Support thread for those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships - thread 29

[CharlotteCollins]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

He does try that Charlotte. He also tries the complimenting thing when he wants to change the subject away from his bad behaviour or when he know I am irritated at his behaviour. He thinks it's "charming" I think. I think it's annoying. Because it's so obviously not sincere, but an attempt to manipulate.

I have to remind myself on a regular basis that I am not dealing with a rational person. Practically every time I communicate with him. It's actually something I discussed with my counsellor - how exhausting it is even having minor communications with him because I have to work constantly at keeping the communication within normal parameters and rerouting any intrusive questions and manipulation. It's like verbal fencing.

I wonder whether you are playing into his hands Alice. I would just give him the answer and be done with in. X game, x toy, a link to where he can buy it, tell him not to forget card and wrap. He's only asking you because he wants to engage you, trick you into thinking about him. Possibly?

No, he's done this a couple times since we've separated. Prior birthday, Christmas. At Christmas, he asked what to get them. I gave him a suggestion of something they really wanted (board games) and even told him where they were on sale at buy one, get one free (ToysRUs, practically on his doorstep). His response "hmmm... they're like £15, so kinda expensive..." He didn't buy them anything, just expected me to make sure they had presents in the end. Same thing happened on their birthdays last year.

No matter what I suggest, he'll find a problem. Then it's like he needs to discuss it with me.. what are other suggestions, what about this... It's just a way for him to get not only a conversation going but a few negative comments in as well.

I'll point out that £15 for someone that is actually working, living with his mum (so no actual living expenses), for presents for their 2 children for Christmas is IMO not that expensive. Especially when I paid for everything else.

I think where you say it is a way for him to get a conversation going and a few negative comments in- that is what unreal means when she says you are playing into his hands. The way to avoid this is either as she says, to provide clear details of what they want, and then refer back to that; or to simply say, I am sure they will be pleased with whatever you get them, and thereafter various versions of, it really is up to you.

For as long as you verbally fence as you put it, he has an opponent. If you stop playing, he can't fence himself.

Stick to clear objective facts, no room for misunderstanding and then regardless of what he says, stick to them. You are right about having to constantly police the intrusion, but part of that is closing it down wherever possible. Saying same as they liked last year, when you know he has no clue, is point scoring. My xH has asked for something to be arranged around his work commitments, I feel like saying I juggle dc and work ALL THE TIME, sort it out, but what is the point of that. I either agree or I say it doesn't work for me.

I really wasn't looking to point score at all. If I was looking to point score, I'd have simply said "If you had been here and been a decent father, you'd KNOW what they want." That, IMO, would have been point scoring. (and god, I wanted to say it, but I didn't - which is why I ignored the messages for a bit, because I didn't want to crack and say something like that) You've seen what he's like with the "why can't I see the kids at the house?" thing. He just keeps on and keeps on and keeps on and doesn't. let. up. Everything is a route back to his agenda. Always.

I simply wanted to avoid having a discussion of any kind about it. The moment I said what they specifically liked, then it would be "well, what kind of toy, you need to tell me what they have so I don't get them something they already have... and what about this? and oh, you can't ask me to get that - that's too expensive.... " and so on. He tends to try to draw you into a conversation so he can then shut you down.

And to be honest, why the hell should I have to serve as his personal assistant to give him ideas on what to buy for his own flipping kids? Yes, it's irritating. I shouldn't even have to field that question at all. So yes, I was angry that he bugged me with it. But point scoring? Nope. Just wanting to shut the conversation down before it started.

Maybe I am looking at it from the wrong perspective.

For the last decade, xH has bought dd all manner of stuff without ever asking what she wanted or needed. Some of it has been cheap tat, some of it has been expensive, some of it she liked, some of it was like ?!?. Maybe you could say, well, he made the effort, or maybe you could say if he had asked, the money would have been better spent. It all comes into my (small) house. Neither he nor his parents have ever asked what dd needs, and if money is tight, it makes sense for dd to get what she wants or needs.

Does it benefit dc to get something they want from their dad? I think it is different from contact where the point is to see him, it does not have to be in your house.

This man does not know how to parent, and in a sense, you are facilitating this for the sake of dc. Telling him what they want for their birthday is low cost to you. Letting him into the house is not. It is kind of like picking your battles with a toddler. If he comes back with questions, suggest he gives them an Amazon voucher.

