Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

994 replies

DontstepontheMomeRaths · 26/04/2014 13:39

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/06/2014 09:06

Dizzy

I am not actually sure if NC really has to be a joint decision; also your H seems incapable of actually making such a decision anyway due to his own FOG with regards to his mother.

You can protect your children as well as yourself from her malign influences; if you find her too difficult to deal with she will treat your children the very same. You can and must reinforce your own boundaries on what is and is not acceptable. A boundary that can be enforced as of now by you is no more family visits; if your H wants to see his mother that is up to him but why should you actually have to keep going back for more from her. You cannot stop nasty comments being addressed to your children actually being uttered by her even if you are in the same room.

Dysfunctional familial stuff like this filters down the generations after all.
She may well be "hurt" but her ill treatment of you all is really no excuse or justifications. Abusive people as well can be nice sometimes; if they were not nobody would want anything to do with them. But she is still abusive and likes throwing her weight around.

She may well be a product of her own abusive upbringing and have a lot of pain as a result. BTW what if anything do you know about this woman's childhood?. That often gives clues (pound to a penny there was abuse within it). Even so many people who had awful childhoods at the hands of such dysfunctional people make a choice going forward not to repeat the cycle of abuse with their own children. Your MIL failed her son and any of his siblings both utterly and abjectly. She does not have to inflict her own crap on you but chooses to do so. Also his mother does this currently too because she can; she has an audience. Power and control issues come into play. Such people as well do not change; you've already seen how profoundly affected your DH is by his mother and your children are in that same firing line now.

You would not tolerate any of this from a friend, family are truly no different.

DizzyKipper · 26/06/2014 22:12

I could make the decision by myself, without talking to DH or with regards to his feelings, but it wouldn't go down well. This marriage sometimes feels rocky - partly I think that's the natural stress and pressure that comes from having a child (DC2 on the way so it's about to get worse), partly I feel that all this family crap has overtime taken a toll and it's getting harder. But we do still try to do and decide things together - we don't make decisions that would usurp the other, we have respect for one another's feelings about things and try our best to come to decisions that even if we don't both agree with we can at least compromise on. Given that, I'm not right now prepared to ignore his feelings and push something onto him that he's not ready for. At worst it will be another incident to wear away at our marriage, I don't think our marriage needs that right now or that our relationship breaking down will in any way improve things for the DC. It is something I'd go ahead for if I felt that strongly that MIL definitely was doing harm to the children and there was nothing else I could do about it, but taking a course of action that I know could well be the catalyst that starts the end of our marriage is not something I'd do lightly. Right now - if we must maintain contact - it's on the basis that she's never left alone with DC and it's kept as minimal as possible. With DH only having weekends off and MIL working every weekend it's not as straight forward as me being able to say 'tough, you do the visiting' though.

MIL from what I can gather has gone the opposite route of her parents in her attempt to not do the same to her children, but it hasn't actually helped. They sound like they were quite cold and distant to her. Incidents that spring to mind was her dad serving up her pet rabbit to her for dinner one day and letting her know during the meal what she was eating. She also accidentally got pregnant at 17 and her father forced FIL to marry her. FIL (they split up when DH was 1 btw) would do drugs and beat her, but when she went to them for help they turned her away telling her it was her own fault and she had to get on with it. They weren't ever there for her so now MIL gets too involved in her kids' lives, she doesn't respect boundaries and will try to fight their battles for them. To me she is extremely smothering and controlling but to her it's apparently what makes her a good mum. Oh, and she has a case of never being wrong of course, so everything she does is just and right.

GoodtoBetter · 27/06/2014 20:03

Hello all! I've got a bit behind on the thread. I'll try to go back and catch up, but wanted to pop in and say hello to all you lovely people and see how everyone was. How's DS at, Hissy?
Things are good here. :)

