"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1943011-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

How are you doing Hester? thinking of you.

Thinking of EVERYONE actually, there are so many new residents here, so many realising that there is ZERO chance of their parents EVER being nice/acceptable.

I'm so sorry, I haven't even fully come to terms with this myself, it still hurts a lot, even though I am further down the road.

hester

Would urge you not to send your mother an e-mail. That gives her what she wants i.e your response and an in to bother you even more.

She is trying to hoover you back in.

Would also suggest you block her number also.

Hester

Meant to also write that I hope your embryo transfer is ultimately successful.

Keeping fingers crossed for you.

No I do need to tell her why I have been/will be ignoring her. I can't suddenly cut contact without letting her know that no, actually normal people do not carry on the way she does.

Hester, do it then, but make sure you remove all ways of her contacting you. Block, bar, change numbers

Hester

I respect your decision but I would have done you a big disservice to advise you otherwise. The "normal" rules regarding familial interaction do not and never have applied to your mother.

She has and will continue to ignore any boundary you care to set. I do not think that your mother will let this go, she will still demand your attention and will further contact you at some point. Toxic people like your mother always but always want the last word.

I will say I won't respond to anything she sends back or enter any discussion.

Hester.

We cut contact with MIL and we tried to explain why. It didnt work. She guilt tripped and abused us. Texted etc.
Even if you try and explain, she won't listen. She will not accept it. If will be your fault and she will be the victim.

She hovered for a few months. Used FIL to enable her. we ignored, she got the hint.
Its been 6 months and she decided to launch a personal attack on my facebook and threaten me.
She is still sodding hovering.

Good luck!

Mine doesn't use FB and she lives 300 miles away.

Mine isn't as bad as yours sounds.

300 miles?? Jealous

Mine's 20 mins away.

Aslong as you stick to it and don't comminicate. 300 miles away might be far enough. might

:)

Why do you think I fled to darkest Cornwall?

Don't Hester. That's where my DM is...

If you realise that sending the email will inflame things rather than resolve them, if you know that she will never, ever, ever see any error in any of her ways (unless she pretends to, as a tactic), if you know that nothing you do, say, don't do, or don't say will make a jot of difference, but are doing it for your own self, your own closure and satisfaction of having said it, if you can be sure she won't contact you again, by any means, then ok.

But it won't give you closure while you are still invested in hoping she turns herself around and becomes the person you wished she could be,

As sad as it is, you need to say goodbye to that idea. Forever.

Oh fuck, I just sent it.

I am under no illusion that she will suddenly turn into the sort of person I want her to be.

However I can't just stop contact without explaining why. I can't.

Ha ha Hester - I moved to Cornwall (5 hours away from my Dad) but after 6 years I moved to New Zealand as I decided Cornwall wasn't far enough.

Bloody facebook film I did yesterday (Facebook collects photos and statuses from the past 7 years and puts them to music) heavily featured my Dad, lovely pics of him on beach with kids, recovering from op in hospital bed, status about him flirting with nurses one day after his whipple procedure. Made me feel all emotional and like I should get in touch. I didn't though.

Wise words Hissy. I am waiting for my Dad's next move. I didn't respond to his nasty letter, and this will have thrown him. I predict a false apology next, because he definitely won't be able to leave it like this, and he has said everything hurtful that he can think of. I know now for the first time ever that I won't change him and he will never see my point of view.

Good luck hester!
I'm guessing she'll turn it around and blame you. please do not engage, however tempting it may be!

Birdmomma, i'm waiting for MILs next move too. I'm thinking she will turn up randomly. I am feeling anxious as hell.

Hester, after reading what others have gone through with their relatives and NC, I was actually scared that my mum was being described down to a tee. My mum is in the "I don't care about you, only what I can get from you" category. My late lovely MIL, DH, DC and I moved 350 miles to be close so that both her and dad could pop around once a fortnight or even once a month (we're less than 5mins walk from them). She never comes around, tells me she doesn't like animals yet fawns and fusses over my DB's GF's dog, asks us to come round to her house then makes us feel unwanted and hasn't shown any interest or phoned to even speak to the DC in the last 2 years (we always have to go round there). I think all the promises she told us were just sound bites to get us to move to NI.

I have decided to say nothing about going to university in a 'fenian' area, as mum likes to call it. Hell, I'm not going to even mention getting into university to them and just go on up there. If they were interested in what we were up to, they would have rung and chatted. In all honesty, I don't think my mum likes DH. The only time he's had a run in with her, he told mum he's going home to calm down. She went all dramatic about it and took major offense. Mum says that DH should get a job and let me be a SAHM. Pretty hard considering he has severe arthritis and in wet and/or cold weather, his hands literally seize up like claws. DH took on 3 jobs to let me SAH, so I am affording him the same. He looks after the DC and does the first aid and I study hard for a reasonably decent job.

Do you ever get the feeling you want to give the toxic people in your life a good bloody shake and tell them to wind their neck in? I would love to tell my mum to stop being an arse, but there's no point as she wouldn't listen.

Anyway, got to go and take pooches for a charge around. Good night ladies. Take care and I'll be back tomorrow

hester (((hug))) everything happens for a reason. You'll get through whatever happens (or doesn't) next.

You're not alone now, you have us!

You said what you needed to say, and you should be proud of yourself for that.

A job well done.

I'm very afraid now. My mother's sister will think badly of me, and my dad's siblings will think I'm abandoning him, even though they know what she's like. I love them all but maybe pride will stop her telling them. All she needs to do is apologise and try harder. I don't WANT to abandon her. I just want her to be nicer to me.

