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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Inviting a Crossdresser on your Hen Night

601 replies

rachelmonday1 · 04/04/2014 16:08

I'm actually a guy that enjoys crossdressing and am very fortunate to have a number of female friends, one of whom is getting married and has invited me to join her friends on her Hen Night. I don't look too bad when I'm dressed as Rachel and often go out with the girls with no problems.

I'm happily married and my wife understands the "Rachel" side of me, but thinks it's odd that a girl would invite a crossdresser on her Hen Night.

Any views out there?

OP posts:
Offred · 06/04/2014 09:41

By maybe that's the thing, maybe you don't want deep connections with women, maybe you are collecting them as much as they collect you....

kim147 · 06/04/2014 09:42

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Fairenuff · 06/04/2014 09:43

"A huge win for the 21st century"

For managing to fit in with a group of 'friends' by changing your looks and personality? Confused

The same friends who, you say, would not welcome you as yourself Sad

You see, OP, in all of these 400 messages, I don't think one single poster has said that you shouldn't feel free to dress as you please.

But many of us have tried to illustrate how your behaviour as 'a woman' is promoting sexual stereotypes and keeping you firmly locked in your 'safe' box.

That is not progress and it's unfortunate that you can't see that.

kim147 · 06/04/2014 09:44

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Lweji · 06/04/2014 09:49

OP, hope this thread has made you see that Rachel doesn't have to live as if she is trapped in some perpetual Boots advert with 'Here Come The Girls' blaring out in the background as she totters along sipping a Lambrini.

But what if that's the type he really is and wishes to behave?

If we use the expression "girly" to describe a certain type of behaviour (by men or women), some women are girly and others aren't, and some women may act girly sometimes, but not others (say, more professional and matter of fact at work and "girly" when they go out). Why can't Richard be "girly" if he wants to, in the same way that some women also are when they go out, without being considered fake or aping?

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:00

Lweji - he said up thread that he puts a lot of effort into aping women so that he will 'pass'. The rachel persona is therefore adopted and you can see that from the way he calls himself rachel - which is not his given name. There is no reason why he can't wear a skirt as Richard... Or drink a 'girly' drink... Or have a 'girly' manner.... Or socialise with women... I'd question why they were called 'girly' things but I'd also question why he feels he has to ape what he views as feminine in order to engaged with those parts of him he considers feminine.

I have to say my life and friendships are not so much defined by these gender stereotypes and where others try to restrict me using them I resent it.

Women aping feminine is still sexist but not as bad because they do it under pressure/are educated to do it whereas men doing it are telling women what they are from a position of power, which is worse...

Beachcomber · 06/04/2014 10:07

There has been a fair bit of talk on this thread about how a man dressing as a woman would likely be the subject of ridicule. Or how a crossdressing man could be the victim of violence (harassed or even beaten up in the street).

I think the above is key to understanding why some of us on this thread find crossdressing offensive. When a man crossdresses he takes on clearly identified trappings of femininity and 'embraces' the performance of femininity; being 'girly' (rarely 'womanly'), giggling, hair flicking, tottering about in high heels, wearing restrictive clothes that are designed to display a very contrived definition of female sexuality and present the wearer as something to be looked at.

The trappings of femininity vary from culture to culture, but they are all there to perform the same function; to 'other' women. To clearly communicate that men are the default and women are 'other'. To show that women are the sex caste. To show that women are decorative objects. To show that women are below men on a hierarchy. To show that men are in charge and men make up the rules. To clearly show that society is made up of two distinct groups - one of which dominates the other.

Feminist analysis (and books like Beauty and Misogyny which I mentioned earlier) examines femininity within the context of society which is founded on a system of social organisation which firmly and universally places men above women. Gendered clothing and all other manner of beauty practices are part of that system. The trappings of femininity are the gender equivalent of the yellow star. They are there to tell us what our place is. They are there to differentiate the sex caste from the ruling class. And the fact that some women may like the trappings or enjoy wearing them, does not change this one little bit.

