Red flag or not?

[TheStitchWitch]

Me and dh have been married for almost 9 years, socially he plays golf a couple of times a month and very occasionally goes out for drinks in town with his mates. Me and my friends go clothes shopping and sometimes out for lunch. In the past I've been invited out drinking in town but having been out of the loop since having the dc feel that my confidence has gone.

On monday a good friend of mine invited me out this Friday for a few drinks around town and I thought why not. She ended the message saying it won't be a late one and you'll get the chance to wear that nice dress you bought. The dress is bright orange and short and I planned on wearing twith leggings and high heeled black shoes.

I read the message to dh and straight away he said your not going out in that The dress was from Ann summers and because of this he thinks it's not suitable to go out in.

I can hand on heart say that our marriage other than this is good, we're very much in love very attentive. But I now feel that it's only been this way because I've been the compliant little wife that didn't want to go out on the town and was quite happy with shopping and meals out with the girls.

He says he loves me and is worried that I'll leave him for someone else, Ive assured him that I have no intention of being with anyone else.

Is he just insecure or is this the beginning of something worse?

Its not my standards, ask yourself why any nightclub on a Friday night is packed with women in skimpy numbers and there are very few long, sensible ones.

And stop dodging the core issue, which is the complete difference a reverse sex thread would get.

If my mrs came down in a skimpy dress and heels (not that the dress OP is wearing is skimpy) and asked what I thought, I'd say phwoarr hope you won't be too tired when you get back.
I would double dare any bloke to try it on with her, any man who makes unwanted advances to her regrets it quickly and not because of me. She's independent and doesn't need or want my permission to wear or do anything. And I love her the more for it.

Many men will think a woman in a bar in a potato sack is looking for sex, many won't.

Again, judging by your own standards, Lazyjaney.

If my BF came downstairs dressed up to the nines for a night out with his friends (which he does), I'd send him off on his merry way with sincere wishes that he has a cracking night.

I feel rather sad for those of you who lead life in such an insecure, suspicious way.

I do think some of the men on this thread like Janey/Stalepale are a dying breed who probably haven't set foot in a club on a Friday night since the 70s/80s or at a push- 90s. My experience of younger men is that on the whole, they just don't think in this bonehead way about women's dress choices.

It's fairly astonishing that MNHQ lets posts stand that have been reported presumably for contravening the We Believe You Campaign and for peddling some of the worst rape myths about women's clothing imputing their willingness to have sex.

As usual Janey's contribution to a thread holds no advice or counsel for the OP- just some of his usual frothing about how advice would be different 'if the sexes were reversed'.

Which of course is arrant nonsense as usual. If a woman posted that she felt threatened or insecure when her husband went out for the evening for the first time in years in clothes that could possible render him attractive to other women- and she'd told him he wasn't going out wearing them, respondents would roundly condemn her for being controlling and unreasonable.

FYI, OP, neil's perspective is not that of "a man" but of "a misogynist". He said that, were his partner to go out dressed exactly like any celeb, any night of the week, as seen all over the papers every day, he would assume she wanted to attract men for sex and might get raped

Really? When? When did I say that? STOP TELLING LIES ABOUT ME.

So are you saying she's not allowed to get pissed, whatever she wears?
Or not allowed to get pissed while wearing a short dress and heels?
Is she allowed to dress like a sleb if she doesn't drink?
Why are you 'disallowing' any of the above?
When did I say I would "allow" or "disallow" anything? I never tell any adult what they can or can't do.

My point was about mutual respect. Let's say I was going on a stag night with a load of mates who were all single and sleep around and it was at a place that had a reputation as a pick up joint. I'm leaving the house, haircut, clean shaven, aftershave on and new clothes. Doesn't mean I'm on the pull but I'd understand if my partner was a bit concerned. If she started a thread on here about it, would you all sit in your ivory towers and tell her to stop being so insecure and grow up? Would you tell her it's none of her business where I go, how much I drink or what I look like when I go out or who with? I'd respect her concerns and wouldn't want her worrying all night and not go.

