"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

mampam congrats on your preg :) and do feel free to peruse / join us on the HG thread, it's a bloody awful disease www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pregnancy/2092612-Hyperemesis-Support?pg=26

ghome, I need to head out now but in haste:

to find out if it's you being narcissistic or them, look at the people around you. Do you have a habit of falling out with people and wanting to go NC with them? If you don't, then it's them. If you do, it might be worth looking more closely at yourself. Also, while it's certainly not foolproof, if you have stable non-controlling friendships, that's a very good sign.

Simply genuinely asking yoruself if it's you or them is also a very good sign.

Regarding illness/death, I'll try to post more later, if I can

I have fallen out with two people in the past 3 years (both relating to my autistic son). One situation I think I made worse through my own narcissistic behavior (although the person I fell out with was extremely narcissistic too). However, I think I have made great progress since then with my own healing. The other person I fell out which I have analysed the situation in great depth and don't feel I could have done much more to remedy the situation. She was also very narcissistic and both people kind of remind me of my family esp my Dad (very controlling, grandiose and arrogant). It is weird because I have noticed I have a pull towards narcissistic people. Although it is something I am becoming more aware of and try to back off when I sense peoples need for constant self promotion. But I also have many long terms friend, I make new friends and many of what I call acquaintance friends so generally I think my relationships are fairly healthy.

From what you say, it doesnt sound like there's much danger of the problem lying in you then - simply becuase you're willing to genuinely look at yourself and work on yourself, and that you have long term friendships. I think myself that people who grow up in very poisonous households do have a tendancy (there are many many exceptions!) to need to watch themselves a bit, simply becuase we tend to model our ways of understanding and behaving on the models our parents use. Watching yoruself carefully, as you're doing, is one of the two best ways of preventing that (the other is developing some bluntly honest friends who'll tell you if you're starting to act like a PITA).

Family members becoming ill and dying ... that -is- difficult. Firstly, some toxic people love becoming 'ill' for the attention and as a way of pulling people back in - mostly because most normal people want to help family members who become ill. It's amazing how many diseases a toxic person can develop in a short space of time, really they are medical miracles that they live.

If someone is playing this game, then it's time to take stock about how far you feel that you want no further contact. How will you feel in 10 years' time if they die and you've stayed NC? if you think you'll feel glad you stayed NC, then well, the questoin is answered. if you think you will regret it, then you can try - cautiously- some contact. But - you have to be very careful. You have to stay absolutely neutral and keep emotionally distant. If they're really toxic, there's unlikely to be any genuine deathbed changes of heart. If you find yourself getting drawn in - it's probably best to walk away again.

In the FOG, its hard to remember - but it's reasonable and right to put your own health and happiness first as long as it's not at the expense of others. If someone is making you deeply miserable, then it's ok to look after yourself by keeping clear, even if they are your parents. (The only excpetion being non-adult children).

Well, that's how I see it ! hope it helps a bit

Thank you Meerka I had already found the HG Thread and it's a brilliant source of support. I also suffered HG with my last pregnancy, cue my mother telling me it was all in my head

ghome I too have realised that I seem to be drawn to people that tend to try and walk all over me. I'm not sure if they are necessarily narcs but do tend to be attention seeking or negative - drama queens. In the past I have tended to be very tolerant of people who treat me badly and forgive too easily. I guess I have been drawn to such people as their behaviour is familiar to me.

Part of going NC is the ability to accept that these people will probably die without you having any further contact with them. It's part of coming to terms with the fact that your life, health and wellbeing are more important than these people making it miserable for you.

I would be lying if I said it was easy......it wasn't at first but it does get easier. If I'm honest it wasn't really a decision I made to go NC it was more like a switch inside me that flicked after a series of events and enough was enough. Suddenly I didn't feel guilty for putting myself first for the first time in my life and by doing so meant that I was doing what was best for my children and my marriage. I could be the real person that I am, not who they thought I was or wanted me to be.

Just wondering if I could have a different perspective on my situation, if you good ladies don't mind? TBH, I don't know where to start and am in tears ATM because I don't know what to do.

I have 3 brothers and as a child I was always left out of many games and other things. They either told me that they didn't want me to play with them or just walked away. Eventually due to the constant rejection, I holed myself up in my bedroom and spend my days reading, studying and listening to music. I literally because a recluse.

All through my life I was always being picked on by my brothers and parents. My brothers would hit me while mum wasn't looking and I was grounded for hitting them back. Most of the time I was defending myself, but when it came to explaining why I lashed out, mum or dad wouldn't listen to me. As far as they were concerned, I was the troublemaker.