Therefore, it is offensive to many of us when a member of the default class takes on these trappings for fun and giggles. (Someone up thread called it gender tourism which is a really good analogy.)

So back to why a crossdressing men may be the subject of ridicule and even violence. It is down to pure misogyny probably with a good dose of homophobia thrown in. A man dressing as a woman is lowering himself. He is doing the worst thing a man can do - act like a woman. Because everyone knows that women are ridiculous and 'other' and objects of contempt and the sex caste. A man acting like a woman is the object of contempt by many other men because he is acting like a woman - like a bitch, like pussy, like a sex object, like a slag, like a wife. (And he may well be homosexual which is just as worthy of contempt because it is pretty much like being a woman).

It may be fun for a man to pretend to be a woman sometimes and fetishize the objects and beauty practices that are our yellow stars. But as another poster said upthread, some of us have to live here. This is our reality. This is our place. To take things to an extreme for the purpose of discussion - what would we think of a man who enjoyed binding his feet and showing off his tiny (deformed and extremely painful) feet to the foot bound girls and women of China? Who fetishized foot bounding and found it an expression of 'his feminine side'? Who found it pleasing and girly and part of what makes a female human being a woman?

kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:23

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Offred · 06/04/2014 10:30

I have no sympathy with the idea it might be awkward... Given I don't have a choice to opt out of 'awkward' in similar situations. Last Saturday night me being a female ordering drinks at the bar attracted the following comments;

"Ooo, hello, when you came and stood there my friends thought you were a present for me!"

"You're really making our night."

"When we were young women weren't allowed at the bar"

"Could only drink halves too..."

"Yeah! In the good old days! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!"

kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:34

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Offred · 06/04/2014 10:34

The time I went to that pub before I had;

"He's got you ordering his drinks!"

"Err... Well it's my round..."

"And you're paying as well?!?!"

"Well, yes, it's my round..."

As though he could believe I was acting as waitress service but the thought I was paying with my own money for drinks I was also drinking was beyond the pale...

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:35

I don't think he should cross dress and IME men who happen to wear things or say things or behave in ways that are considered feminine are not subjected to anything like the same level of ridicule and harassment as actual women.

kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:37

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Offred · 06/04/2014 10:42

Part of the harassment I get you see is sexual. I've had men grab me; bum, breasts, hips, hold my hair and pour a drink on my face, a complete stranger try to force me to kiss him and got angry when I wouldn't and had to physically fight him to get him off me - all the time being called a bitch, had to justify over and over why I wouldn't go out with someone who had decided I was attractive and felt that fact should mean I became his gf, so much more - that's just the worst from the last year.

kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:42

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aliasjoey · 06/04/2014 10:42

Totally agree fairenuff but unfortunately I don't think Richard was really listening to what women were saying on this thread (perhaps that was his masculine side showing through? Hmm ) he just wanted people to say how great he looked as Rachel.

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:43

He can wear the clothes he wants to, have any interests/characteristics he wants to, it's offensive because he is crossdressing... He is aping women not being how he wants or wearing what he wants.

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:45

I have got experience of it btw. My ex bf who I went out with for four years liked items of clothes and make up that are considered female. Still have one of his bikinis...

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:46

And because I'm bisexual and was at one point on the scene in my teens I've hung out with other crossdressers and drag queens.

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:46

A lot.

Offred · 06/04/2014 10:47

My bf sees what abuse I get mostly and if he doesn't see it he sees how it affects me and I tell him about what's happened.

Beachcomber · 06/04/2014 10:50

TBF - you can't say what level of abuse and ridicule a man wearing female clothes is exposed to because you are not that person and you have no experience of that.

Maybe.

But I think we all know that women are universally harassed and the victims of male violence and unwanted attention, because we are women and crossdressing men are subject to abuse because they are imitating women .

kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:54

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kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:54

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kim147 · 06/04/2014 10:56

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