On this thread, I've been misquoted, lied about, had other people's words attributed to me and had some pretty unsavoury assumptions made about my character. Not once since I've been on this site have I ever flamed anyone, swore at them, lied about them or made any accusation or defamatory remarks. You can twist my words or look for as many hidden meanings as much as you like(evidently) but I know I'm a decent bloke who doesn't treat or speak to anybody like crap. Anybody who knows me, knows as much.

I've given up replying to fulminating posts from bonkers blokes who are incapable of understanding any perspective other than that of an entitled owner of a female, circa 1953.

[rape is] about misogynistic tossers assuming they have a right to help themselves to our bodies - Thanks for this, it's succinct & accurate

Let's be clear - if you deliberately cause your partner unreasonable suffering, then that is abuse. The only question here is whether the OPDP's discomfort was legitimate. There's not enough info to say for certain, but it's possible.

For many people it's not enough that their partners are faithful to them, they also want other people to think their partners are faithful to them. Often these people will have been cheated on before, perhaps publicly.

We're not talking about wearing "clothes that could possibly render [someone] attractive" (I presume the OP does that all the time); this is a skimpy dress from a sex shop. No matter what she actually did on Friday, there are plenty of men (and probably some women) who assumed (incorrectly) she was on the pull simply because of that dress (and possibly makeup, jewelry, perfume, etc). Her DH was uncomfortable with that. Was he being unreasonable?

We don't know. It depends on other factors (eg what really caused him the discomfort, how he reacted when she told him, "custom and practice" between them, the friend's motivations), but it's possible. It's also possible he had every right to feel uncomfortable. And if so, he certainly had the right to raise the issue, and she had the duty to take his concerns seriously.

Does he have the right to tell her what to wear? Of course not, that's abuse. But does she have the right to do whatever she wants, even if it causes him needless and unreasonable suffering? No, because that's abuse also.

Did you look at the dress?

I followed OP's link because I didn't even know Ann Summers sold dresses for wearing in public. It's a dress. Not skimpy, for heaven's sake, it's described as knee-length. And she's wearing it with leggings. I'd look like an overstuffed haggis in it, but OP says she's a size 8/10. I definitely wore cute little dresses like that when I were a slip of a lass. Your argument is superfluous, stale. It's just a bloody dress.

"It's fairly astonishing that MNHQ lets posts stand that have been reported presumably for contravening the We Believe You Campaign and for peddling some of the worst rape myths about women's clothing imputing their willingness to have sex"

It's you and Dahlen who seem to have drawn an extremely dubious connection between talking about women going out on the pull at night in skimpy numbers, and rape. Says more about your mindset than anything else to be honest.

I realise this may come as a shock to you, but the vast majority of women actually enjoy having sex with men, and actively seek it. Which is why flesh revealing clothing exists.

And it is perfectly possible to think some of the advice on MN Relationships is bitter and extremely biassed, and still be a woman. A lot of women on MN do think MN Relationships has a problem, not just me.

When posting, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. In a nutshell, BE CIVIL.
Our policy is to keep intervention to a minimum and let the conversation flow. Having said that, we will remove postings that are obscene, contain personal attacks or break the law as soon as they are reported. - Really?

It was a dress from Ann Summers. End of. No way would I let my wife go out in a dress bought from a sex shop, or for that matter a miniscule skirt with high boots etc. And while there is no real male equivalent, she wouldn't let me go out with my shirt half undone looking like a Roman lothario. It's called mutual respect. There is nothing wrong with a modicum of possessiveness when it comes to your other half and not wanting (a) others to think they are available or (b) them being leered at. Not bothered if that's derided as a 1950s attitude - it's certainly one shared by plenty of people under 40.

Lazy - but if you want to take the issue of rape out of the question, that leaves only infidelity/inappropriate behaviour - which is basically saying that you don't trust your partner purely because of what she's wearing.

That's just bonkers. Can you not see that?

And as for the dress being from Ann Summers - who the hell knows that other than the person wearing it? As far as I remember, manufacturer;s labels tend to be on the inside of clothes. It's just a generic dress.

I don't have an issue with someone being insecure and wanting reassurance, not at all. But be honest and admit your own insecurites - don't blame someone else for them. It's not only cowardly and underhand, it's self-sabotaging.

