"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

I feel bad thinking "oh, fuck off" about someone who is depressed and I know she has masses and masses of issues, including actually sexual abuse by a family friend as a child. But I can't deal with the catastrophising about everything. I feel like the world's worst person as she's had a lot thrown at her over the years and is a victim in many ways, but I find her emotional issues really hard to deal with. And although I feel sorry for her, she has also behaved abominably to me and never apologised. I suppose it all comes back to working on not feeling responsible for her. i find it all very complex to deal with emotionally.

Does anyone know that withdrawing is the appropriate thing to do, but find it extremely difficult to do in reality? It's like there's a wall that stops you from detaching and withdrawing. How to you get past this without feeling like you are abandoning them?

good your mother has learned that the only way to get any attention is via drama.

If there isn't drama going on, she'll create it.

Don't ever lose sight of what brought you to MN. She was absolutely gunning for your marriage. She was playing golden child shit with your dc.

She's depressed because it gets her what she wants.

She's a pro. Don't fall for it.

Tell her to man up, or bugger off.

GoodtoBetter, I remember reading that depression is a form of narcissism and Alice Miller says that those that are abused (sexual, physical, emotional) will abuse either themselves (substance abuse, depression), their children or those around them unless they discover their truth. So I presume that the reason why she is depressed is because she also had narcissistic parents herself. Although I have found this discovery didn't help me much as I just used it as an accuse to stay in the fog ie my parents can't help it because of the way they were raised.

But don't fall into my trap of thinking you can help them discover their truth! I am still in the 'they might change' trap.

Yes, chiggers. it threw up a million and very deepseated guilt feelings. I managed it in the end but some of those feelings are still there, despite intense therapy. One of the not-quite-healing scars that I have to live with.

Fortunately a lot of people do manage to completely detach without these lingering and useless and unjustified feelings, maybe one day I'll get there.

ghome depression is a form of narcissism? . I'd read it was frozen rage.

Hmmm not sure I believe that. A lot of people get depressed becuase of horrible circumstances, remove the circumstances and the depression lifts.

GoodtoBetter

She is a professional martyr. Your mother has chosen to make you a conduit for her own myriad of issues rather than seeking proper help that she should have sought years ago. She has actively chosen to live the way she does and likely enjoys being a victim because you are a ready and willing audience to her.

She will do this to you for the rest of her days as long as you remain any sort of audience to her.

She does not do this around your children thankfully but she is still a toxic grandparent to them. Also she was never any sort of a decent parent to you. Your children are in turn affected by her because they see your reactions to your mother's "interaction" (well with narcissists its really painful to watch a narc interact with their grandchild mainly because there is precisely no interaction) with you.

Meerka, I think that's my stumbling block with it, that I understand and empathise with people who suffer "situational" depression, i.e they are depressed because their life is awful, but I really struggle to understand being depressed, just because. which maybe makes me a terrible, cold person, but I don't get what she's depressed about. I was saying to her, stop being so horrible about yourself, be proud you sorted the situation out, why so negative ad she said almost triumphantly "because I'm very depressed". And I'm sorry but I don't get that. She's on ADs, if they're not working then she needs some kind of therapy (she needs that anyway). Thanks for all your input, I know (partly through experience) that the only thing is to step back but I then feel guilty if she's depressed and it's not her fault, although that's probably partly (even unconsciously) why she does it. She was saying to me the day before, "You do love me, don't you?" and instead of feeling sorry for her (what she wants) it made me want to run a mile.
Thanks for your comments too, Hissy. I must remember what's at the root of my relationship with her...her desire to smother and control me.

To come back to Chiggers' question, yes yes yes. That is my main problem with my mother. She's been awful to me, tried to destroy my marriage and I know the best thing would be much lower contact but I still find it really hard, and as this latest episode shows, she's a master at trying to draw me back in, even if she doesn't consciously realise what she's doing. she draws me in with woe is me and guilt.
hey, anyone heard from pumpkin lately?

Narcissists do not do very well in therapy and I doubt very much your mother would attend any such sessions anyway. She is many years work for even the most experienced of therapists and I do not think even a skilled therapist would make much if any headway with her.

