Not had sex for almost two years

[Olliedelondon]

I very much love my DW. Before we had our two children, we had a reasonable sex life, although I would always initiate. But since our children we have had very little sex (once every four months maybe) and nothing at all for now almost two years. My DW says that I am unreasonable in my 'needs' and that I should focus all my attentions on looking after the children. But I think it's destroying our marriage and I'm not prepared to sacrifice a sex life and frankly don't see why I should. I also don't think she fancies me. At all. Am I unreasonable? What should I do? I have 'got by' by using pornography in secret. I have also started fantasising about attractive colleagues, although I have never had an affair. The sexual frustration I feel is almost painful...Help?

Op hope you got some good advice from here.

Thinking about it dark I'm not sure it's accurate re men and women posting about sexless relationships. Keepithidden is a male poster who really has a very similar story to you and a very similar approach although I don't think it has gone on as long and he hasn't had an affair. I wish you would both leave and find happiness alone or with someone else! Not all male posters who post here about sexless relationships are embellishers I think...

Thanks Red!

I don't think Darkest and my situation are comparable, she has experienced far worse than me and I do receive physical affection from DW despite it being predominantly sexless (single figures over 5/6 years, though that did result in 2 DCs). Something that I don't believe Darkest does. I know DW does try and make an effort on that aspect of our relationship (although I don't know the motivation) and to be fair my own insecurities make the issue far more foggy than it probably is. Something I'm conitnuing to work on for both myself and my family.

It is interesting though, on my last two threads on MN relationships I did get quite a different response from the regulars. That may have been more to do with writing style than anything else. Maybe it is the OPs style, rather than gender that has polarised the responses?

Even more interesting is the response I got on the MN FWR board when I questioned a certain aspect of DWs behaviour! It was very supportive and certainly helped with my own assessment of the situation without being (too) judgemental.

This is why MN has been so useful to me.

Offred - I never embellished my sexless relationship either. The last 4 years were totally without sex. Affection was literally a peck on the cheek at night. It took me that long to realize I had to leave after numerous attempts to solve the problem. I did not have an affair.

To be fair to the OP he does say almost two years, which is not a huge stretch from 18 months. I don't think he's embellishing and is getting 'some' sex rather than none.

I repeat my earlier posting, this thread has become focused solely on the sexual aspect - especially the last 3 pages which I don't think are of any real help to the OP or anyone else in his shoes (male OR female). And while the thread title says sex the postings are clearly not just about sex but intimacy and affection.

Quoting 22Honey:
"I thought it was common for a woman to never orgasm? It seems very common for women to be totally apathetic about sex...thought it was also well known many women never masturbate....

"... I have read several times in different places (magazines, online etc) that many women never masturbate and have never had an orgasm...

"...Offred I orgasm through penetration, and it often (especially during this pregnancy!) happens too easily and quickly for my liking! I can also orgasm through the clitoris aswell, but presumed it wasn't that uncommon to orgasm through penetration? Am I a freak of nature? :O..."

22Honey, the above posts of yours are the reason I directed you to that thread and suggested you must be young or naive. Because you asked directly if your own experience was typical and you don’t seem to know much about other women’s experience of sex besides what you have read in magazines.

I would not recommend women’s magazines as a good source of education about sex. They like headlines rather than facts. Any statistics they quote should be viewed with suspicion as they were likely sourced from a specially selected atypical group in order to generate a headline-grabbing “factoid”.

The fact that you do not seem to know this, in addition to your question "Am I a freak of nature?", led me to conclude that you are young or naive and direct you to a thread which might give you some idea of other women’s experiences (not that I recommend Mumsnet as a source of education, simply because we are on Mumsnet right now). I apologise if my comment was tactless or offensive and happily retract it.

The G spot is a myth??

I do think this thread is very telling. It is true, most posters would be up in arms if a woman was asked what she does to please her husband to make him want sex. There was a long thread recently with women discussing their husbands lack of sex drive and the replies were nothing but sympathetic. People understood just how soul destroying it must be and not once did anyone suggest they were bad in bed or not doing enough to make their husbands feel special.

