Support thread for those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships - thread 29

[CharlotteCollins]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

Smoothing over doesn't really solve the problem, though, does it? Because as soon as you do something to appease him, he gets irate over something else. He is constantly moving the goalposts to keep you in line.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad or attack you, so please don't think that. But you shouldn't have to smooth everything over. Grownups... responsible stable grownups... DEAL with conflict appropriately. He is not doing that. He is bullying and controlling you.

My biggest concern for you is this: I'm worried that the moment he gets a whiff that you are ready to make the jump, he is going to go very dangerously abusive. He is either going to take it out on you physically (as clearly he will feel the controlling behaviour isn't enough at that point) or he is simply going to sail right off the edge of sanity and hurt himself and others.

You need to steel yourself to make choices that are what is best for you and your children. He is an adult, and as such, is responsible for his own actions and decisions. You cannot be responsible for his behaviour and that includes if he decides to try to hurt himself in an effort (even superficially) to get you back in line.

I know you're probably thinking that it's easy for me to say, as I'm not in the situation. But I have been there. I had an ex that was actively planning on killing me. That made threats to kill himself. That stalked me and my dd with a loaded gun in his car. That showed up a number of times at my house acting very oddly, after I received a phone warning from his solicitor that he was concerned he might do something stupid or dangerous. Thankfully, I involved police and it's all behind me now. That was years ago. But as messy as it was, I don't regret leaving. If I had to do it again, I would only have left sooner. I packed up myself and my dd and we left while he was at work without telling him. I just left a note. It was scary, but I was more scared to stay.

Alice how awful. Wow. But hearing that has made me think about your points... he does seem to be actively becoming more dick-ish by the day and it's obviously in response to me putting my foot down about some things.

He has just started bombarding me with texts like '30 years of no affection' etc, about how hard-done-by he is. I could smooth it over by going out there but he will just hurl abuse (verbal) at me if I do.

When we all walked away from him at the reception yesterday I got the feeling he got the message that he was out of order, his next call was more reasonable but we'd already decided to placate him by going to his choice of restaurant.

I still don't feel that it's bad enough to just up and leave! when I ask counsellor if I should she just says 'what do you think'? But the reason I haven't is all the points you mention: I'm worried I will do it in a clunky or half hearted way then he will have the upper hand ie when I called police before I wasn't prepared for them taking him away and keeping him overnight, charging etc so I've ended up smoothing that over to some extent by telling him that I'd only intended to get it on record (true) not expected such a heavy handed response I don't regret, however, calling or what happened afterwards. And the fact that he hasn't addressed it or dealt with it reflects badly on him (according to my solicitor). But if I'm leaving I need to get new place set up which I just have a mental block about.

I have (again) rented a storage space and am putting some things in there... my grandmother's table which he hates (he didn't ask where it had gone?!) and evidence of my over-shopping (as I treasure these things and I don't want him knowing/criticising. it will all come in handy one day).

Sorry for the me-me rants but I'm trying to force some action on my part. Would be very easy to jump in the car, go out, smooth things over... and that might be the right thing to do so as not to make him suspicious.

thatsnot I don't really have any practical advice, only that I second what alice says about him moving the goalposts. That was a favourite of my KD with me puffing and panting running around trying to fulfill these widening expectations etc. Wearing myself out when I got it 'wrong' again and trying to appease him/smooth things over. It was exhausting. He still tries it. Sometimes I can feel myself slipping back into 'appeasing' mode and have to jolt myself out of it.

KD cancelled contact today saying he 'couldn't be bothered coming out in the rain, and what's wrong with me coming to his with our DC'. So he'd basically have 3 toddlers out in a downpour than come out in it himself. Great dad [sceptical]

He's also hinted at something along the lines of if I can't 'make the effort' to take them to his house, why should he make the effort to come to mine. I still don't think he quite 'gets' that as NRP it's up to him to turn up to contact, not up to me to arrange it/run after him.

As an aside, our puppy arrives on monday (springer spaniel we've already named 'Dotty') and we're all excited. KD is not impressed and thinks I should've consulted him before getting a puppy. Please tell me he can't make me get rid of it if he's not happy with a dog being around our DC..

Curt No, he can't make you get rid of it, as long as it's well taken care of and the children are not left unsupervised around it (as obviously then he could argue it's dangerous - as it IS dangerous to leave any dog around children unsupervised).

thatsnot I didn't have anywhere to go when I left that ex. Just packed up stuff in my car and my parents' car, took dd, and went to a letting agent and literally threw myself on his mercy, explained the situation and said I desperately needed somewhere safe to go as he had assaulted my 6yo dd the night before. Thankfully, the letting agent bent the rules, gave me keys to a nice property within budget, no deposit, no waiting, I moved in that day. Just be prepared - you may at some point have to bail in a moment's notice. If you feel that urge to bolt, do it. Your instincts are there for a reason.

