have never posted on this thread before and have name changed. I feel that I need some help with dealing with my father. He is an irrational and angry man who I have struggled with in many ways since childhood, but most clearly since I was a teenager.
When I was 16, he completely lost his temper with me and pushed me on to the stairs as I was running away from him and hit me. This is the one and only time he has been physically violent, but he is often verbally agressive. He is scathing about the part of the country I live in, having moved away from home. He is rude about whatever meal I make him when they visit. He will be snarling if I phone them at the wrong time. He will argue agressively about facts. He loves to put me down in company, the more people there the better. The last time we were home, my DD(4) was tired and a bit whiny. She went out into the garden. I apologised and said to all at the table, 'she's a bit tired with the travelling and she's having a moaning day'. Straightaway, my dad said, without any hint of a joke in his voice ' Well, she has inherited it from you. You are nothing but a moaner'. This was in front of my mother, brother, husband and 3 cousins. Everyone was embarrassed.
He behaves in a similar way towards my mother, and she puts up with it, and I guess expects me to do as well. He has even started to be a bit like this with my DD, but I am doing my best to stand up for her and be fair to her. He did the zip up on the back of her dress, and caught a chunk of her hair, (which was a true accident). Where the crap started was that he refused to say sorry, told her she was making a fuss about nothing, and stormed off. I sat down with her and said, 'It was an accident, but he is wrong not to say sorry'. 'Why won't he say sorry?' How to answer this question. Why is he like this?

I have never really spoken to anyone about this, other than my DH, and even to him I tone it down because I don't want him to judge him has hard has I have come to do. Does this make any sense? They are coming to visit for a few days soon, and I am trying to brace myself for the snarls and put downs.

Cheers meerka, and good. I will stick around here, it's really useful and I think I may have more to deal with shortly

rising: hi. I'm sorry to hear your dad treats you that way. It sounds absolutely awful, and it is completely unacceptable.

You're not judging him, or being hard on him - from what you've said it sounds like you've been subjected to years of emotional attacks and ridicule. You don't need to feel guilty about being honest.

Why he does it isn't something you need to figure out . . . that's his problem. Nothing gives him the right to hurt you or your daughter.

Have you ever spoken to anyone professional about what's been happening? A therapist, or a counsellor? I found it hugely helpful to go to therapy, it really helped me figure out what was going on and how I could protect myself.

I suspect your husband, who must have seen a lot of this, has his own views.

I think you need to speak openly and honestly to him about the situatoin and decide how to handle it together. That's very important, that you are united on this. If nothing else, he must find this behaviour being shown to your daughter absolutely not ok.

Actual advice? well. This behaviour is unacceptable. What would happen if you stand up to him and calmly, neutrally say so. And if he has a go at your daughter again, tell him that if he doesn't apologise he will have to leave. and follow it through. Your mum and you have been conditioned to accept it. But your daughter does not have to endure it, if you and your husband decide to prevent it.

How will he react? Will he get angry, storm off and refuse to speak to you ever again? or will he not-apologise but (after a time) come round and cease being so rude? If it means a family rift, how will you handle it? planning how he might react and how you will handle it helps a very great deal both in practical handling it and in emotionally handling it all.

Phrasing to stand up to him: "Dad, please don't speak to me / daughter like that". "dad, it was an accident. Please don't speak to daughter like that" and if he does it again ask him to leave.

I'm afraid that your mother will have to fight her battle alone though. Which it sounds like she's already lost, sadly. But this fight is for you and your daughter.

Again, I do think you need to speak to your husband or a truely trusted friend about this though and what it was like growing up with this. It will have affected you and formed you probably more deeply that you realise.

And you can always post here!

risingdawn

What Meerka wrote.

Both of you have to present a united front with regards to your parents and to your Dad in particular. Your own boundaries in particular have been far too low to date through inbuilt conditioning.

Honestly I would cancel this visit by them now. If your dad cannot and will not behave decently and he is a bully he does not deserve to see any of you at all.

Why should you and your own family unit have to be subjected to your father and his enabler and bystander of a wife who has stayed with this man for her own (selfish) reasons?. Your 4 year old daughter is very perceptive. Your mother has certainly become conditioned to this and its not on at all. You do not have to follow her rubbish lead and your Dad has NO right at all to act like this in front of your child. It is your job amongst many to actually protect her from such malign influences like toxic (and your dad is certainly emotionally abusive) grandparents.

You seem very much anyway in FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) with regards to your Dad. Would suggest you have counselling with regards to the relationship you have with your dad in particular. I would also post here as well.