"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's almost May 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

although did start to cry, saying it was beautiful...

Oh FFS, how pathetic. Cos you are such a bitch and would leave her without any kind of human kindness ordinarily...

Just a thought.... to stave off potential issues, you may be better to leave the gift exchange till till AFTER nursery, or you'll get some huge gift she will NEED to take to nursery with her. Cue Potential Tantrum (from child.. although...)/Over reaction from your mother

"although did start to cry, saying it was beautiful..."

More manipulation GoodtoBetter from your narcissistic mother.

I think she is still buttering up to do something really nasty to you.

Love the naming of fruits. Did she notice at all? I mentioned up thread about an ex friend of mine, who in hind sight was a narc. I remember one time visiting her and secretly timing how long it would be before she stopped for breath and asked me how I was. It was a loooong time.

I was young and naive at the time. I thought she was genuinely very giving and helpful. I eventually realised that there were strings to everything she did for other people. The last phone call I had from her whilst I was breaking contact, she said I a really childlike voice (grown woman here) 'have I done anything wrong?' of course I said no but I never called her again. Emotional vampire.

Also love the fruit naming! I used to work with a narc ages ago, who would have entire conversations with herself. I timed her once, and she talked for 18 minutes without a word from anyone else and she didn't even notice! That was normal for her! 18 MINUTES!!

Its the game playing here isnt it? That's the theme. I'm slowly beginning to pick it up. Like pps dm starting to cry and saying its beautiful. Deeds with strings attached, saying one thing meaning another. Nothing is straight up. So you always have to think 'what's your angle?'

That's my feeling too atilla,

Good2B: she's miffed and was mightily put out about you having the nerve to go to the beach, she's made comments about coping, and birthday, and she was irritated on an occasion before this weekend as a result.

Come here so I can hurt you again.

Detach like fuck detach.

A klaxon might be sounding in your instincts atm, listen hard for it and listen to it!

Xx

only and dirty - I get confused on the 'normal' thing. I'm now so baffled about the relationship I have with DM it's made me question so much - I posted on here a while back, but I am genuinely unsure as to whether my thoughts, beliefs and attitudes are because of her, or because of me. And my DH had a 'normal' upbringing with a purely loving family and he is like only's DH - sees the good, doesn't get bogged down in negativity and again, I'm genuinely baffled by how someone can be chirpy like that. I think it's because I've been brought up with DM's constant need for reassurance, drama, dissatisfaction, martyrness etc that it had previously dawned on me that I think of nice, happy people are naive and weak, like they don't really know what the real world is like... But actually that is the real world - nice and happy.

And I had love and affection but as time's gone on I've realised that even that love and affection is about how it made her feel, not how it made me feel, if that makes sense. I sometimes catch myself asking DD for a kiss or a cuddle when she might be doing something else and realise that I'm doing it because I want one, not because she wants one... Need to stop that and be more two-way about it.

mozzy that letter got me. I was reading it thinking that it would turn me into a guilt-ridden wreck and that DM was reasonable and it was me who was being stupid/OTT. I'm so so glad the others came on and posted the perspective that actually it was all her her her - I had kind of failed to notice that guess I'm well trained as Atilla would say

GTB - sounds like quite a performance your DM put on and sounds like you did more than enough. Hope you had fun at the beach. We have a beach here, but it's too close to everything - am thinking Fiji would just about be the right place for me for a few weeks. We had a great holiday there when we were living in Oz - such an amazing time.

Things with me are ok. I'm pregnant (10 weeks left) and grumpy but ok other than that! I'm trying to do the 100 happy days thing on FB - by god it's hard to think of something every day!! Have really scraped the barrel a couple of times and am no doubt boring the pants off my FB friends!!!

Things with DM, well, she pissed me off a bit last week on a couple of small things that I won't list here, but just showed - again - how everything is about her. I'm still saddened that I constantly see the bad in her now, I wish she was happier in herself and easier to deal with because actually that would allay some of the desperation she has to be liked/loved.