Had contact visit with KD today. He was reasonably pleasant, although still brought up going to MIL's house a couple times in front of the dcs. Thankfully, they didn't pick up on it, or they'd have gotten upset and wanted to go to her house (she was going to come to public venue with KD, but didn't due to the weather being bad - she has health concerns). I was not happy that he tried to put me on the spot like that. I told him that I was not going to do that, and then he rolled his eyes and acted put out for a bit, which I ignored entirely. Total time of visit...one hour, 15 minutes. No request made by him to see the dcs more frequently, even though he knows they are essentially out of school and he is not working. In a way, I'm glad, as it's a hassle.

alice there's no way on earth I'd leave DC's and dog unsupervised, but his argument is that he can't guarantee I won't and my word isn't enough. Knowing him like I do, he'll find issue somehow, even if he has to fabricate it like he's fabricated things in the past. He's an extremely good 'story teller' which, if he tells it enough times to enough people, becomes an actual happening in his (and their) minds, rather than some imagined scenario. He's also a very convincing liar.

He's already majorly peeved that I turned down his idea of 'date night' and the cracks in his charming veneer are beginning to show.

Oddness here today. Dcs were collected for contact this morning and they were effectively leaving this house for the last time. When cgf came to the door (cd isn't allowed to) he asked for the keys. I told him I would hand the keys over when I had properly moved out but it made me very unsettled. I'm wondering now whether had I handed over the keys, when I came back on Thursday, the house might have been stripped bare of everything.

I can't wait to move. I'm tired of this now. I don't like feeling like I'm having to second guess everything.

I'm tired. I'm just worn out. My head hurts.

A few comments re the recent contact visit.
KD spent more time talking to me, instead of to the dcs.
KD still tried to insist he was buying food for me, but I remained firm and insisted if I wanted food I would pay for my own.
KD made a point of saying that his moving away (with OW) was a big mistake. As the dcs had no clue what he was going on about, I can only think that comment was made for my benefit. At the time, the only thought I could come up with was "No shit Sherlock." I didn't voice it, obviously, although the temptation was pretty high.
KD made a point of deliberately suggesting that we take the dcs to his mum's house and spend some time (have a coffee, he said). A couple times he mentioned it in front of the dcs. I declined. What part of "only in public place" was unclear? I had to tell him "when we're in a private house, tempers flare and you start getting shouty, and I'm not up to listening to it." No, not horribly subtle, but Christ on a bike, short of a sledgehammer, how to nail this point home? Seriously?
KD sent message asking me to tell ds happy birthday today. I sent message back saying he could ring ds and tell him if he would like. A few hours later, no response, no phone call to ds. Nothing. sigh. Why am I not surprised?

alice you sound worn down. I know exactly how you feel. It's exhausting repeating the same old message over and over and over again. With mine it's: No, it's not up to me to arrange contact. No, it's not my place to run after you and 'make the effort' regarding you seeing DC. No, I won't be discussing my personal life with you. No, this is not us 'having space to work on things', it's a separation with view to divorce.

None of these things seem to sink in. Ever. And I'm getting mightily tired of A) repeating them and B) having him act all pally like we're 'friends'. Being civil and amicable around our DC is not the same as being friends.

Oh, soooo right there with you. Except I do offer a specific time and place for contact. He can either take it or leave it. Otherwise, he'd be messaging here and there and everywhere with just a few days notice, expecting contact on his terms, which would be utterly frustrating. This way, I can plan around it. It's this day, this time, and if he doesn't confirm by XXX day, then it's not at all. And that's it.

But yes, god, yes, the moment I'm polite, it's like "oh well, I can push things further then..." No. You could just try acting like an adult. He made the comment while we were at the contact that he'd "forgotten how difficult it was to shop with the kids." Again, no shit Sherlock. I guess that's what happens when you abandon your kids, eh? Prat.

Alice, being in close proximity with him is draining, though, as you are hypervigilant and also he is toxic to you. It does not matter what he says, these things stand. Add in fielding psychologically intrusive comments and it is worse.