We talk here all the time about women getting the bad end of stick in society but I have seen men here get treated like crap when they ask for advice and it is pretty much always turned around to them being arseholes.

It seems to me like the OP's wife either doesn't like sex and has issues with it or she is no longer attracted to him (sorry OP) either way it is unfair of her to not talk about it and just expect him to deal with it. In my marriage it would be a deal breaker. I often have a very low sex drive as do my husband but when it is bothering us we talk about it and try to get it back on track. The OP's wife's lack of communication about it doesn't bode well imo. She recoils when he goes to hold her hand? this problem goes a lot deeper than him not doing enough housework or making her feel 'special enough' It took two weeks for her to want sex with him when they married.. how anyone can turn this around on the OP and make it his fault is beyond me.

I agree Samu that if does sound as if the wife has a problem with sex, which led me to question how they got together in the first place. But as he has been her only lover, it could equally be that she only has a problem with sex with him.

Ollie is already blaming his wife enough for all of us. We cannot tell his wife what to do to fix things, as she has not posted on this thread. We can only advise him on what would make one of us feel more inclined to have sex with our partners. Presumably he posted on Mumsnet because he wanted the perspective of mums?

Threads are not comparable though. In the other thread were all the circs the same? I doubt it. We've already had one poster misquoting selected info from another thread in a really misleading way

He's being criticised by me because he's her first lover and he says he's only given her one orgasm in 8 years but is putting all of the blame on her for their sex life (and now intimacy) being unsatisfying and miserable. He thinks everything he is doing is reasonable and if she doesn't like it it is her fault. He is not being criticised by me for being male but for his attitude. With that attitude and the length of time it's gone on I think it is not likely to be rescuable.

What is this stuff about the OP not 'performing' or 'giving' his wife orgasms? He isn't a circus animal!! Sex is supposed to be something a couple does together for their mutual satisfaction, not the man's responsibility to perform whilst the wife is completely passive. His inability to 'perform' is as much down to her as it is to him. It is pretty difficult to do your act if the audience has turned their back, stuck their fingers in their ears and starts humming la, la la. When did women start being so passive?

This is unlikely to be about this sexual prowess because it doesn't seem like she was ever that keen. If she didn't like his style but she still found him attractive she has plenty of opportunity to do something about it but it doesn't seem like she has taken that. This is about a failure of communication. The OP has tried to talk to her it seems and all he gets is half truths or ignored.

And as for saying he doesn't have to work 60 hour weeks - he has his own business, I doubt if he has the choice. If he cuts back the business will suffer and that will leave them in a bigger mess than they are already in. I think that is a bit naive to think that him working more in the home and less in the office is the answer. There is no indication that the OP's wife would appreciate any more time with him.

I appear to be sounding like the OP's cheer leading team but I do think he is being given a bit of a rough deal just because he happens to be a man.

Ollie, I hope you were able to speak to your wife and open up a line of communication at the very least.

And yes Samu of course the g spot is a myth it makes logical sense that the vagina would be quite insensitive doesn't it? No-one has ever found anatomical evidence of a structure in the vagina that can produce an orgasm. As darkest and others said clitoral nerve endings extend beyond the visible external part but how much of a role they play in pleasure is unknown and may be different for different individuals.

So by that logic big the wife's lack of orgasms from her partner are her fault as are his lack of orgasms from her?

We don't know that she doesn't like sex.

Yes the communication is bad, the sex seems bad.

My point was more that from his posts - he set up new business, he thinks it is a better investment, she just seems to look after the children - she sounds like a backseat passenger in their life due to his choices which must be tough if you used to be sociable and have a high flying city career. Also their youngest is 9 months and she had a difficult birth, expecting sex might be a bit too much just yet. And yes the posting is about sex because that's what he's bothered about. She may well have withdrawn affection because she doesn't want to feel bullied into sex.

Anyway, what he is owed is honest communication but if he doesn't get it he needs to take some action either forcing the counselling issue or leaving.

This thread had me last night but I was too tired to formulate a response.

22Honey - seriously, you gave no idea what you're talking about. I don't want your bubble to burst but you are not the only woman on earth who has sexual feelings, can orgasm and enjoy sex. Sorry love, you're just not that special.

