DD, counselling and unhappy ExH

[FushandChups]

Since my separation early last year, DD has been coping less and less and following the recent implementation of 50/50 care, seems to have got worse. I decided that i can't bear to see her so unhappy and after speaking with her teacher who has also seen a change, arranged to see the school nurse. This is to get some advice and ultimately, i would like to use this as a way to access some counselling for her. She is in reception.

H is absolutely adamant that this must not happen. He doesn't want me speaking to the nurse and if i do, she's not allowed to speak to anyone else. DD can talk to him (as its obviously me making her sad because she's fine when she's with him) but no way is she to talk to anyone else.

In brief, he doesn't want her labelled and no matter what i say about there being no possibility of her being labelled, it can only help her, she needs to talk to someone that is completely separate from the situation, he is stating it is not happening.

I don't know what to do other than just plough on as she is really hurting and i don't think me or him is enough for her at the moment. She needs some extra help in coping with what has happened but he is obsessed with this label issue.

He is her father so obviously has every right to say no but on this occasion, i think he is not looking at the big picture. I want DD to be happy with herself and her situation and think this could be a hugely helpful step.

Has anyone been through this with their DC post separation? Did it help them? Or should i just carry on, watching my DD just get sadder and sadder?

No Twinkle that would not be my solution as I am not a stupid person. Why would you try and make me out to be one?

I'm simply going on what you've posted here.

I have not said anything that is stupid.

It took my DD about 18 months to settle into 50:50 - she did have counselling to support her and I'm glad she did because it is most definitely the right thing for her now (5 years on). Both her Dad and I wanted to give her the best possible chance of it working so we both engaged with local counselling services to help - and mediated ourselves to resolve some of the issues that were affecting DD.

But, if one parent with PR doesn't agree to talking therapy, then there is very little that can be done, in my experience. My DHs DS has had counselling repeatedly recommended by the school and the family GP, due to emotional distress and physical symptoms linked to anxiety and stress.
DH has tried everything, including requesting a court order, to secure this support for his DS, but his mum refuses to agree, saying that her Das is fine with her and doesnt need support - its DH who needs to change. The professional assessment is that therapy would be ineffective without primary carer engagement. The GP was blunt with DH - CAHMS resources are limited and if his DS Mum is unwilling to engage, then there are other young people out there who would benefit more from the referral.

OP, if your DD is struggling with 50:50, but her dad is refusing to acknowledge it, then I don't see it ever working. Your DD needs the support of both of you. Perhaps consider mediation to get your point across - if he realises you are prepared to go to those lengths he might realise how important it is, then maybe he'll listen?

Qix, you have said you are avoiding seeking help for your own dc out of some strange misplaced and un named fear and encouraging OP to do the same.

IMO, avoiding timely care for your child because of your own ignorance is "stupid". What are you frightened of ? Have you been reading scare stories in the Daily Mail ?

Thank you all for your comments - has helped a lot. Just to build on my OP slightly:

We went through mediation to get the 50/50 care into place as H was clear this is what he wanted and I have no issues with his parenting day to day, so was happy to agree. However, he did refuse to allow us to build up to this and would not take the DC other than every other weekend up until the 50/50 was in place. I think this may be why DD is finding this hard to settle into but I do genuinely think it is good for her and she will get into the swing of it.

It is since starting this, she has become much more emotional and clingy and had some sleeping issues which is why I spoke with her teacher and why I thought perhaps speaking with the school nurse might help get some advice as well as what is out there for her. There is no way he would agree to less contact - if anything, a follow up text has made it clear he actually thinks both DC (I also have a younger DS) should stay with him more.

Frog - this is my concern really. With him so against it, can I really go ahead as without his support or understanding, will DD really get anything out of this?

Qix – this isn’t about riding roughshod over Hs feelings but about trying to get help for my daughter, and is just the initial enquiry to see if the school feel it is appropriate. You have said that you yourself haven’t said no to this, you're just wary which I would be fine with – it is this out and out "she is NOT talking to anyone and that's final"

Peacesword – you have summed it up perfectly. If she was like this with him but angelic with me, I would still allow this to try and find out what is happening and I am struggling with understand why he thinks because she is fine with him, then I need to 'do more' to make her fine with me. I have tried everything; praise her constantly, tell her I am proud of her, spend all the time with her that I can.