When KD asks me what our DC want for their birthdays (and he will), I see no reason to not give him one or two ideas, because ultimately it will benefit my children having something they actually want, rather than something random and pointless because I wouldn't chuck him a few pointers.

I know he should know, being their dad and all, but the simple fact is, he won't. And even my parents who spend a fair bit of time with my DC (more than he does), would rather ask me what to buy and get something worthwhile, than guess and waste money. It's no skin off my nose when it comes to something that will benefit my kids.

It doesn't even have to be a huge conversation and you can shut it down at any point. "DC likes this and this." If he tries to draw you into further discussion shut it down with "You asked what DC wanted, I gave you 2 options, the rest is up to you." End of.

I've had to get really firm wrt boundaries with KD living in the same street as me, anything that directly affects me is something that I keep a very close eye on. But if he's asking about DC and at least appearing to make an effort with contact/interest in their lives, then that's entirely different and I can't see the point in being difficult.

Bluebell As I said, the last two times he went through this nonsense, he ended up not buying them anything. The whole point for him is to get communication going. If he was actually going to go to the effort of buying them something, then yes, I'd probably be more informative.

He'll just let his mother buy something (and she usually picks gifts out herself) and then he'll say it's from him and his mum. Standard.

I think part of the problem here is that the last couple weeks I've had all this communication from him and I feel pressured and threatened and I keep trying to shut down the blasted communications and it just keeps coming. When we met for the dcs contact, he acted annoyed that I wasn't being all chummy and chatting with him, when he was supposed to be interacting with the dcs.

I'm just tired of constantly having to be policing his behaviour when he's with them, dealing with his issues, and just fielding the nonsense. I think I'm just stressed and tired right now. Don't you get tired of having the "grease the wheels" for him all the time? I do. Very tired of it.

Yes, I do. It always comes in different guises. The last onslaught was over a 5-6 week period and I did actually tell him to stop bullying me. This led to silence for a few weeks and now I have superficial charm. I am keeping it businesslike, but it is up to me not to engage and as you say, police the boundaries.

I think the difference now is that we have an extensively negotiated agreement and I think he has had ample chance to make what he wants known, so my boundaries are clear in what I have been prepared to agree to. Anything beyond that is intrusive and needs to go through legal channels. But he is holding out on finalising it of course.

I think partly I also need to detach because if we email about a practical point, I still wonder if he has replied and feel tense until the matter is resolved.

Alice, when I have felt like that about KD's communication, then I haven't replied at all. You know he'll probably not end up getting them anything and it's all for the conversation, so just ignore it. The best way to shut down a conversation is not to respond at all. Next text that comes in may well be an arsey judgement on your silence, but that too you can ignore.

I have even, on occasion, seen emails or texts from KD and thought, "It's still x days till the next contact; it can't be that important. I'm not feeling strong enough to read this now," and then left it for a day or two.

What policing of behaviour do you do? Directing him back to interacting with the DCs is stressful and fairly pointless, because FWs never seem to learn. Getting a book out to read when he tries to talk to you and ignoring him and pretending to ignore the DCs might be more effective?

I have to monitor the dcs, as ds1 is disabled and no regards for safety. KD isn't careful in that regard and if I don't pay attention, ds1 could get injured or run off. And redirecting him to talking or interacting with the dcs. I tried to stay in the background a bit and not engage when he had that recent contact with the dcs, and he bought me food (even though I told him not to), nagged me to eat it (even though I told him it wasn't food I liked and I wasn't hungry anyway), then made snarky comments about it. All the while I was trying to shut down the conversation and redirect him to interacting with the dcs. Because of the abuse history, I have to be aware of what's going on, in case I have to step in.

As far as ignoring his messages, that is what I was doing initially. I was just getting irritated as he was still asking the same question. So rather than answer him, I was venting on here. I finally answered him because I was just tired of him asking.

You could always copy and paste the birthday present details you sent him last year; or, if you do send one this year, file it for next year. Etc.

It would out me to say in what context I wrote a stock of emails to get me through a difficult time, then copied and pasted as necessary.

You could start a folder of form emails to FW. Memo on birthday presents etc.