ghome1971 · 29/06/2014 08:00

Hi

I am sorry as I haven't been on this thread for a while and haven't read the recent posts. I have been coping with my narcissistic parent quite well until yesterday. I maintain low contact and focus on emotional healing and self development. Yesterday, I had a strange dream and woke up in the morning with an urge to look at the title deeds on my parents farm. They have been hinting for some time that they would leave everything to my brother because of something my son said when he was 8. He hates my parents because they beat him when he was 3. When he was 8 (4 years ago) he said to them that when they die he will sell their farm and buy a bigger house! (He is autistic). Since then they have claimed that he must have got it from me and that they need to protect my brother from me. Anyway sure enough they have added my brother to the title deeds and not me. I was devastated and deeply hurt. It is their 50th anniversary next month. I don't know whether to go, to let them know I know about the deeds, to cut contact completely, to go and let them know I am only going to demonstrate compassion to my kids. I don't know how to remain strong. I feel like a child again and that all the work I have done to unmesh myself from them has been undone. Please help me work out what to do.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 29/06/2014 08:15

ghome,

I would not go anywhere near their golden wedding anniversary celebration particularly in view of the fact that they were previously violent towards your child. That action alone was enough to go completely no contact with them anyway. Such people were toxic as parents and as grandparents now they are no better; they remain narcissistic. How dare they also use your now 12 year old to get back at you for some supposed transgression that he uttered 4 years ago. Their hatred and contempt for others holds no bounds. Such people as well use wills to get back also at what they see as "errant" relatives. Stuff them and their hurtful behaviour, its not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist anyway and you do not want to be beholden to them in any way.

I would go no contact with them as of now. You do not need to be at all further obligated to them. Your current low contact status with them needs to be revised downwards towards no contact.

ghome1971 · 29/06/2014 08:52

Thanks, Meerkat. And the added pain for my son is that they claim the disinheritance is because of what he said. Although I have told him it actually has nothing to do with what he says and I have always been the scapegoat child and they would a left a lasting punishment of disinheritance irrespectfully. Nevertheless, he has to carry the worry that his actions resulted in my pain. Although, he despises them and seems to have the ability to see them for what they are. He says they over react to everything! They have always been so toxic towards him by demanding he is smacked for his bad behaviour, refusing to talk to him unless the pronounces his words properly (even though he a a language impairment), sending me email demanding to know how I will prevent him becoming a gangster.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 29/06/2014 09:35

ghome

I sincerely hope that neither you or your son have any direct face to face contact these days with such toxic people. They have tried to make your son their scapegoat just as you were made their scapegoat when you were a child. Honestly I would go no contact anyway now without any second thoughts. Do not let them make you both their whipping boys.

Block all e-mail communications/demands from them as well if that has not already happened.

Your son is extremely perceptive here. You would not tolerate any of this crap from a friend, family are no different.

I would suggest you read "Children of the Self Absorbed" written by Nina W Brown if you have not done so.

Neither you or your son need such toxic people; the best revenge here is to live well. You do not need their inheritance; they use such to obligate their victims further to them anyway.

ghome1971 · 29/06/2014 14:50

I feel that although cutting them out of my life will protect me from their abuse I also feel that the act is quite punitive. I am worried that I would be doing it to punish them too. I have written a draft letter and said that I would only move forward with the relationship if they attend counselling which of course they will not. However, I feel that if they do not agree then I will cut contact and feel justified in doing so as without the counselling their behaviour is too damaging for me and my family. I made some requests in the past through a Susan Forward confrontation letter eg not to call me names or undermine my parenting and the response from them was that love does not make demands. So I don't expect them to attend counselling but if they refuse then I feel justified to cut contact.

I have read Children of the Self Absorbed. It did help me understand their narcissism and my own but I remained trapped within trying to rid myself of my narcissism for over 18 months before I was able to build my self esteem after reading Nathaniel Brandons books.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 29/06/2014 16:40

"I feel that although cutting them out of my life will protect me from their abuse I also feel that the act is quite punitive"

Really?.

You think that because you are at heart a both nice, emotionally healthy and thus reasonable person but you are actually dealing with people who are neither nice nor at all reasonable. Self preservation in this case is not a punitive act here and your son will thank you for doing so as well in the long run. You will also do yourself a huge favour by going NC with them.

You still seem stuck somewhat in FOG - fear, obligation, guilt towards them.

Do not send any draft letter to them; anything that you send will be used against you and by turn your son. You are right in one respect; they will never attend any counselling sessions. This is because they feel they have done nothing wrong in the first place. You've already written to them previously and they turned around with some crass response. They did not apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Enough is enough. Line in the sand time now.