I also think those saying it's sexist as we wouldn't give a woman the same responses if she were posting are wrong. I agree that claiming he mustn't be good enough etc is a bit off but outside of that it's not comparible.

If a woman said her husband hadn't wanted any sex in two years but during that 2 years his genitals and other sexual organs had gone through some kind of trauma whilst he was also solely responsible for the care of two babies do you think we would honestly say he was being unreasonable. I don't think so.

The fact that she won't show him any affection is sad but a classic symptom of sex avoidance. She won't let him kiss her because the minute she shows any affection he will assume it will lead to sex so it's easier to withdraw all affection. It's not right but it's genuine and normal in these circumstances.

I find what people write online here absolutely ridiculous.

First of all, how can you become this blaming couple when things go pete tong ? Plus, how can you sleep with someone on the first go or very early on in the relationship without actually building up the trust and getting to know them ? i.e. emotional intimacies, and affections, and commonalities ? Also, how can people not realise it of themselves when they are on the rebound and is actually finding a new person to wipe the slate clean from a previous relationship (which means that you won't ever move on) ! How can people also dump others and not learn about themselves or about the other person just because they did not tick a certain box. They are still as human as you are. How can the OP write such ridiculous line as "she is a good mother, but a bad wife", and for him to dissect the difference and the duties of a wife to that of a mother ? She is still the same person, and will be both, but he treats her as one and not the other. Has he ever talked to her and gotten to know her as a person ? It means there is a big red flag here to begin with.

When I was younger, I dumped my ex already when he saw me as a demure baby machine being SE Asian and all that. He wanted a person to deliver a baby boy to him. I saw it a mile coming, and I ran away. Cos I wanted him to see me as a person with feelings. I also was not ready to give a baby to him. To me, that is decency. I cannot understand and phantom why others say that they are in an actual relationship or a marriage when in reality, it is hardly a steady relationship (but sits on hope and rocky foundations), and also on a lot of edgy risk. People seems to be putting a lot of "get out clauses" here and there, without actually reflecting on their own decisions and learn from the lesson and then do things better.

How can people say that they are in a marriage and did not consummate the marriage, this or that or the other, when it seems to me that the husband hardly knows what makes the wife tick ? What is her personality, and what does she prefers as intimacy. What does she like, and what are her preferences. All this "must do" and all these "expectation" and all this "she was intelligent, here and then, and when I dated her"...

To me it sounds all so much like a throwaway culture. "If this does not fit my mould then..."

Wow! You must be incredibly self aware Maisie!

I've made dozens of the errors you've thoughtfully listed, many of them I've learnt from, many I haven't. Most of my partners follow a similar mould too. We are after all only human.

I also do not understand other people's comment about the business aspect. Whatever happened to family planning ? Things which affect a family life. Do men think that family life also grow on trees ? If one of your partner is about to drop the ball in this kind of balance, is he and should he just focus on the job aspect and not think about the other aspect too ? If there had been serious communication between the couple, then each decision which affect the couple can be seen clearly, why would the above situation occur to begin with ? It is obvious that in this instance, this is not the case.

I also do not understand the lack of siding and sympathies from other posters on encouraging others to support the couple, than to also place "blame". If one party is dropping the ball, then shouldn't the support be where the downfall is and to find a better solution to make the situation better ?

I remember my mother truly bollocking my brother and my sister-in-law for juggling too much in their lives and neglecting my nephew. So bloomin darn right. Do not call yourself a family if you cannot afford the time or the attention to be in one. How can you call a relationship a relationship when you do not even know what your partner is like and what he or she is capable of ? Also, why learn the lesson and other ex-partners' preferences and only to place those expectation on the new person ? It spells "I have not let go". You learnt so much about someone else, and you assume that a new person can and will fit the mould. Unfortunately people are individuals, and not past ghosts. It takes a while for someone to settle into a new relationship and routine and to remember, and understand what the other person is like. If you do not know who our partner is, and how best to bring out in each other, then why are you in a relationship ? It isn't one. If you do not act like a team, then how can you tackle life's challenges ? It is foolish to think otherwise that you could.