I wonder whether there is room to consider the contact centre again. His conversation focuses on you, and his comments about OW being a mistake, suggest he is there to build bridges with you rather than spend time with dc. I get that you are there in a safe-guarding capacity, but for as long as you are, he will not be focusing on dc. He is also trying to manipulate the situation by bringing up alternative contact scenarios in front of dc. In other words, in a contact centre, dc would be safe, and you would be more detached from the situation.

alice yes to the 'forgetting how difficult shopping with DC is..' KD said much the same last week,.and flapped around in McDonalds like we were the only ones there with noisy toddlers! I'm not sure how you feel about contact centres like bluebell suggested but it's not a road I'd personally choose to go down. For now it's grit my teeth and get through contact, which is only 2 hours out of my life p/w. It's all the late night/early hours texts asking for date nights and forgiveness that gets my goat more than anything. And having to repeat myself again and again and....

I was actually filling out the paperwork for having contact at the contact centre six months ago, and the next month, before they'd had a chance to contact him to start organising it, he up and moved out of the area with OW, which rendered the whole discussion useless.

I have actually been thinking about it. There are some problems with it, not insurmountable, but still actual problems. The biggest being that, as previously, I suspect he will not cooperate with having contact there. And the centre was very clear - they will contact him about it, but if he is uncooperative and refuses to have the contact there, they cannot force the issue, as it's not court ordered. My option then would have to be "no contact" and then I would expect all hell to break loose. Even though he now sees them one hour every two weeks (by his own choosing), he would kick off.

I think I'm just worn out. I had no idea how stressful him moving back into the area and dealing with the fallout would be.

alice yes as I understand it if he refuses contact at a contact centre, it can't be enforced. I know without a shadow of a doubt my KD would kick off royally and I'm just not in a place, emotionally, to deal with that. I have just about managed to keep him to sticking to the saturday afternoon contact but yes, having him living in my street is stressful, he still 'pops in' occasionally when he feels like it/is passing but I've managed to keep these visits very short. I'm waiting for the charm to disappear (and it's already slipping) but so as long as he's civil in my home, I'll tolerate his impromptu visit up to a point. The day he starts shouting/swearing/being abusive is the day he is no longer welcome to 'just pop in' and all contact will happen in a public place or not at all.

Yes, I remember, that is why I was wondering how you felt about it now.

I think the most obvious point is that you would not be going 'no contact', you are offering him contact in a contact centre.

Remind me what the issue is with dc going to ex-Mils for contact? Apologies as you have probably already said. I know your ds has special needs, and ex was abusive, but for an hour, do you not think xMil could cope?

Sorry, I forgot to say happy birthday for your ds. I hope he had a nice day. I think dealing with all the emotions around birthdays is hard on top of everything else.

Bluebell Thanks for the happy birthday for ds - yes, he's had a good day. It's been a bit stressful for me here and there, as he's been ramped up to the rafters, but he's had a good day I think.

The reasons dc can't go to MILs for contact:

• she has health concerns and is in no condition to care for them reliably (in case he ever left them with her for any period of time even just to go to shop)
• her house is not "ds1-proofed" for safety (sounds extreme, but he has very complex needs and can put himself in real danger very quickly)
• she has memory problems and forgets to turn off cooker, leaves knives, teakettle where dcs can access them. Ds1 (due to disabilities) and ds2 (due to age) are at risk in that environment. And KD is not careful or observant enough to monitor it - he does the same that MIL does, such as leaving knives out, doesn't think about them grabbing teakettle, stuff like that.
• she is unable emotionally or physically to stop KD when he is acting aggressive or abusive. I have literally seen her just look away uncomfortably when he is screaming at the dcs. She wouldn't stop him, I think she is slightly intimidated and horrified and just doesn't know how to handle it. She has said to me that she doesn't like his behaviour when he is like that, but she literally does NOTHING to stop it. And she certainly wouldn't tell me about it if I wasn't there to witness it.
• social services have already told me when talking to me that based on what has happened so far, he should be supervise around the dcs. If I then left them with him in a situation that could be seen as unsupervised (and I suspect with MIL would be considered that), then I could get in trouble with ss as well.
• I don't trust that at some point MIL might not be there and KD would be by himself with dcs, which is a big risk
• I refuse to put the dcs in danger. And they would be. (actually that's the number one reason, but hey ho, just listing off).

Then there's always the fact that when the contact is in a private residence (such as mine or MIL's), then KD sits on his arse and watches telly, drinking coffee, and either ignores the dcs or shouts at them and is aggressive. He rarely actually interacts with them or plays with them. At least at a public place, he cannot sit back and watch telly or expect me or MIL to wait on him. I try to put it at places where he needs to interact with the dcs somewhat - library, toy store, play place of some sort. Same with contact centre - he has to actually interact with the dcs, which IMO benefits the dcs more.