She also has you as her audience; she uses you as her emotional dumping ground. That was the role she assigned for you from childhood; she wanted to create a "mini me" version of her own self.
You really have no other choice now but to completely disengage from her altogether.

1.Accept that this is who they are and it’s not going to change
2.Let go of your hopes and expectations that things can be different
3.Let go of your hope that things could ever have been different
4.Don’t feed their negativity – just don’t allow yourself to be drawn into their dramas
5.You must remain neutral at all times when dealing with them – don’t allow them to trigger your emotions
6.Be prepared for the fact that when they sense you withdrawing your energy, they may change just enough to draw you back in, so that you think they have really changed. Once they’ve drawn you in, the same old patterns will repeat and you’ll find yourself in the same situation again.

This excerpt may also be helpful:-

"Daughters of narcissistic mothers can become enraged as mom refuses to see them as their own person and are therefore not treated as such. Conversely, the daughter of a narcissistic mother may not realize this is happening and thus continue to become completely enmeshed with the narcissistic parent.

There are different ways narcissistic mothers keep their daughters dependent on them to maintain this source of narcissistic supply. Below are two common tactics of the narcissistic parent.

Parentification: The narcissistic mother expects her daughter to take care of her when it should be the other way around. The daughter is made to feel responsible for the mother’s physical and emotional needs. These needs can range from an unfair share of cooking and cleaning to playing therapist while her mother talks about her relationships, sex life, and other issues. These are much bigger roles than any child should have to take on, but a narcissistic mother does not care. She only cares about her own wants and needs.

Infantilization: Never being allowed to explore her own autonomy, her daughter is kept vulnerable, naive, and scared of the world and being on his or her own. A narcissistic mother will brainwash her child into thinking the world is a cruel place in which one would never be able to survive on one’s own. This leads a child to never feel safe and fear leaving the support of the narcissistic mother, even though they may be miserable.

Both of these tactics, along with numerous other ploys, are how narcissistic mothers try to make their daughter into a clone, a copy of themselves for their own twisted satisfaction. If a daughter of a narcissistic mother tries to gain any sort of independence, it is met with rage and tactics meant to keep the child in her control, terrified of what the narcissistic mother might do if boundaries are enforced or even requested.

Daughters of narcissistic mothers keenly feel the trouble mom has in setting boundaries between the two of them. This can result in the child having psychological symptoms like “dissociating” in order to have a mental if not physical break from the narcissistic abuse.

Daughters of narcissistic mothers can also convey their distress through physical symptoms, especially at a preverbal age. Unexplained physical symptoms such as stomach aches, headaches, and muscle twitches or spasms are common non-verbal expressions of anxiety.

Narcissistic enmeshment continues into the adulthood of the daughter. The narcissistic mother will try to intrude on personal relationships, marriage, and child rearing of her child’s kids. As a narcissistic mother-in-law, she will tell her child that his or her partner’s healthy desires for privacy or boundaries are abnormal or manipulative.
With an engulfing narcissistic mother, it can be very hard to get rid of her. It is important not to buy into her lies, intimidations, and manipulations. Don’t give in to her gaslighting or when she tries to tell you that you won’t be anything without her. Don’t be emotionally blackmailed by your narcissistic parent, your time is too precious.

Gain your own financial, physical, and emotional independence from her and do your best to enforce low contact or no contact (although, no contact is extremely difficult with these kinds of narcissistic mothers.) Involve the authorities if you need to or feel you’re in any danger. Protect yourself first. Set firm limits and be strong when enforcing them.

The battles a daughter of a narcissistic mother (DoNM), must fight in order to gain this hard won independence often costs time and tears. Both sons and daughters of narcissistic mothers deserve well earned peace and freedom".

Haven't seem pumpkin on here recently.

Attila can you expand on narcs interacting with their grandchildren?

I committed a NC sin this week by sending her a letter.
I feared she would never leave me alone otherwise, I've blocked her number now.
The letter was typed, emotionless and just laid out my NC rules
I wonder what she'll make of it.