It got to the point where I came straight home from school and disappeared to my room. I only came out for meals. Everything I said or did was picked on and berated. I felt like I couldn't do right for doing wrong.

A couple of examples of this are when I took DS to the GP with scarlet fever. I only had enough credit on my phone to send 2 text and needed to tell my mum about DS, so I sent the 2 texts to my SIL and dad who I knew she would see that particular day (SIL was taking mum to the hospital to see dad). SIL got the text and passed the message on to mum. When mum got back to her house she rang me and berated me for not telling her directly, so I replied that the texts to SIL and dad were the only option I had at the time. This wasn't good enough for her, so I told her that while she was ranting, it was hard to talk to her in a civil and rational manner, told her that I would speak to her when she was calmer and put the phone down. She was enraged with that because she phoned my middle brother who then rang me and played merry hell with me and wouldn't listen to what actually happened between mum and me. There are so many more examples I could go through but they would take me all night to explain and I don't want to bore you.

Things are still pretty much the same. I've spent most of my life thinking I'm not good enough for my family and would like to hear what your thoughts on this

My thoughts? It all sounds too familiar [amgry] So sad for that little girl you were and how instead of asking how DS was she rings you up to berate you.

How are things right now? Have you gone nc?

It has always felt like I am tolerated rather than a loved member of my family.

You deserve so much more.

Sadly it sounds like unless a miracle happens you will always be the scapegoat :(

You really do deserve much better! I hope your partner is loving and appreciates you

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly MomeRaths. I haven't gone NC but am LC even though I'm only 5mins away from parents house. I can't win as nothing I do is ever right or good enough. I suppose I'm holding out in hope of a change in them, but at the same time, I believe that nothing will change. I was on FB to a few friends about moving to another part of the country, if I get the grades I'm hoping for to get into university. If not they also know that we're thinking of moving to another part of town. My parents knew, but my middle brother has berated me and is still sniping about me abandoning our parents in their years of most need.

The thing is, I take a step back and look at my situation and I see my brother twisting what I have said and trying to use it against me. He's the type of person who could easily start a serious argument as he likes to twist things round and make it seem that the other person is wrong and he is always right. I have a lot of knowledge of staffies and the history/nature of the breed. Intellectually, I had my brother backed into a corner in such a way that he couldn't counter my information on the breed. That's when he got incredibly and threatened to stab my 2 dogs (both staffies) "if they so much as sniffed round his DD's the wrong way" . That was him lashing out because he didn't have any info that would stand up against my claim (was asking him to let me show his DD's how gentle SBT actually were).

When I imagine I am advising a friend on the same situation, I see that my middie brother is a goady, aggressive individual with not many good traits. I see that he twists what people say to make them look like the bad one and all the usual crap. There is far more negative traits to my brother than good ones.

My other brothers aren't as bad. In the last 5 years, all 3 of them have gone out to a few bars in town and not one of them has caleed ortext me to ask if I would like to join them. Kid of makes me feel like I'm not good enough to go out with them and not wanted within the family.

Anyway, will be back tomorrow morning as I'm going to bed after I take the dogs for a walk.

Take care and thanks for all your replies.

incredibly angry

Kind of makes me feel like I'm not good enough

I would restrict them on all on fb if you haven't already. Or block them, but then they'll know you've disappeared off their friends list.

I honestly would stop all dialogue with them all. This whole situation makes you feel worthless. You'd be amazed how good you'll feel and free without them. It's a waste of your energy and time. You'll never be good enough.

Chiggers it sounds like such a hurtful situation. Have you read any books that have helped with identify your truth?

Apologies for not getting back on the thread earlier, have had to send off some emails about other courses I could do at the local college.

I haven't a clue how to block people on FB. Only know how to unfriend them.

ghome it is very hurtful. Meerka My husband says that the one thing he thanks my family for is that it has taught me to be extremely independent and not to ask or depend on them for anything. I suppose my fierce independence comes from wanting to keep my family at arm's length, which means having to be able to do most things myself. I've had many friends say that I should go NC, but then I'll be made out to be the bad one. TBH, I am totally emotionally shattered and just want to be left alone, but should I ask for that one thing, there'll be rumours going round that I have MH problems (I don't get depressed by their antics, just annoyed and tend to roll my eyes at them now). Does anyone find that dealing with these types of people takes it out of you? In my situation, it's a case of emotionally beat her if she does and do the same if she doesn't. Can't win, can we???

dear god yes, it takes it out of you!!!

People keeps saying the Lundy Bancroft book is brilliant becuase it teaches you to detach while still having to deal with utterly unpleasant people. It's about abusive partners but a lot of it applies to other toxic relationships. It might be worth getting?

