"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
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Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
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You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
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"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".<br />
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"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."<br />
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"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
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"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."<br />
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"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
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YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
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Helpful Websites<br />
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<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
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<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
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More helpful links:<br />
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<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a><br />
<br />
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: <br />
<br />
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."<br />
<br />
Happy Posting

[Chiggers]

Looking, some parents either don't want to say they love their children or they can't. I know I'm constantly trying to please them, but find that I'm getting nowhere. If I became a Dr of Psychology and was well known, they'd be all gushy and proud and probably be saying "That's my DD, she's very intelligent", yet when I finished off my other qualifications, they said bugger all, not even a "very good dear". It feels like nothing I do will please them so I just don't bother telling them about the uni place offer. If they're not interested in anything I talk about, I wonder why I talk in the first place. It's strange because no matter how hard it is to stop trying to please them, we can't help but keep trying IYSWIM. It's a simple case of fighting for a lost cause.

I still haven't told them about going to university, although one of my DB's have asked if I've got a place. I've just replied that I won't be on FB for a bit as I've got loads of coursework to do. I'm in between coursework and MN, naughty girl I am DH is torturing the kids, making them laugh and my red staffy is resting his head on my shoulder proof-reading my work .

[Chiggers]

Hester, it sounds like she is being unpleasant to you because she won't be able to control you to the extend she does now. She also sounds like she is having a hard time dealing with that level of control being taken away from her, although that is totally her problem. Your mum may have given birth to you, but when it comes down to it, she is still a toxic person and you have no duty to play into her hands.

As for your IVF, tell her nowt and stick to it. It's your business and the business of the people you choose to tell. I really hope it works for you and if you post that it has worked, I'll be sending you lots of congratulations hugs . After all you've been through with your parents, you definitely deserve some fab news. Crossing fingers and touching wood.

[HesterShaw]

Thank you chiggers

[Chiggers]

No problem Hester, but you have the flowers as you could do with them more than me. It's good to have this thread to have a rant on. It has been scary how people on here have described my mum's behaviour, just by talking about what their relatives are like. I think it's sad that we keep trying to please our relatives, to no avail, yet we're sad that we may have to walk away from them for the sake of our own sanity. We can't win, can we?

Having to walk away can send many people, with toxic relatives, into a grieving process over the inevitable loss of a relationship that should have been but wasn't there IYSWIM. Give yourself time to detach some more and move on slowly. Some people need to take baby steps and some can take great big strides and be right as rain a few days later. Everyone is so unique and individual that they have to do what works for them, as there is no 'one size fits all' approach.

[LookingThroughTheFog]

some parents either don't want to say they love their children or they can't.

This is true. Mum isn't particularly effusive either, but I know she loves me. It's a strange paradox with Dad; I'm annoyed that he never said it, and that everything was focussed on the pride which is, of course, conditional, but I'm equally annoyed that he should have to say it. I don't think I should feel that doubt.

When I read the 'I love you' statement in the will, my first thought was 'I don't believe you.'

I admit, my thoughts and feelings about him are tremendously mixed up!

[Meerka]

I think that what some people call 'love' is more like control. Or a carrot that they can dangle in front of us to hook us in, but it's nothing to do with real love, wanting the best for the other person and for them to blossom into the best they can be.

Some people's love is a blight on your life.

[HesterShaw]

I haven't been able to sleep. Been thinking of all the stuff they've done for me and feeling very guilty. I think I might have tipped her over the edge. Say she harms herself, or takes off? I can't look after my dad. Neither can my sis.

[LookingThroughTheFog]

Hester, it is not your fault. If she harms herself, that is a decision she has made - her - her own. It must not be used to control you.

If she leaves your dad? You will find the mechanisms to make sure your dad is looked after, whatever that might be.

But... I fear you're racing ahead. I do this; I get angry about the things that Dad might do and work myself up in to a rage or panic and try to preempt all the conversations so that I'm not caught out with them.

Try, as far as you can, to be where you are now. You're a grown up person with the right to decide for yourself how you are going to live. That's all. Everything that happens afterwards happens afterwards; don't chase to meet it coming.