This week she had a go at me because dd sent her a text to say thank you for her birthday money, but didn't mention the word grandma!! Apparently it was 'cold like you'
Whatever!

Mozzchops

I would have tried to dissuade you from sending such a letter anyway as this may open up the floodgates now for her to bother you even more. Or she may well use "winged monkeys" to employ against you as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you.
Gifts are rarely if ever given without emotional strings or conditions attached to them. Its painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchild mainly because there is no interaction. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated. Its not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

Yes I know you would but I felt I had to just to simply state that I was no longer having any contact with her, further letters would be returned and both numbers (her and the monkey) are blocked.

She's been very angry this week, she's given up saying how much she loves me and as mother and daughter we must have a relationship going to calling me names, saying I need a shrink etc etc, massively different from previous contact

Thanks for the grandparent thing, so much rings true. She has never given them anything they want, she always gives money then complains if they don't call her the minute it's received.
She even wrote in dds 18th card 'please let me know that you have received money', who the fuck writes that in a card?????

Mine over values the DC and is always giving them stuff, sometimes she gives them stuff that were presents from me to her.

I think the situation with your DM GoodtoBetter is that like abusive males use manufactured anger to terrorise their victims, people like your mother use manufactured depression to do the same.

Mozz I understand why you wrote and sent that letter. If your dm is like mine, she'll ignore all nuances, be rhino hide thick when it comes to reading signs and hints if they don't allow her to do exactly what they want. It's not possible to follow all NC rules if they continue to upset by making their unwelcome presence felt in your life.

I had to do the same 3 times. An email, which was replied to with a pack of lies, the fateful turning up at my door, the ranting/raving H and the police, and then the beginning of the texts re DS recovery all staring with 'So I hear...' meaning my sis has told her and she then text me so that I know she knows what's going on, even if I don't tell her.

Only a final text from me telling her i'd not be contacting her as she's not assuming any responsibility for anything she's done, or any of the heinous things she has allowed to happen/orchestrated.

good that's awful does she hope you won't notice or just totally oblivious??

I'm not sure really. There was a little wooden pot, which I'd brought back from Thailand. She gave that to DS as he was fiddling with it and she said something along the lines of "have it if you want..."and I thought to myself. She gave it to him in front of me, maybe she didn't remember.

Mozzchops I understand why you sent the letter. i think it tends to provoke the kind of contact you're receiving now. DM did that once she realised I wasn't backing down. But if you stick to your NC guns now, it'll die down I think. I know why you felt you had to state your position though.

Hissy, I think maybe you're onto something. I'm not sure it's as calculated as that sounds, I think it's more that her whole way of being is to crave attention and she has learnt to acheive that through pity invoking drama iyswim. Like a little kid, she's demanding and clingy "You do love me, don't you?" in a pathetic little voice on Thursday and if she doesn't get the attention she craves she turns it up a notch..."I'm sliding into a black hole of depression" in the desperate hope i'll feel....I don't know..fear, pity and she'll get some attention from me. Then it cycles through into anger when I don't play the game.

It's all quite sad really. I think she's really fucked up. But it's not my problem, she has to live her own life.

Oh it's deliberate alright, but it's a compulsive action for them.

Remember that abuse is borne of inferiority and fear not superiority and power.

They do this to get power. Which is why they react so badly when someone gets in the way of it (your dc, your dh, you getting stronger/better/happier)

These are people who want us miserable so they feel better. If there's no misery, they'll create it.

They can't necessarily help themselves, but that's still no reason why you should have to put up with it.

"I'm not sure it's as calculated as that sounds, I think it's more that her whole way of being is to crave attention and she has learnt to acheive that through pity invoking drama iyswim"

Oh but it is that calculated and deliberate. You simply do not want to think she could be that nasty, after all she is your mother. She knows that you are (currently at least) a willing audience to her. It is not your fault she is this way, her parents unleashed that lot of damage onto her in her own childhood.