In terms of her and DSDad, they went to counselling last week and as I suspected DM is taking no responsiblity for the state of their relationship, it's all DSDad's fault for being so cruel by using the Divorce word and she's not going back for this week's session as apparently it's DSDad who wanted counselling, not her. What I've realised is that it's a family meal that night so it's probably more that why she's not going (opportunity for The Margaret Show) but more dramatic to say that she's not going because it's him he wanted it. These sessions aren't set in stone anyway are they? It's not like a regular weekly bootcamp is it? Surely you just book them in for when it suits. I just said - oh well, it's probably good for you both to have someone to talk to individually too, you should probably go alone at some point too. I will not get pulled in to it being about all DSDad's fault. I've been through parental divorce once already and whilst it was relatively amicable, it was still painful and as the years have gone on there has been some political game-playing (mostly by DM) and I can't unhear some of the things she's said, so don't wish to be part of that again.

Talking to some friends about the whole divorce thing and said that if DH asked me for one out of the apparent blue, the first thing I'd be asking is "how did we get to this point? Where are we going wrong?" Not "you're so spiteful and cruel". Amazing how these people have the ability to make everything about them yet deflect so much too. It's quite an art form.

Hi nearlyready,

re your comment:-

"I'm genuinely baffled by how someone can be chirpy like that. I think it's because I've been brought up with DM's constant need for reassurance, drama, dissatisfaction, martyrness etc that it had previously dawned on me that I think of nice, happy people are naive and weak, like they don't really know what the real world is like... But actually that is the real world - nice and happy".

Your second sentence hits the nail on the head.

People like my narc MIL will help people like her sister but its all conditional and whether if it suits her to do so. This "help is also provided on a basis of what is good for her in terms of image; she is very much an, "oh aren't I a good person?". (She used to say that self same thing to her dad). Her sister and I do not get taken in by her but others think she's fab.

You would like to think that she has a desperation to be liked and loved but that does not apply to narcissists; they have made the terrible choice not to love.

Narcissists are generally contemptuous of others. This seems to spring, at base, from their general lack of empathy, and it comes out as (at best) a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. It is also connected to their overall negative outlook on life.

I would also think that your mother is having a right old pop at your stepdad in their marriage counselling/character assassination of said stepdad. Narcissistic women do not put up with husbands who stand up to them for very long; they either enable or are out on their ear. Narcissists simply cannot maintain healthy functional relationships.
Given all that, its not altogether surprising that their own relationship is in such a parlous state. I would stay well out of it for your sake.

I wish you the very best with the rest of your pregnancy.

a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings

^ This is how I felt growing up. Completely frustrated and trapped in a box whereby my feelings didn't count, yet hers had to be everyone else's main priority. I read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen And Listen So Kids Will Talk and am now really concious that if my 2yo is kicking up a fuss, it's because she needs something^ and that it's my job to listen to her and help her figure out what it is and then decide if it's reasonable that she should have/get it. It is not my job to simply shut her down. That book, IMO, is a great guide for communication between anyone really, not just parents and children.

others think she's fab

^^ This too. My DBro said he was explaining some stuff about DM to his gf and she was really surprised and said "I just can't see it". I think however, DM texting her over the divorce saga may well have opened her eyes a little though!

I think you're right re DSDad enabling her over the years and now he just can't. I think DM has pushed him too far and he's now saying that he can't go on. Which of course makes him the baddie.