These people do not change but you can and must change how you react to them.

They done more than enough damage to both you and your son by now so going NC with them is fully justifiable. If a friend had done this you would no longer speak to them, its really no different for family members.

ghome1971 · 29/06/2014 18:12

Thanks. Oh Shit - do you really think I am still in the fog? I thought I was pretty much out of it. I don't need or seek their approval. I don't fear them. I suppose in light of the anniversary I do feel a little obligated. I still get the odd migraine (severe problem in the past) which I think are guilt related so might feel guilt a bit. Generally, the nasty dreams which include them have gone (with the exception of the one the other night that gave me the feeling to look at the land registry). So do I tell them I am NC or leave it? What about the rest of my family? There are a few cousins and one uncle I am fairly close to. As I won't be at the anniversary should I tell them why? Do I let them know I have seen the property deeds?

MozzchopsThirty · 30/06/2014 19:26

Is anyone here???
I'm steaming with fury over my mother, even though I've been NC since about March she has now started texting every few days accusing me of poisoning dd against her (she's 18 FFS I have about as much influence as a chocolate teapot)
And now demanding that I drive ds1 and ds2 to stay with her for a week in summer hols Shock

Hissy · 30/06/2014 19:33

Mozz ignore, ignore, ignore and then ignore some more!

Changing your number an option?

Lose the fury, that's what she wants. Remember that she can't make you do a single thing.

You're NC with her, she's going to chuck things at you that will deliberately touch a nerve to get you to engage with her.

Well, you don't have to.

NC doesn't work like that. :)

MozzchopsThirty · 30/06/2014 20:00

I'm worried she will apply to court for access to the ds's
It's the kind of thing she would do

Am I being mean not letting them go and stay with her?? She lives 3 hours away so can't really pop them over for a few hours

brannagirl · 30/06/2014 20:59

Hi, I'm not sure this is the right thread, but I'm sure you all can direct me if I'm wrong.
For the first part, my parents are both lovely. I have toxic grandparents on both sides. But the only one I want to deal with here is my maternal GM. My mum had an awful relationship with her, no need for details, their last contact is fairly typical; namely that my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer and my GM said she thought my mum was "making it up for attention". Charming woman. Alas she's nearly 90 now, but runs on bile and vinegar. My mum died, no card, nothing. I didn't contact her (she was never nice to me but not overly horrible-didn't like me as a child as she didn't do children, told me i was fat as a teenager, the usual), as I was so angry about the way she had treated my mum, and also I knew I'd lose it at her. But now I hear she's talking about me to family, about how I haven't contacted her, how I didn't send her a card at xmas and for bd. How selfish I am, essentially. My extended family is fractured and odd anyway, but I try to keep distant friendly relationships, but to hear people judging me (and delighting in it!) on the basis of what she's said makes me want to throttle the old bat.
Should I call, and rant, and then knowing her she'd get a heart attack out of spite and I'll def be the monster she wants to make me into, or just keep taking deep breaths and try to ignore my smug aunt, horrible cousin and various others who keep telling me to 'get over it' and "it's up to you to make the first move, she may die soon".

Hissy · 30/06/2014 21:26

Mozz we've said this to you before: she can apply for contact, but she'll have to have her application approved by a court before it's even looked at. She won't get past that. She hasZERO rights of contact. Don't even give a nanosecond's thought to it!

Hissy · 30/06/2014 21:28

If you don't believe me, google Grandparent Rights.

Nonexistent.

Relax! :)

Hissy · 30/06/2014 21:34

Brannagirl if people have the nerve to question you, tell them what your GM is like.

I'm not interested in an old woman who refused to support me or my mother as she was dying. The fact that she did die is proof to our dear GM that my mother was not 'making it all up for attention.' only the good die young, eh?

Then refuse to discuss her again, stating that you find the insistance on this point insulting and unwelcome.

And as for contact with those that believe her lies, good luck to them. Those that choose to believe her over you are fools, and we don't need fools in our lives. Leave them to it! :)

Practise that knowing smile and a nod.