Keepithidden To be honest, I cannot say that I am great at this either, cos it took some ass-kicking from my friend recently to shake my focus again. Some of the things I wrote here seems to be so normal and was indeed my approach when I was younger til I lost my plot, but the obvious should still count, right ?

And on the note about sexuality and self expression. Well, I am surprised that some of the guys here are so honest and open about that. Though, one thing which stand out in my eyes are, how come people do not find this aspect of themselves and then to bring it into their own relationship ? If body mechanics is a problem, go and learn how your body moves. Learn to dance darn it. Whatever makes one know how to make things work. What did people do in their 20s ? Sit and hope a perfect relationship drop from the sky ?? I do not get this blame shifting.

I know that femininity is suppressed and well and truly nailed in the coffin in this country, but still, if one wants to save their own marriage or their own relationship, then go and read the karma sutra or something. It is not rocket science. Gazillion couples and people had been there, done that many a times in the past. If you do not even know your own sexual self, then why even complain about someone else? Isn't it a case of the blind leading the blind ?

No it isn't all her fault that is what I am saying. Sex is something they do together. They both have to take some responsibility for that. If he's doing it all wrong she should be saying. If she rather he didn't do it at all, she should be saying. She isn't. They have a shared responsibility to keep their marriage alive and well, for their sake and their children and it isn't his wife that is posting here is it? It is the OP. She seems happy to just let things drift but they can't.

Where do you get the idea the business was all his choice? It doesn't say that anywhere. Maybe she encouraged him in that, thought it would be a good joint venture and she would be able to help out when the children were older. She may have hated the idea of course but you don't know that. Why are you so intent on thinking the wife has nothing to do with anything that happens in their lives and that all she can cope with is looking after 2 small children. Take that view to a SAHM/WOHM debates and see where it takes you.

I was a SAHM married to a man who had to work 60 hours a week setting up his own business. As resentful as that sometimes made me, and believe me we have had our moments, it isn't all his fault if our marriage went down the pan. I would have to take some responsibility for it too and a responsibility to communicate with him about our relationship.

She won't let him kiss her because the minute she shows any affection he will assume it will lead to sex so it's easier to withdraw all affection.

See again, how about it is her assuming he will want sex when actually he is just offering affection? Why so intent on painting him some sort of predatory male with nothing on his mind except sex? Yes, the thread is about their sex lives but it has also become clear that what he would like is just some sign of affection to know he isn't wasting his time and she actually does like him. If you wanted to make this about what she might be feeling rather than what is actually going on you would have been better saying ' She thinks that if she lets him kiss, he'll want sex...' That I get. You are stating it as a bald fact about what is happening.

I think the OP is getting picked on for badly expressed thoughts. Yes, saying she's "in this way, a rubbish wife" isn't great, but he was talking about the lack of any intimacy, not just sex. Whilst his choice of phrase isn't ideal, the meaning is pretty clear is it not?

There's been a lot of nitpicking on this thread with what the OP has said, attempting to put him in as bad a light as possible. This isn't AIBU, and it would be good if (some) people could be a bit more charitable.

Exactly, Whatsthatcoming.......assuming you aren't including me on the uncharitable side of this.

Bigboobiesbertha Sorry, I did not state that I thought the business was all his idea, but it was someone else who suggested that the business is a must and that he must keep this for absolute certainty. I think it was a male poster somewhere. So I was trying to redress that balance by giving another perspective and how a business decision can also impact family life. Which it does. I cannot understand why a couple cannot reduce this aspect or remove areas which affects them if it means dragging them both down. How does that work ? If they let other factors to affect themselves, then they may as well divorce now and let things fall apart further. The equation truly does not balance.

I think the posts about poor sex lives portray the very opposite from a throwaway culture tbh. We see men and women flogging that dead relationship horse for years longer than they should, putting in time and effort when there is no longer any love or compatibility because they are too scared to leave or worry about the dc going through divorce or think their problem isn't important enough to end a LTR/marriage over. Doesn't really come across as people generally giving up easily. I did 6 years of crap sex and crap communication (yes they frequently go together) I stayed about 1 year longer than I should. I think I've learned something from all my relationships tbh but I can say it's only the last few years I've come to realise sexism is behind the crap sex I've had in the past - my own and some of my partner's sexist beliefs about sex, and communication actually.