Thank you for your kind wishes. I just need the rest of my house to get decorated and find out what my redunancy package might look like (and then decide whether to take it or not) and then I hope this grump will shift. I need to relax and can't at the mo. Luckily this thread has really helped me over the past 6-12 months or so in terms of dealing with DM and getting used to my new awareness of her character, so thank you again

Italic fail there.............

nearly I think our mothers sound very similar:
I've been brought up with DM's constant need for reassurance, drama, dissatisfaction, martyrness etc

And I had love and affection but as time's gone on I've realised that even that love and affection is about how it made her feel, not how it made me feel, if that makes sense.

and this too, I could have written: I'm still saddened that I constantly see the bad in her now, I wish she was happier in herself and easier to deal with because actually that would allay some of the desperation she has to be liked/loved. It drives you away, all the whining and complaining and neediness, doesn't it?

Hope the rest of your pregnancy goes smoothly, do you know the sex? How old is your DD?

xx

It does drive people away, me included. Thing is, DM doesn't position it as whining or negativity - she positions it as an intelligent response. I've lost count of the times she's regaled a situation and I've either said or thought "I've never thought of it like that" and then got sucked in to her way of thinking. Manipulation I guess - very very subtle stuff, but very very hard to catch her out on it not that I'm brave enough anyway but I am getting better at recognising it and working hard to free myself from it.

Thank you . DD is nearly 2y5m She's great, really chatty and tells me the most ludicrous made up stuff, her little head is funny. She knows how to make DH and I laugh and has done since she was tiny which I find incredible. I was more tempted to find out the sex this time (we didn't with DD either) but I think as much as I'll be happy with 2 girls or one of each, as this will likely be our last baby I think I'd be sad if I knew now that I'd never have a boy... Whereas once the baby is born I'll just love him/her and gender will become irrelevant - if that makes any sense at all. So in short, no we don't know the sex!

Attila, the cramps lessened after I had children. The cycle was still different, anywhere from four to six weeks. I did not have a four week regular cycle until after I had my third at the age of 46. The PCOS and endometriosis must have been awful for you. Have you been able to find reliable/accurate treatment (or fully recover, if that's possible)? My good sister suffered endometriosis and ended up getting a hysterectomy.

GoodToBetter, I agree that your mother's emotional display was an act and had the same thought Hissy did. (Reminded me of Bill Clinton mourning at Normandy and glancing over to the cameras to check that they caught the tears!) It may be impossible to get an authentic transaction from/with her.

I'll come back to read your posts NearlyReady. I have tons of yard work to do and need to get to it before it heats up too bad here (I'm in states/VA).

band lucky you with some heat! Thunder and a tropical 13 degrees!!

I have booked my first counselling session but it's not for 2 weeks. I kind of wonder if I'll make it that far. Also, I worry that it won't work? Why should it, I just don't understand how talking can help - although I know all the theory behind it.

I've gone back on anti depressants. I made th mistake (again) of coming off them when I ran out. We moved a few months ago and I wasn't organised. I felt great for the first month. Then a BIG BIG dip, sort of comin up a bit but feel a bit desperate. Its all tied in with realising dh's family are toxic and that kicking off and that triggering the realisation that my df is a narc/or narc tendencies. When I'm like this, I think it will never change, how can it? This is how I am.

NearlyReady, I love that book (How to Talk so Kids Will Listen...) and found it very helpful. I think its foundation is one of respect, and acknowledging that the child exists, iykwim (and I think most people here do ).

My parents did not divorce (and have long since passed on) so I can not being to imagine what you are going through/feeling. But the dynamic of the Narc...it is not going to be pretty, is it? I hope you can remain detached and not become (any more than usual) an emotional toilet for your mother's drama. I suspect the emotional role your dad played will need to be recast and Imho, there is little doubt you will be the first port of call.

Your present boundaries are doing great. But as the divorce proceeds, you may need to keep evolving them. Alot.

91 degrees F (32.77 C) here today Lowish humidity (43%) so not too too bad for about 5 min

DirtyPaws the anti depressants take some time as you probably already know (I do not mean to sound patronising). My dh has been on them for donkey years as well as my son (21) and my dd(19-and she has been through hell with them). Anyway, dh sees it as a scientific circumstance of chemical balance in the brain...some people need the meds, and he doesn't think he will ever come off them.