Yes, I think her own childhood and especially her relationship with her mother and older sister (my aunt) was MASSIVELY fucked up....a life time of therapy right there, before you even get to the sexual abuse she suffered and then the whole marrying an alcoholic.
But, you're all right, it's her life and...in a way it doesn't even matter really how deliberate and conscious the whole "depression" thing is...I can't be dragged down by it. I won't.

Yes but there are plenty on here that have comparable histories, but they don't work so damned hard to wreck other people's lives.

Remember that this is her choice to behave like this.

Yes, a lot manage to break the pattern .... god, I hope the boys think I'm one when they're both 30 and can look back

Personally im not so sure that people can always consciously choose beyond a certain point. Up until that point sure, but then the pattern becomes too ingrained. But for one's own survival you have to back away slowly and keep distance and detach

good, hope I'm not being presumptuous but now and then I think how relieved your husband must be that you can see clearly now

Hi everyone. I'm a regular lurker here . . . been on MN a few years, but I've NCd as I'm recognisable elsewhere.

I'm in need of a bit of support re my mother. I hope you don't mind if I lay out the situation here. Don't want to thread-hijack, but it's getting on top of me a bit.

She's borderline. I had therapy about this a few years ago now, and went NC for a while afterwards (a year or two). I have only recently, very gingerly, allowed contact with her again. She has remarried since we went NC, which helps to make her more stable and manageable from my point of view, as I'm sure her poor H is getting the worst of it.

I have, however, never allowed her the same level of emotional access that she had to start with. This makes her desperate and angry. She doesn't seem to understand that there is any boundary between us, and wants to interrogate me about my emotions and talk in depth about hers. She is always extremely intense about everything: fatalistic, negative, joy-sapping. She also gets at me, because the contact I give her (though plenty by normal mum-daughter standards) is not enough, and she knows I'm keeping her at arm's length. So she'll make martyr comments about how I'm not interested in anything she does, don't want to see her, etc. On Mother's Day I got a passive-aggressive e-mail criticising me for not calling her - I was going through my fourth miscarriage at the time (which she knew about) and had sent her a card, but that wasn't enough.

Despite all of this, the situation is manageable now that I'm stronger and have escaped the madness: I'm happily married and live hundreds of miles away from her. But keeping her at arm's length is a perpetual battle. She is constantly trying to arrange visits which mean we'll have 'time alone'. Anything other than this (i.e. a normal, fun family gathering) doesn't 'count'. My brother and I stick together: we'll organise to go and see her at the same time, so she can't get at one of us alone. We recently did this, hoping that the visit would tick a box, and get us off the hook for a while.

However, less than two weeks later I got a birthday present from her. It's a hand-made item which took her lots of time. I tried to tell her it wasn't necessary, but she insisted on doing it. Attached to this was a letter saying only that she'd like to come and see me, and suggesting a two-day stay in the week. Ostensibly this is because she can get a lift down then, but actually it's because we'll be alone in the house together. I knew this gift would be a way of obligating me when she suggested it, but couldn't deter her.

She doesn't want to do anything when we're together. She doesn't want to go into town, because 'all town centres are just the same.' She doesn't want to watch television or listen to music (she finds both morally suspect, bizarrely). She doesn't want to go out or interact with other people. She dislikes pretty much the entire outside world - everything is corrupt, or destroying the environment, or decadent, or cruel. She's contemptuous of normal people because she thinks they're dull and bland, rather than a 'sensitive thinker' like herself. It seems like she's completely detached from the human world in general. It's hellish having her visit because you can't do anything with her bar go for a walk (and even then she'll probably start in on environmental issues or cruelty in farming).

I'm going to try and reorganise the visit for a weekend, and suggest she bring her husband down with her and we all do something together. However, I know that she'll spot it a mile off and it'll lead to martyr comments, manipulation and, if I'm successful, her being resentful and snide towards me.

I'm just so tired of having my boundaries assaulted. I feel very sad today. I can't see any possibility of respite until she's gone, which I know sounds awful. She just doesn't give up, and she'll never understand why I won't give her total access to my self, or why I'm not her. Most days I can deal with it, but at times like these I get so angry at being manipulated.

I was hoping others here might have gone through the same thing, or have some survival tips . . .

(Apologies for essay )