Bottom line, YOU are right, the rest of them can ftfo. :)

MozzchopsThirty · 30/06/2014 21:44

Thanks hissy

I thought they did have rights to contact

I've blocked her number now so she can't text me or call me
She's been vicious tonight, never had this sort of behaviour before, it's always been 'poor me' 'boo hoo' 'I love you more than anyone ever could'
Now she's telling me I've got an attitude problem, I need a 'shrink', she's stalking me on FB and I'm controlling!!!!!!!

brannagirl · 30/06/2014 21:54

Thanks hissy, sometimes it's good to hear a sane perspective. My mum was the only female in the family that was helpful/ approximating normal to talk to. Listening to people sanctimoniously go on about "burying the hatchet" can make me doubt I'm in the right about this, but she was wrong and cruel to my mum and I will be glad when she eventually shuffles off, however horrible that makes me sound!
And the others know what she's like, they just enjoy the malice being sure other people are as miserable as them
My DP can't understand why he's only met my dad. I've tried to explain I'm doing him a favour...

Hissy · 30/06/2014 22:51

To you both:

Hold your respective nerves. You're (both doing the right thing.

:)

ghome1971 · 01/07/2014 09:08

Can anyone with NC experience tell me more. What do you do if you receive gifts? I presume you don't send birthday cards? What do you do if you receive email or letters? What about wider family occasion that your parents will attend? Do you tell your parents you are NC? Did you go NC during of after the FOG?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 01/07/2014 09:31

My family unit are NC with BIL.

We ignore each other studiously; no communication of any sort is done between us. I have found the whole thing liberating, my DH has found it painful but has accepted it and realises that his brother will not change.

Ignore any gifts, cards, letters etc that are sent; any gifts can be taken to the charity shop and cards can be shredded. There must be no acknowledgement from you.

This is from Lightshouse:-

"Also, listening to phone messages, failing to block NC parties on Facebook, Twitter, etc., and accepting cards, letters, emails and gifts is not considered to be no contact. If you are called on the phone, the instant you realize who it is, the phone should be hung up without comment. If a message is being left (or about to be left) on an answering machine while you are present, simply pick up the call and immediately hang up to break contact. Call blocking is a tremendous help, and is inexpensive or free. Contact your phone service provider for details of available plans.

Mail is thrown out unopened. Returning mail to the sender is stimulating and rewarding to toxic people, and they are encouraged by it. They typically respond to returned mail by sending even more, so don't return it. Gifts should also be given away/thrown away unopened as well, unless harassment charges/court proceedings may come up and you feel you may want the items as potential future evidence that you were not left alone. (It is better to save them and not need them than need them and not have them.) If you wish to save them but would be too tempted or upset by their presence, immediately give them to a trusted third party.

Block your email. If anything gets through, as soon as you recognize the sender, it should be deleted without being opened or read. (Again, the exception to the rule would be if you felt you may need it as evidence of unwanted contact, in which case, you could save it without opening it, provided you did not feel a personal safety issue might be involved). In such cases, you may wish to have a trusted third party read the messages for you and let you know only if they contain any threats made against you. The rest of any messages would not be relayed to you.

If you need to keep the emails and the temptation to read them would be strong, arrange to forward all unopened emails to a third party who is not in any way connected to the person you are NC with. (A trustworthy friend of many years from work or a dependable neighbour friend are examples.) Choose this person very carefully; it should be someone completely unconnected to the NC party (total strangers to them are best) and someone who is trusted and capable of holding the emails without losing them or otherwise putting them at risk carelessly.

Emails, letters, and phone calls from third parties should be treated similarly. The caller or sender should immediately be told that you will not discuss the matter with anyone, and that they are not to call about, write about, or raise the issue with you ever again.

The most common mistake made by people who are initiating no contact is allowing third party communication to leak through to them. Stop people immediately if they begin telling you anything, and let them know you'll no longer hear anything about people with whom you are NC. If the person refuses to respect your wishes, you may opt to limit contact with them as well.

Many people who have gone no contact from a toxic, destructive relationship feel it is the best thing they have ever done, and the first time they have felt freedom from manipulation, drama and other forms of emotional abuse".

I would reiterate what Hissy has written; grandparents have no automatic right of access in this country re their grandchildren.