Be patient. It can change. The discovery process can be shocking. Give yourself time to think about it (and journal-will help prepare for the counselling sessions). But also, just as important, imho, is to give yourself permission and time to NOT think about it and do something nice for yourself.

I do not think this is how you are...this is how they are. Take care.

dirty I would echo the sentiment that it's them, not you. But I know how easy it is to feel like it is you. I had a snippy text from a friend over something at the same time I was having a bad patch with DM and was convinced it was just me. That I'm difficult, obnoxious, opinionated etc. I still struggle with this tbh - I've always found 1-1 situations difficult, can't take compliments and have always been surprised that I've generally been well-liked. I hope the ADs kick in soon and that you manage to keep peacefully busy in a happy way with no drama on the run up to your counselling session. I've found posting on here a great source of comfort and therapy, so stay with us. I tend to disappear at times when things are calm, but it's nice to be able to pop back.

band - thank you for the support. No idea if the divorce will actually happen or not, and I do plan to stay well away. Jealous of your weather - I'm craving foreign stuff - food, smells, sounds, words, sights, temperature. I've always loved travel though we don't get away as much as I'd like right now. Maybe I will take redundancy at work and head off backpacking with DH and the kids - would love to really do this one day - think a newborn might be a bit on the young side though

I had a rather shameful episode of preggo rage earlier. It reminded me of DM's rages when we were younger and I feel dreadful because of that. However, the upside is that it did get DH do put his work stuff away instead of it being sprawled around the house rather than being in his work van or in the shed. Also bought some more maternity clothes as was just feeling shitty in the tatty stuff I'd been wearing and that has made me feel a little better too. I had a cake too and that was good.

Hope the sun is shining wherever you all are. It's a lovely spring day here so hope that will lift my preggo grump .

Can anyone tell me if it's OK not to actually like your mother very much? I'm going through a low patch ATM so may not be processing things clearly, but she can be such an opinionated bigot at times.

I was never really close to her growing up, what she said went and that was that. It was my dad who would listen and help (still does).
Does anyone else feel like this?

I've finally bitten the bullet and joined this discussion, as linked to by a friend many months ago.

I felt ashamed and guilty for admitting what Mum has done to me over the years. As it's not been physical or sexual abuse, but a long long campaign of continued mental anguish and making me totally dependant on her.

This guilt is because it's mainly subconscious due to her own issues and a lifetime of sexual/emotional/physical abuse. A need to be the child at the centre of attention. Even at the expense of me, the scapegoat child.

I'm 6 months pregnant with my first child, and she has made it a nightmare.

I used to want her to be at the birth but now I doubt I'll even inform her when I go into labour. I do not and can not handle her being there.

She has most of the family thinking I'm the bad one for causing her stress/suicidal episodes and has done this gradually and so cleverly over the years that I can't even blame them for thinking it as I probably would if it were such small instances over such a long period of time.

I feel sad about this, but I'm continually more and more focused on my child and my partner, who is 100% supportive and knows everything about my mother.

Magnoliawalls - it is completely ok not to like your mother. You are only human and if someone is bigoted, cruel or selfish then why would you like them? We are given the message of 'honour your parents' and to love them no matter what, but this is the guilt talking. It is necessary to have healthy boundaries and protect yourself from harm, just because someone gavde birth to you, does not mean that you ahave to like wbo they are as a person. I spent most of my life not liking my mother and feeling guilty because of it, but by posting on here you are making baby steps towards removing that guilt and looking after yourself. It might help you to read some of the articles which are linked at the beginning of this thread.

Sylvia - welcome and well done on your first post. Many of us here can identify with much of what you have written and it sounds like you are doing the healthy thing by beginning to focus on life with your partner and future baby. Keep posting and you will find lots of helpful advice and support here.