It's puzzling. For someone that "wants" to see the dcs, he doesn't really seem to know how to interact much with them or seem to want to, for that matter. It's weird. And he's always been that way.

Thanks, I did figure xMIL may not stand up to her son if he lost it.

I think, hard as it is, the options are what you are doing or contact centre. I know you are probably venting on here so I am sorry if I come across as trying to 'fix' it. I guess it is a case of least worst solution. Are you still doing EOWs? It may be a case of concentrating on yourself and recognising these days are going to be draining, and, as I think you are already doing, cutting any other communication down to the minimum.

Aside from the counselling, what support have you had/got? I ended up on medication as I ran out of coping resources, and actually it has helped take the edge off it. Not suggesting you need medication, but it was helpful to speak to GP and note the amount of stress this has put me under.

My counselling is unavailable to me over the summer holidays, as nobody to watch the dcs. So I'm pretty much on my own in that regard. Speaking to the GPs in our surgery is no help at all, been there, done that.

Sorry, yes, I do come on here to vent a bit, as I can't obviously vent in front of the dcs. Yes, EOW.

Alice, it sounds really tough, especially as you're a single parent and have a child with SEN. No wonder you're feeling worn down.

No, I didn't mean it in any negative way; more I was apologising for going over old ground in trying to understand the situation and offering advice you have already thought of.

It took me two years and three GPs to get some kind of help, by which time I really was at the end of my resources for coping. At that point, they said the HV would come involved as dc is under 6. I though oh good, I asked the HV to come when dc was four months old and got told they concentrated their resources on people who needed the help in a different, ie more deprived, post code area. So, yes, I would like some advice now on the impact of contact on ds and what best to do. Do you think an HV has been in touch yet? So, I get your frustration, but the last dr I saw was actually lovely and triad to help me right away.

Anyway, I have waffled enough.

Charlotte Thanks. I really shouldn't complain. I just sometimes have this huge need to vent. Between ds1 and his disabilities and ds2 and his SNs, I will admit I can be run ragged throughout the day - which is only going to be more exhausting over the next six weeks. I think I could deal with it fine (even if a bit wiped out here and there) if it weren't for the added stress of dealing with KD.

I need to just shrug it off and detach during the week, but I think just the combination of birthdays, no counsellor for a few weeks already, and the addition of the contact visits with the badgering about coming to the house by KD, I've just reached stress out point. A few days to clear my head, and hopefully I'll be back on an even keel again.

Bluebell HV in this area is a loon. I already told her ages ago not to come see me anymore. (She is certifiable, actually made me quite uncomfortable - would show up without any appointment and be cross that I wasn't home or would make an appointment DAY but refuse to give a time, and insist that I would just need to stay at home and wait for her all day as she couldn't possibly give me an actual time of visit ).

I went to GP, and after having crying session in office (while still together with KD), she said "you'll cope, that's what women do.." and sent me on my merry way.

I told paed. She defended KD. She apparently then reported it all to SS, but neglected to tell ME this, so I thought she didn't believe me. So it was ages before I told anyone anything else, much less how stressed I was.

I told practice nurse at surgery, she told me she sympathised but she wasn't really able to do much for me and suggested I make another appointment with a different doctor that was better informed about what to do in domestic situations. Wasn't able to get appointment with that specific doctor for weeks, so gave up. Was a bit baffled as to why just one doctor was able to help with this.

I finally organised my own counselling as I was worried because I was so stressed that I wasn't sleeping at night and I was exhausted.

Maybe make an appointment with that specific doctor for when schools go back?

I'd thought about it, but I already have my next appointment made for the first week in September that the dcs are back in school with the counsellor, so I think I'll just go with that. At the time I was trying to get help previously, I was still with KD and dealing with daily abusive behaviour from him, and I was stressed but also hoping for help regarding him. Now it's more of just an ongoing stress issue IYSWIM.

The counselling was helping quite a bit. I'm not depressed, so I don't feel I need antidepressants. I need to retrain myself on how I deal with stress - I am a "put things in boxes and hide them away" kind of person. Which is fine, until the boxes all pile up and explode as there's no more room for boxes. I just need to empty a few closets of boxes I guess.

Oh... and I'd like to win the lottery please. I think that might alleviate my stress a bit. Since my vacuum, my water heater, and my hedge trimmer are all sitting like bricks at the moment, doing nothing.

And in the meantime, we trudge on...