Meerka · 01/07/2014 11:18

gifts? throw them away or charity shop them. Don't acknowledge them.

Wider family do's? now that is where it gets difficult.

If you go NC there is a chance that they'll make a fuss depending on what sort of people they are - some toxic people let others drop out of their lives without noticing, others hate to loose people they can torment and try to get them back, still others love the drama of the whole thing.

Unless you're 'lucky' enough to have the first sort of parents then at some point you're likely to have to face a showdown. Family occasions is a good one. Alternatively they might show up on the doorstep.

If a showdown is likely, then plan ways to handle it. Remain calm and neutral. A good bit of imitating a polished stone wall can help loads. They generally love it if they can provoke a reaction. The polished stone wall stops that.

If they turn up on the doorstep, follow attilla's advice and say that you don't wish to communicate with them and for them to leave you alone. Then shut the door.

Family do's are more awkward and depending on the nature of your Poisonous Toad, you could end up avoiding each other or you could end up with them making a blazing row. Sadly, you're left with the choice of either not going or going but being prepared for the row. Again, plan how to handle it, and make sure you don't go alone - and that your partner / friend is primed.

also, the Poisonous Toads might spread rumours about you or badmouth you. I'm afraid that unless their nature is generally known, there is nothing at all you can do about that :(

It's worth it though to be living in the fresh air of normal life, rather than the miasma of toxicity that the Toads give off.

mampam · 01/07/2014 15:31

I definitely agree with Meerka and Attila*. Going NC is hard at first but I can honestly say that it was the best thing I have ever done. I have been NC with my Mother, brother and step father for almost 4 years. In this time I have truly felt for the first time in my life, only what I can describe as, free. Free to be who I am, not who they want me to be.

My mother and step father do not try and contact me but they do send cards to the DC on birthdays and Christmas with money in them. They take the money and throw the cards away. 2 eldest DC are old enough to understand (14 & 11) and have the attitude of more fool them for sending the money. Youngest DC (4) has no clue who these people are, so I open the card, take the money (which I spend accordingly on her along with other birthday/Christmas money) and throw the card away. They do not reply.
The only time I have had to inadvertently make contact with them was when my mother & stepfather turned up outside DD1's school and tried to collar her as she was walking for the bus. They gave her a card which said things along the lines of "we love you and miss you" etc. I made sure I mentioned this to the right person and told them that if they ever did anything like this again then I would go to the police. They never did it again.

Family gatherings - these can be quite hard but I usually refuse or am not invited as I am now the black sheep of the family.

When I went NC with my mother, which subsequently led to brother going NC with me (best thing he ever did) they seemed to go out of their way to rally people around them - friends, other members of family, acquaintances. Like they were trying to prove to everyone just what lovely people they were, so it would seem so awful to these people that I wouldn't have anything to do with them.

This was one of the hardest things to deal with at first, people would say to me "why aren't you speaking to your mum, she's so lovely" etc.
I soon learnt that trying to explain why is a) trivial to these people and b) there are so many reasons/incidents that you do not have enough time to come across in the right way or do it justice on just one or 2 sentences, so I would just reply along the lines of "she may seem/be lovely to you but she never was to me. Just remember people don't always realise what goes on behind closed doors". This will usually stop people in their tracks.

Follow the advice to block calls and emails. You can also block people on FB too. There are people on FB who I know are in direct contact with my mother but I know if I block them then she will know why I've done it and I don't want to give her any encouragement, sense of victory or that I care (because I really do not but in her warped head this is how she will see it). I have removed these people from my news feed so I don't have to see pictures of them and her pop up, pics of family events or read status updates of people singing her praises as she has been so wonderful to them.

I cannot stress again just how wonderful it is to be NC with these toxic people. I am currently pg with DC No4. I tend to have awful pregnancies and this is the first pregnancy where I have not had my evil mother preying on me when I am at my most vulnerable. I'm suffering quite badly with HG and although I feel really awful I know it would be 100x worse if she was still in my life.

Echoing what Hissy says "hold your nerve" Smile

ghome1971 · 02/07/2014 10:42

Thanks. What about when they become ill or die? I feel scared. What if I am going NC to punish them through my own narcissism?