If it was my BF and he said something like "wow, you look amazing. I know I can trust you but it's making me feel a bit insecure" I'd be really kind and reassuring. But that's not what happened here, is it.

We seem to be going round in circles, but I'll repeat my point because it's being studiously ignored: this is not about trust, it's about the DH not wanting other people to think his wife is out on the pull.

The dress looks very skimpy and certainly revealing (the OP's link even describes it in the title as "sexy"), the single friend organised a friday night on the town and suggested that the OP wear it (classic 'bait'), the OP got angry when her DH asked her to tone it down (and jumped onto MN for backup) giving the impression that her friend's wishes were more important than her DH's, and all this made him uncomfortable. I don't know if his feelings were legitimate, but it sounds like they might've been.

More generally, as I said, if anyone knowingly and unnecessarily causes legitimate suffering to their DP, then they are being abusive. It might be mild abuse, or it might be major, but it's absolutely still abuse.

it's about the DH not wanting other people to think his wife is out on the pull.

???

I don't care if other people think my BF is on the pull or even if they think I am on the pull.

The point is that both he and I know we're not.

Good for you ++Dahlen++, but not everyone feels like you do. Doesn't make them right or wrong, just different...

I think you should wear whatever you like.

I can't imagine why anyone, male or female, would want to wear that dress...but that isn't the point.

Well I'll agree that it's a matter of opinion, not fact, but I think you'd find that most psychologists would feel that expecting other people to modify their behaviour in order to compensate for your insecurities is not generally accepted as a particularly healthy way to conduct inter-personal relationships.

I appreciate it's not that simple and to some extent we all do just that in relationships. There's also an element of respect for someone's feelings to be taken into account. It's all about being reasonable and one person's reasonable is another person's extreme I suppose.

However, I would maintain that clothing choices are such a personal thing tied up with identity and self-expression it really crosses a line to dictate your partner's appearance. It's a correlation, not a cause, but in abusive relationships control over appearance is a classic hallmark in a way that simply doesn't appear in most healthy relationships.

How odd that a cluster of posters have popped up with very similar (and very different to the majority of MN) opinions.

But Dahlen, it’s not necessarily about insecurities – the most secure man in the world might be uncomfortable with other people (family, friends, enemies, strangers…) thinking their DW was out on the pull. Some men will, some men won’t – everyone’s different. And you’re right, clothing choices are very personal and say a lot about you, which is why many men would be uncomfortable with their DWs dressing like they’re on the pull, because, whether you like it or not – and whether it’s true or not – many other people will assume that, because they choose to dress like that, then they are in fact on the pull. It’s not a question of trying to “dictate your partner’s appearance”, it’s saying that there’s a line between what you’re comfortable with and what you’re not, and respectfully discussing with your partner whether that line is in a reasonable place.

HavantGuard, yeah you’re right, in fact we’re all the OP’s DH

I"m not being passive aggressive here, honest, but why does it matter if other people think your DP is on the pull.

You honestly cannot possibly police the thoughts in other people's heads any more than you can get them to think in ways that you want. That way lies madness.

I care what people think about me in a professional capacity. I care what my nearest and dearest think of me in a personal capacity. I care about what I look like to the extent of wanting to my appearance to reflect my personality in line with common cultural norms that none of us are exempt from (e.g looking tidy and well-groomed if in a customer-facing role, not wandering around in a loin cloth because that's not commonly done in the UK). Beyond that, people will think what they want to think in line with their own experiences and perceptions. I could be wearing a pair of jeans and someone from a country in which women don't wear trousers may consider me a woman of loose morals. It's not what I wear that dictates others' reactions to me, it's their thoughts.

Why should anyone have to modify their choice of clothing to address a problem based purely in other people's heads which changing your clothing would do little to change anyway.

Everybody's right so far, but maybe he thinks "She doesn't wear things like that for me". Just a left field idea to throw into the mix.

Dahlen, I"m not being passive aggressive here, honest, but why does it matter if other people think your DP is on the pull.

Because many men would find it humiliating to know their wife was deliberately giving out the message to lots of people that she was so dissatisfied with their sex life she was looking elsewhere for it.

sorry, strike "deliberately" from my last post, that's only if she's aware of why he's uncomfortable, which wasn't in the question.