Having NC has advantages. Last year, ds2 (it's his birthday today) got a play house for the garden. I suggested it and FW bought it. He was meant to be bringing it here but it has stayed at the PIL's house

In Sept, when dd1 turned 16 we discussed getting a cheap tablet, say £150ish. He said he would deal with it. She had an ipad. On the morning of her birthday, she asked if he would email me a photo of her with it. He did so, but added the caption 'haha look what I've got, you don't have one'

Since there has been no contact these issues have decreased considerably. Christmas came and went. DS1's birthday came and I bought him (with no reference to FW) an xbox by cashing in all my tesco vouchers. DD2's birthday came and I gave her money towards a new phone. I have not yet decided what to get for ds2. His birthday won't really be celebrated until next week when we are on holiday with my family. He also had a food challenge at hospital today so I wasn't going to bother. You can imagine my shame when the nurses handed over this lovely Thomas the Tank set for him

Even when contact is re-established in some way, I'm going to stick to this. I cba with his one upmanship. Nor can I be bothered to put thought into something which the boys will use four days a month when they go for contact.

What is KD btw??

It is kid's dad. I just wrote a post about it not doing justice to the fuckwittery which brought us all here, but I have no wish to offend anyone and I am way too tired to judge if it appropriate. I use a mixture of xH and FW, though we are still legally married - old habits die hard. The phrase FW got me through some crap.

night all.

Some of us have been using KD as it separates us from him, IYSWIM. Ex and stbx highlights the relationship. For me, KD means we're nothing except technically "coparents" now. I use it to help detach a bit more. (doesn't mean he's not still a FW though )

I like the idea of having a stock of responses to copy/paste. I may do that.

I'm waiting for the blow up when he realises that no, we're not inviting him to the birthday party for my dcs next week. The dcs know about it, and not sure if they'll say anything in front of him (hopefully not). I'm not going to mention it in front of them for the next few days and hopefully it'll be forgotten temporarily.

Yes, NC was better. Shame his fiancé dumped him.

What an excellent idea to use a term for the child's father rather than 'ex'. How about CF (don't like 'kid') you could use CGPs as well instead of ex M/FIL. You could go round the whole family and refer to them only through your child's relationship to them.

Oh yes, I like that. It fits in with my style anyway as I said to the kids a long time ago that they would never hear lies about him from me or me trying to make them hate him or me speaking badly of him other than the facts they need to know. Although I hate him, he is still their dad and they love him.

It might take me a while to get into the swing of it but I might try that.

CF always makes me think of cystic fibrosis (as my nephew has it). I went with KD because someone else was using it (and explained why).

Maybe CD? Children's dad? I think CD is relatively clear.. lol

I like KD, I like that it clearly defines what he is to me now rather than referring to our 'romantic' relationship.

Speaking of, he text to invite me on a 'date night' in order for us to 'reconnect' and clear the 'obvious sexual tension between us'. Once I'd stopped laughing I politely declined and had to resist the urge to add 'lmfao' to the end of the text.

I consciously don't co-parent with xH though, we parallel parent, which means he does his thing and I do mine, and that maintains the boundaries. I don't have an issue with him as dc dad; the issues I have with him are because he is my xH and because he behaves like a FW, less so than a year ago, but nonetheless, now and then.

I don't know, KD is certainly more respectful and I always felt vaguely guilty about calling xH a FW (even though he was one), but we none of us came to this thread because of co-parenting issues. We came because of abuse issues. My dc have two KDs, only one behaved like a FW. I may regard him as simply dc dad, but that has taken a long way to get here.

Whatever, it is a matter of personal preference.

"clear the obvious sexual tension between us" ?!!?!? Awwww, Curt how sweet. I'm not surprised you laughed. The utter cheek!

Bluebell True. It's always complicated, isn't it? I use KD because I am trying to make firm boundaries and thinking of him as "just" the kids' dad defines him better for me. I'm hoping it will slowly allow me to detach a bit more, and it does help a little. It reminds me that he truly is only that to me now - he's not my partner, he's just the kids' dad. And that is the only context that we have together now. (except for obviously the divorce)

alice he really is a deluded soul lately. If I could be bothered I might feel a bit sorry for him. He's clearly convinced our separation is merely a blip and all he has to do is throw a little 'encouragement' my way and all will be hunky dory!

I am honestly starting to believe he's forgotten the things he did to me and ultimately our DC. I moved out to escape, and yet time and again he refers to it as 'providing us with the space to work at making things better'. I am being what I would describe as 'politely detached', have given him zero indication that I'd ever be interested in reconcilliation (even if he magically transformed into Ewan McGregor and arrived in a convertable with a million quid in the boot!) Not. Going. To. Happen.