Question: Who, exactly, would make you out to be the bad one? does their opinion matter?

If it's your family who'd make you out to be the bad one - 1) they already are and 2) if they did moreso, would it matter? and 3) what are the chances they are already badmouthing you to various relatives?

If your friends irl are telling you to go NC, it must be pretty obviously appalling. Few people from normal homes tell others to go NC. 'normal' people don't have the experience of a toxic home, only friendly homes so they tend to encourage staying in contact. If they are saying go NC ..... it's gotta be bad.

Meerka, did you ever think about moving away without telling them where you were going? I'm at that cross roads ATM and I've got to the point now that and don't want to tell them. I guess I'm deliberating because of FOG. I know mum will turn on the waterworks, ring middle brother and he'll be calling me all the names under the sun for 'abandoning' mum and dad.

when it came to university time I thought of a map of the country. Chose two possible universities. Genuinely like them both. But funnily enough they both happened to be as far as you could get away from the two cities where adoptive father and biological mother lived and still be in the UK. other unis that I liked were dismissed.

Then I found a man I loved who happens to be overseas ....

people said dind't you miss your family? the answer is NO NO NO except for one half sister out of a sum total of parents / step / half-siblings that is ridiculous.

Ahem, that's not quite what you asked. Did I tell all the relevant people concerned where I was going? Yes because I didnt then realise how bad the biol. mother was, or how uninterested adoptive father was. Not quite the same situation as you.

It seems to me that actually you want to not tell them. I think you should go with what you, yourself, want to do. Coming in for verbal abuse is another reason to stand strong and stand by what you want to do for yourself.

hm, to explain the last sentance: if you know you're going to come in for verbal abuse, you know that they're trying to get you back under control. Using it as an excuse to pick on you again.

Which means that if you -don't- tell them, you're standing strong, for yourself. YOu can plan how to handle the verbal crap - "please don't talk to me like that" and then if he doesn't stop, say "im not prepared to talk with you until you speak to me better. Goodbye" and put the phone down.

Believe me Meerka, I've tried everything from gentle persuasion to firm talk to going nuclear. Nothing makes them see how they're treating me. I'm off to take the dogs for a nice long walk and reflect a bit on what to do.

Thanks for all your views and help everyone. I'll be back tomorrow to see more posts and what little nuggets of gold standard advice they'll hold.

See you all tomorrow

I do believe you. But by following through - putting down the phone and refusing to speak to him again if he rings up again or mails until he does speak to you better - you're taking action.

In the end though, the only thing that will work is changing your expectations. Stopping wanting anything from them, including decent treatment. Detaching.

It's hard :/

ah, yes Chiggers abandonment. Things have been quiet here, but there was a bit of a flare up this morning and now I feel a bit bad because I just can't get my head round this "I'm depressed" thing she keeps trotting out and the turning EVERY TINY LITTLE MISHAP into the end of the world. Today it was that she got home and realised the pharmacist hadn't put her ADs in the bag, just her hayfever tabs. Instead of popping back round and saying, (which she is perfectly capable of doing in Spanish) "you didn't put my tablets in" she rings me and starts almost crying and hyperventilating. She starts by saying she knows I'm getting the kids off to summer school but she has a big problem she doesn't know how to fix. ffs.
I told her I was couldn't help right then but apparently she had to go out to the supermarket and "can't cope" with the traffic later on, so had to be then. I suggested she pop round and after a bit of crying and "I can't cope with life here" she said she would.
Lo and behold, she rings me about 30 mins later to say she'd got the stuff. But instead of being pleased she starts in about how she's so useless cos she cold remember how to conjugate a word and she had to use another and she never used to be stupid and it's so embarrassing. I told her to stop slagging herself off like that, to go off and do the shopping as planned and treat herself to a coffee as a reward for sorting out a problem in a foreign language.
"I wouldn't know where to have a coffee" Go to the place opposite the phone shop in the hypermarket (she's been there loads). "But I couldn't go there, it's where I've been with you" what does that even MEAN???? That it would make her sad? All the happy memories of drinking lukewarm coffee in a busy hypermarket??? I don't get it?

But, I'm ashamed to say I don't get this "depression", always always being so negative. I've never suffered depression, maybe I'm a right cowbag, but I don't understand this constant negativity. She's on ADs, she has a beautiful house in a lovely village, 2 mins from her DD and GCs, whom she sees once at week minimum, she has a car, plenty of money, good health...but it's like her life's work is to be miserable. There's always something wrong, any tiny little hitch is a disaster of epic proportions. So much drama. I don't understand this miserable as default position. And I understand it's an illness but I just can't be doing with it. I think maybe I'm just a cow.