It is interesting that the assumption lots of people are making is that the wife on this thread is asexual and being dishonest about it (possibly having now achieved her 'biological need') despite it being very unlikely to be true and despite there being evidence that sex has been unsatisfying for her.

It is far more likely statistically that she is just unsatisfied by sex, may not realise sex can be better and is still recovering from what he said was a difficult birth 9 months ago. Reading into it, either by him or people on here that she is a manipulative asexual baby stealer because that is 'common' for women according to Cosmo or whatever is crazy.

And I do think there's an issue with his work. There was no we set up the business, we thought my time is better invested in the business, it was all about how he had done it and what he thought about it. What does she think about the business? Could she not work in the business for some of the hours? Why isn't he making these decisions with her?

Also the stuff about she won't have sex so I have got by by replacing her with porn? Not helpful and shows a dubious attitude IMO.

Have we really ever seen a thread posted by a female poster which was comparable to this one? A woman who decided she would set up business, decided her effort would be better spent there, left her h at home looking after the small dc after having had (like pp said) genital mutilating serious surgery 9 months ago from which he was still recovering and who was apparently to blame for his own failure to orgasm more than once in 8 years because he could sort himself out and should convince his partner to pleasure him but was also to blame for failing to give her as many orgasms as she would like?

I am surprise though that so few people are pointing out the inaccuracies in the OP's statements which is what is bothering me the most tbh. Because
1- it means I am not sure what is actually the situation
2- it is impossible to give appropriate advice.

Most of the posts on here are merely the reflection of the different posters experiences. The ones who never had an issue with sex/sex drive and think that 'withholding sex' is cruel. The ones who have had a hard time with giving birth and know they didn't feel like having sex for a long time. And the ones who have completely gone of their DH (or ex) because they were so attached to carrying on life as pre children, put their own needs first (such as work and getting a promotion, feeding their self esteem that way etc...) wo a thought for their DW allowing them to do so.

And in the middle we have the OP who has said very little to be honest apart from:

• he is the only sexual partner that his wife never had and he has decided she doesn't like sex.
• he wants and needs sex
• he thinks he is already doing plenty as he is working so hard.

What we haven't heard, and I think this is very telling, is:

• what he has done so far to try and improve the situation.
• what his DW thinks and feels (we don't even know if he has ever asked her or if she feels comfortable enough to tell him. Hell he doesn't know why she married him!)
• how much of the parenting stuff he is doing
• whether his DW is happy with the current family set up (her not working, him working very long days etc...)
• what he is doing to improve the intimacy. Intimacy isn't just about kisses and cuddles. It starts with conversations which it seems she used to be good at but not anymore . It starts with spending relaxing time together, doing things, maybe even cleaning the kitchen in a relaxed way whilst having a chat.

That sort of issues is NEVER just about one person being a prick and not making the effort to have sex.
It is more or ALWAYS about a huge relationship issue with problem stretching across the whole relation, from the division of housework, to parenting to work-life balance. It can also be about personal issues such as self esteem after giving birth, difficulties in finding yourself again as a SAHM when you were a high flyer before. Or about realising that once you are a parent, some things (your family and your children) need to take priority to work and fun, aka usually the man who carries on with his life as before when they have become a father of 1, 2 or 3 dcs and get surprised that their DW ask for support/involvement from them.

I have to say I am at some of the very simplistic views expressed on here.

That's all I'm saying. He blames her entirely. It sounds like the sex is mutually unsatisfying and they both have a problem communicating. The fact he is blaming her entirely is what is making it seem as though posters pointing out this is not likely to be the case are 'siding' with her.

Offred I agree with your comment re sex and the fact she probably doesn't even know sex can be more gratifying.
That woman was a virgin when she met the OP. She had one orgasm in 8 years, which means one orgasm in her life!!

And big if you read the thread it is him who is saying all she seems to do is look after the dc which is what I was referencing.

If he works 60 hours a week what else is she going to be able to do?