AF I am not avoiding seeking help at all. I am wary of professional counselling because of scare stories I have read on the Mumsnet Relationships board rather than the Daily Mail. I am wary of health visitors becuse I have found them to be innefectual and judgemental. I think people often think that councelling is some kind do magic pill that will make everything all right, but in RL I don't think it works like that.

OP It might be the case that councelling would help, but if you genuinely believe him to be a good parent then it might be the case that your DD is having a normal reaction to a large change in her life. In which case time will be a big help too. It is very difficult to see your child upset and of course you want to do everything you can to help them. Good luck, I know it's hard.

Thanks Qix - that's probably why I want to speak with the school nurse.. she knows what is normal in a child her age and also normal for a child who has been through what she has. Our separation hasn't been pleasant and we have both tried to keep the children out of any strife and would say, for the most part, have succeeded. And, as mentioned, I don't want to start pulling contact as that's not fair and is just more change.

I just want her to feel a bit happier about life as she's so small, it should all be about princesses and dinosaurs at her age!

You know what I would do - I would lie. I would just pretend that you have his consent and everything's fine. Get the help your daughter needs, take it from there. I think he's the type that the less he knows the better. Don't tell him everything, just keep him informed after the event. He sounds like a complete and utter fool.

I think it's important that children can talk to neutral people about how they feel when their parents separate.
I took DS to see a psychologist when I separated from exH, as there was dv involved. Not only for him but also for advice on how best to help him.

In this case the DD is more important than what his dad thinks. And I'd be telling him that he either joined me in talking to the nurse or stay out.

horsetowater that would mean asking the DD to lie to her dad though - these things last several weeks.

It will usually involve feedback to parents - DCs often have the option of speaking with or through the therapist to their parents directly. I can't see it working with such a young DC unless both primary Carers are actively involved; that means the therapist meeting and engaging with both parents.

Personally I would not want to be living in two different places and I'm 43. If she's upset, then she's too young. Sharing is in the parent's interests, but I'm not convinced it's in the children's best interests.

Why did your husband not let the children build up to the new arrangements? Why would he stop his daughter get help if she needs it?
You need to take a stand, otherwise he will cause problems all the way down the line.

I would not agree to 50:50 in the circumstances, and if it meant going to court, fine.

twinkle I disagree. My DD needed time and support to adapt to a 50:50 shared care arrangement, but with help, she is now thriving with two families.

Many DCs who live with both parents struggle with changes to their lives. My DDs counsellor referred to a documented case she knew of where the DCs primary care became shared between two part-time working parents (who were together) - the issues experienced were very similar to the ones my DD had. Should those parents have gone back to a traditional family model because their DC was struggling to cope with change?
Older siblings often struggle with the arrival of a new baby, regressing and displaying symptoms of anxiety and stress. House moves, change of school, new childcare - all of these things can cause upset in young (or not so young) DCs, and are not inherently bad, or too soon for them.

Your position that a 50:50 care arrangement is not best for the DC, based on your own values of the situation, is not unusual. It is so common for there to be negative opinions by outsiders (often tactlessly expressed to the DC), that it is something the counsellor who my DD saw discussed with us. Many DCs in a 50:50 care situation are aware that teachers, friends, grandparents expect them to be unhappy - which adds to the spectrum of conflicting emotions that they are feeling.

I also think that talking to a neutral person is a good idea. I was delighted when dd went to the "listening ear". I wanted her to sort things out in her head without having to worry about whether I was going to be upset, or what I thought of what she was saying.

He sounds like a control freak to be honest. It's not about him but to him it is. Do what is best for your daughter.

Did you end the marriage because the man was physically or verbally abusive? If you did, then he is probably abusing your DD in some way: lying to her, hurting her feelings, scaring her. He sounds very selfish - insisting on contact being the way he wants it and behaving as though he has the right to tell you what to do. Remember that he is the least important person in the setup, and go ahead with seeking help for DD.

He seems to be wanting an awful lot of key thing his way doesn't he? Ws he this controlling when you were together.

You know why your DD is upset when with you and not him? Because she trusts you. She knows you have her best interests at heart and may actually do something to help her. She's not stupid.

I did 50:50 shared child care with my parents. It was hard and I was a teenager. Help with that would have been nice.