I realise how contradictory I'm being by the way. Just quite confused.

All this is normal, just work through it all logically.

Look at the fear you're feeling. That's not the fear of an adult, is it?

That's the little Hester's fear, from when she wasn't big enough to stand up for herself.

That's not your fear, that's not you anymore either.

What others think is irrelevant. Your boundaries are enough.

Chiggers, I'm so pleased you're heading off to university. I hope it goes well for you.

Hester, good luck with the IVF. I know precisely how you feel with the 'I can't just not talk and not tell why...' feeling. I have managed to not discuss it with my Dad, but I'm very lucky that he won't try to contact me, which has made it easier. If he ever tried to contact me, I don't know how I could resist telling him to not.

Things have been hard here. I did go to my brother's birthday meal, and didn't talk to Dad, and kept the kids well away from him. That's done now.

He pops cards through the door for Christmas/DDs birthday. I've ignored them.

So that's the basically good stuff.

What's less good is all the stuff I'm unearthing in therapy. It's going well, and I'm getting somewhere, but I'm shattered by it. I know, intellectually, that I ought to be angry with Dad given how spectacularly rubbish he was. I can't get there though; I just feel all this sadness that I didn't get to have a childhood. We tried to focus my anger on him, but I'm angry at 'young me' for letting him control me the way he did.

More worryingly, recently I've started coming to terms with how much he controlled me sexually. I've always known there was something twisted about how I perceive sex, and how it's all tied up with my relationship with him, but hadn't worked out how. I know that he never abused me sexually; he never laid a finger on me, despite me pretty much throwing myself at him, so desperate I was for his love.

It's only been in recent weeks that I've started recognising that despite the lack of contact, he was controlling and manipulative over me. Things like, for example, repeatedly telling me how disappointed he'd be if I were gay, and how wrong and disgusting that was. I'm pretty sure I'm bi, but that whole thing remains deeply confusing. I was told to be chaste, to keep myself until I was married. I was told penetrative sex was unpleasant and nasty and to be avoided, but I was also told that when I was married, I had a duty to have sex whenever my husband wanted. I was told it was impossible for a man to rape his wife, as she has automatically consented to everything. The implication was; don't marry - you will hate what your husband does to you.

Worst of all, I'm beginning to understand that I knew stuff about his sexual preferences (literally, what he liked and what he didn't) than no teenager should know about their father.

It's all come as a bit of a shock.

And I still can't get angry with him. All the sex stuff was said out of sheer ignorance. He probably thought he was doing the right thing in 'preparing' me for this life.

Anyhow, I just needed to spill it all out now, because it's been rattling around in my head, and I've been stepping closer and closer to the understanding.

I am beginning, tentatively, to try to channel my anger towards him. I have become annoyed with Mum saying; 'but he was a good dad really...'

No, he wasn't. He didn't provide for us, he didn't protect us, and he didn't even love us. He dangled the potential of love if we just toed the line and did as he wanted, but he didn't love. It was all bound up in what we could do for him.

But then I get tired, and I just want to curl up and forget any of this ever happened and any anger just gets sapped away into exhaustion.

Looking, thanks to yourself and all the other lovely ladies on here, I can now see through the mist of duty to extended family and see that my 1st priority is DC, DH (and our lovely soppy mutts, of course).

I came to realise that I was putting all the effort in to visiting family and to keep a relationship going and on track, it needs to be a 50/50% effort on both sides. I'm doing 95% of the visiting and yet, I'm constantly told that I should be making the effort to visit family as they come first. Since when was DH, DC and I doing 95% of the work NOT putting family 1st.

Another problem I have is that I'm made to feel like a total embarrassment to my family, yet now that I'm going to university, I'm hearing that they're so proud of me. I feel like ringing and telling them that if they weren't proud of me for 36 f*ing years, why start being proud now. It makes me wonder if my achievements in school until now weren't good enough. Does anyone else get driven up the bleeding wall by the antics of toxic families? Apologies for the ranting, I', feeling like I wasn't good enough for them until now, and even them they expect me to keep to my role as scapegoat, while my siblings and their OH's get all the praise.

My wee staffy bitch has just picked up on my annoyance and given me staffy hugs and kissess. It's like being waterboarded, but hey, the thought and sentiment are what counts .

Chiggers this is a 'nicey' ploy to get you to come home often/ reconsider/ make you feel guilty for your (valid) intolerance of them.

I feel like ringing and telling them that if they weren't proud of me for 36 f*ing years, why start being proud now.

It's that old kicker of unconditional love. Dad used to tell me he was proud, usually when he'd grilled me about the precise details of my success, so that he could decide whether or not I'd been successful enough. If yes, I was told he was proud. But only because I had achieved something.

Your university place is a brilliant thing, and you should be proud of yourself. They should be proud of you. But then, they should be proud of you for all the other things you've achieved; not just for things that fit with their image.

Dad never said 'I love you.' He wrote it in his will (which he then gave us to read, so that we could see in black and white that he loved us, and look, he even told a solicitor, so it must be true).

But really, I know Mum loves us without telling us. I know she's proud of me because of the way that she looks at me. She says it, and I don't doubt it's true.

With Dad, the pride is empty and the love never given.

Yes, I got of proud smiles when I'd passed an exam, or performed in public on an instrument. When I passed A level music a year early with an A I didn't tell her because I didn't want to have to listen to her gushy squealing. She never remembered she was proud of me the rest of the time. She certainly didn't when I landed a very good job in Cornwall, 300 miles from her and her controlling. She was distinctly unpleasant .

Not heard anything about The Email yet.