Hello :)

Just popping back! Thank you for all the 'Congratulations' on our marriage, reall means alot

Whilst just having a quick glance i saw this and it really stood out for me regarding my MIL:

People like my narc MIL will help people like her sister but its all conditional and whether if it suits her to do so. This "help is also provided on a basis of what is good for her in terms of image; she is very much an, "oh aren't I a good person?". (She used to say that self same thing to her dad). Her sister and I do not get taken in by her but others think she's fab.

My MIL did this. I couldn't get my head around how she would be so lovely and helpful to one person and treat her DS and DGC so crap.

I have a bit of an update and a few questions i need help with. Will have a catch up on the thread once DD is fast asleep :)

I can't help but comment on 'your' letter Mozzy!
Considering it was written to you, she has just spoken about herself throughout the whole letter!

What a massive pile of crap.
Its just a whole Guilt Tripping, Blackmailing pile of crap.
It was very eye opening though, Your DM has quoted my MIL alot.
She has been treated so badly by you
No signs of sorry, she's just tried to make you feel so guilty. My MIL did this alot, and before i came on here it used to work. Now i see everything with a clear head so i hope you have seen what that letter was actually about. Her trying to make out you're the bad person! Which you're not. Obviously :)

Meeka Congrats on your baby! Hope you are both doing well :)

My Husband and I are doing well. We havn't heard off MIL for almost 1 whole month. We heard from her about a week before the wedding and She didn't like the answer she got.
It's abit un-nerving now. It's just gone quiet, kinda like she is somehow punishing us? We would get alot of 'memememe' texts and now because she wasn't invited to the wedding it feels like she is waiting for an apology? I hope that makes sense.

Is it normal for Toxic/Narc people to actually leave people alone? Or are they usually plotting something else?

The other thing is. When my DD1 was my DD2s age now (9 months) we was still really under MIL's 'power' we was pandering to her etc. DH had been putting her above our DD1 and myself, purely because it was easier (i know that) and he felt like he had too..

It's become really real to me now and i feel really angry with my DH for doing it, it's abit of a delayed reaction, its been over 4 years FGS!

I'm so happy now and i remember how ill, anxious, depressed and just..dead i felt back then and he wasn't fighting my corner, he wasn't on my side, he was just concered about her.

How do i make peace with it? I would much rather not talk to him about it as it was so long ago, i hate dragging up the past.

I know why he did it, but that doesn't make me feel any better.

Hi Mommybird

Re this part of your comment:-

"Is it normal for Toxic/Narc people to actually leave people alone? Or are they usually plotting something else?"

Short answer to that is plotting; I very much doubt she will actually
leave you alone. You need to remain vigilant.

With regards to your other question I would consider talking to a counsellor (not just any old one mind you, someone who fits in with your approach and also has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment) if you cannot currently bring yourself to talking to your DH about this matter. I think at some stage though it will have to be addressed directly.

I thought asmuch
Any idea on what it will most likely be?
Its a big thing not being invited to your own sons wedding so i imagine it will be the worst thing yet.
Either an illness or, i really hope it isn't this, maybe court for access to the DDs.
Its very unusual that we have heard nothing from her. Not even a peep!

There are no special occasions coming apart my birthday, which is no use to her. Its my DHs birthday in 3 months aswell as DD2s 1st birthday. I cant see her waiting that long tbh...

sigh

I might have a chat with DH in the next few days.
Ive been feeling anxious wich is showing, he knows somethings not right.
I thought not hearing from her would be fabulous, how wrong was i!?

It seems I should stay on this thread as maybe some of your stories can help me and dh & remind me of why not to get back into contact with inlaws again.

Again mil has been calling, it is now getting worse, at least 3 missed calls a day, sometimes more and these are to all of our phones.

The simple answer would be to change numbers but with so many people that contact us it really isn't an option although it might have to be soon as I'm starting to feel harassed and dh is starting to get his moods back again.
I despair I really do