There is another possible explaination for his behsviour.

there are some fabulous Dads out there who are terrified that they are going to lose their DCs - as a result, they fight against an imaginary foe that they see in the DCs mum.

It's not an irrational fear - there are Mums out there who will do everything they can to exclude their DCs dad (some even post on MN) - and to Dads who are often lacking in confidence but want to play an equal role in their DCs lives, that perceived threat is very real - and perpetuated by the F4J publicity and other sensationalised media stories.

Those Dads lose sight of the bigger picture for a while - they scrutinise every word & action of their DCs mum for any indication that they are plotting to take the DC away from him. They don't trust or take anything at face value.

I wonder if the OP recognises her ex?

If so, in my experience, it gets better. Slowly, Dad begins to gain in self confidence, and trusts their DCs mum a bit more. But it is exhausting, constantly having to prove your motives are genuine.

Is he always such a control freak? His attitude around him believing all dd needs is to talk to him and not someone who is trained to communicate and help children to find their own answers in a non judgemental, empathic and congruent safe space?

I see his refusal for dd to have a voice and to communicate with someone that is likely to quickly realise the family dynamics and parental behaviour that the child is living with, is to me a huge red flag, something feels very off to me here.

The alternative for DD of not talking to the counselor, which some posters are wary of, is not talking to anyone completely uninvolved with the emotions and stress of the separation.

Ime DD will not speak her true feelings to DH as he will probably get wound up about what she says, nor will she speak her true feelings to OP as they might sound hurtful.

I come from a dysfunctional family and we never ever spoke to DF as he was the problem or DM as we believed that knowing the situation was causing us upset would give her more problems than she already had. So we spoke to no one. And it caused long term issues for us DCs, in adulthood as well as childhood.

Even if the counselor isn't all that the OP hopes it is absolutely worth trying imo.

Many DCs who live with both parents struggle with changes to their lives. My DDs counsellor referred to a documented case she knew of where the DCs primary care became shared between two part-time working parents (who were together) - the issues experienced were very similar to the ones my DD had. Should those parents have gone back to a traditional family model because their DC was struggling to cope with change?
Older siblings often struggle with the arrival of a new baby, regressing and displaying symptoms of anxiety and stress. House moves, change of school, new childcare - all of these things can cause upset in young (or not so young) DCs, and are not inherently bad, or too soon for them.

^ This

Exactly Theoldhag. There is something very worrying about a parent who is so scared of letting 'outsiders' speak to their child. Controlling and worrying. How will this man cope when DD is old enough to seek out extra help and support for herself, through school, or the parent of a friend. Will he still try to control her emotions?

You may disagree Frog but you're not the one living 50:50. Children are resilient and generally adapt to whatever is thrown at them, but that is not the same as it being in their best interests. It suits adults well, but the negative effects are borne by the children.

I respect your choice, but I can't change my view, partly because I've read too many studies analysing the problems it causes.

We have a house abroad and when we've been doing a lot of to-ing and fro-ing I get to the point that I can't remember what is in which house, where the knives are - you end up feeling scattered. I would urge any parent to consider whether they would be prepared to shuttle between two places themselves.

I think it works better when children are teenagers, they're less attached to either parent and spend so much time at friends' houses anyway.

Twinkle the studies I have read say that the outcomes for the child where there is shared care depend on how much conflict there is between the parents. Also that children with shared care do better than children who don't have shared care - which isn't to say that it is always the right thing of course.

If you know different regarding the research I would be really interested.

Children are resilient and generally adapt to whatever is thrown at them, but that is not the same as it being in their best interests. It suits adults well, but the negative effects are borne by the children.

But the same could be said about any choice parents make!

How many DCs live an optimum lifestyle?

What makes 50:50 care more damaging than any other choice that suits parents - whether that is housing location, schooling, childcare, diet, or even how much screen time they have ? They all have negative affects, too.

should parents put themselves in their DCs shoes before they make any decisions regarding their DC? If that were the case, my DD would not be immunised (I would have hated being pinned down the way she had to be), would be forced to wear warm clothing in winter (I hate being cold, and don't care what I look like) and I'd make her tidy her room (because I couldn't work/sleep in that mess).

As parents, we do what we believe is right for our DCs - not what we would choose for ourselves.