GoodtoBetter

No you are not a cowbag but your mother makes you think otherwise due to her own behaviour.

Your mother phones you because you're a willing audience; narcissists love the drama and you're giving her narc supply by listening to her diatribe against life itself.

Narcissists are paranoid and paranoids assume the worst as a matter of course. Hence their persecutory delusions, ideas of reference, constant sense of foreboding, superstitions, magical thinking and so on. They firmly believe that the world is a hostile place, out to get them, to humiliate and mock them and to deny them what they are entitled to by right of mere existence.

This negativity permeates every interaction in the narcissist's life and colours both his cognition and his affect (emotional makeup). Narcissists tend to exaggerate, retrodict and predict the direst things, complain and whine incessantly, and expect the most terrible outcomes, events, and reactions. Ironically, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Their obnoxious personality and intolerable conduct bring about the very calamitous results they so dread.

An interesting excerpt I recently read may help you as well:-

"Narcissists see the world in terms of how everything affects them and they are often very negative. The person in my family is very negative and I always like to look for the positive in every situation. I see what’s possible, rather than what’s not possible or what might or might not happen. I realized that every time this person was being negative about something, I would try to help them see it from a different perspective. This never worked. In fact, what it did was to feed their negativity. I realized that this person is actually happy being negative. Whenever I would come off the phone with them I would feel drained and frustrated. Why? Because I allowed myself to be drawn in, and allowed my energy to be used to feed their negativity. I don’t do that any more. Since I stopped doing it, things have changed dramatically. They cannot draw me in, they cannot engage me and so I am never emotionally drained after speaking with them. I don’t allow myself or my energy to be used in that way.

You may never have the relationship that you’d ideally like with this person. That’s just something that you have to accept. The more you try, the more you’re giving your power away, the more you’re feeding their negativity, and the more you’ll be driving yourself crazy. Here are the main things you need to do:
1.Accept that this is who they are and it’s not going to change
2.Let go of your hopes and expectations that things can be different
3.Let go of your hope that things could ever have been different
4.Don’t feed their negativity – just don’t allow yourself to be drawn into their dramas
5.You must remain neutral at all times when dealing with them – don’t allow them to trigger your emotions
6.Be prepared for the fact that when they sense you withdrawing your energy, they may change just enough to draw you back in, so that you think they have really changed. Once they’ve drawn you in, the same old patterns will repeat and you’ll find yourself in the same situation again.

This may all sound very harsh and I know it sounds like I’m making these people out to be bad people. I’m not saying they are bad people. I’m just saying that if they have this personality trait and you find it difficult to have a relationship with this person because of it, this is what you must do to re-claim your energy (and your sanity). If not, you’ll find yourself living your life according to their terms. You won’t be able to step into who you really are and what you really want to do in life because they have this control over you. And you are giving your power away to them".

Best thing to do is to detach by cutting short the conflab by saying, "sorry mum but I have to go now" then put the phone down. I would consider also severely now limiting the amount of time she is spending with your children as well. If she can do this to you she can do this to them as well.

For narcissists its all about them, not you and never you.

Thanks Attila This excerpt rings very true for me, I could have written it:

The person in my family is very negative and I always like to look for the positive in every situation. I see what’s possible, rather than what’s not possible or what might or might not happen. I realized that every time this person was being negative about something, I would try to help them see it from a different perspective. This never worked. In fact, what it did was to feed their negativity. I realized that this person is actually happy being negative. Whenever I would come off the phone with them I would feel drained and frustrated. Why? Because I allowed myself to be drawn in, and allowed my energy to be used to feed their negativity. This is what happened when we lived together, that it became almost an obsession for me (in a codependent way I suppose) to "cheer her up". Nothing worked, I think she just enjoyed and got used to the attention.

And also, you know she never asks me about my life, apart from on a very basic level, like how are you kind of thing. She tells me about whatever disaster is currently afflicting her (and tells me in huge detail, to the point that I'm mentally thinking "GET TO THE FUCKING POINT AND TELL ME WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER, WOMAN") or monologues about something she knows I don't follow or have no interest in, like tennis or an article I haven't read.

She was saying yday that she'd had a "bad" day the day before but had tried to pull her self out of it by gardening/cooking etc. But had felt herself "slipping into a black hole" and I just don't basically understand why.

She doesn't do this around the kids, actually. And she's never alone with them.

I think negativity can come from overwhelming deep fear of just about everything, even living. But it can also become a habit that is incredibly difficult to break. People don't even realise how negative they are, sometimes. And god yes, so, so, so, so draining.

In the end you have to withdraw neutrally just to protect yourself and your own life and energy.