And huge hugs to you. Will you get a chance to rest a bit today?

[LookingThroughTheFog]

Meerka - thank you for that. You put it so beautifully, and I'm less confused about it than I was.

That's exactly what Dad did.

He promised love if we just worked a little harder; he never delivered.

[HesterShaw]

There's an email from her in my inbox and I'm too scared to open it.

[Hissy]

hester delete it.

[HesterShaw]

But it might be an apology. I've been thinking of all the times she's been nice and done stuff for me. I think I overreacted. I would be leaving my sis to deal with all their shit.

[Hissy]

[Hissy]

.. or do I have to sound a klaxon, and whistle up Atilla...

:)

[HesterShaw]

Sorry I know I'm being a weakling about this. I promise I'm not one. I run my own business ffs!

[LookingThroughTheFog]

But it might be an apology.

Could you perhaps see it this way; what would she have to do to prove to you that any apology is genuine. Even if she says 'I'm very sorry!' what action would she need to do to make you accept that as truth.

Now; do you think she's capable of that change in behaviour?

If not, then all the 'but I'm really sorry!' in the world won't matter.

My feeling is, you asked her to do one thing; leave me alone. She did not do that. A sorry person would think 'fair enough, Hester's going through a lot, so I will give her some space'. She did not do that thing.

[LookingThroughTheFog]

Hester, it's not being weak. It's that breaking any habit is very, very hard to do, and we've had these habits ground into us since we were very small.

'I must not upset Dad. I must always strive to be brilliant for Dad. If Dad is upset, it is my fault, and I must do better. I think Dad could love me, if I just try a little bit harder.'

In therapy this week, my therapist had me look at the 7 year old me. What would I see if I looked into that 7 year old's eyes, and what would she see in mine?'

She'd assume I was angry; people don't look at that 7 year old unless they're angry. I'd probably will be angry with her. I'm not angry with Dad; I'm angry with the 7 year old for being sucked in by him.

That's how ingrained the habit is; even now, 30 years on, my instinct is to blame the child.

It's not weakness. It's bloody, bloody hard work, rewriting that script of 'I must not hurt them, I must be good to them.'

[Hissy]

Not weakness, no.

Allowing your emotions to overrule pure logic and reasoned judgement, yes.

Can you see past the fog? To see that it would be the right thing to tell me, for example, if it were me here saying about the email?

Set your emotions to one side, and do what you know must be done. Defend your boundaries.

We'll be here to pick up the pieces.

You can get through this! (((hug)))

[HesterShaw]

I told her that to prove to me she wants to change, like she admitted she needed to 14 months ago, she needs to show me she is doing something proactive to do this i.e attend regular counselling to talk through her many issues to stop her taking them out on her family.

Looking that sentence you wrote about trying a bit harder to make your dad love you really struck home. If only I did this, or that, or the other, she might like me more. My brother said once (when we were only teenagers actually) that when he thought of her in his head, it's this being spitting hatred and bitterness. I thought that was excessive at the time, but I see what he meant now.

[DizzyKipper]

If she does harm herself it will absolutely, definitively not be your fault. Everyone is responsible for their own life, including when they choose to be self-destructive. It is not your responsibility to save her from her own emotions. It is also not your sister's responsibility to deal with all the shit if that's what it comes to, she also has a choice of whether to step away. Protect yourself. I don't know if you've read the email or not by now, I know how difficult it can be when you keep thinking "what if". Only it's never what if, it's always more vitriol and hate and we're left feeling sick from it all afterwards. I hope you're ok.

[DizzyKipper]

Crikey, lots more posts in the time it took me to write that. If you still feel the pull to open the email how about you decide you won't open it now? Give it enough time to get over the initial shock of seeing the email to let your feelings subside. It would be better for you to look at this with a clearer head.

[DizzyKipper]

I meant now as in right now, at this particular point in time btw. Not sure if that came across.

[HesterShaw]

Thank you ladies. Have had long talks with both sis and bro (despite his being mental and everything :o ) and they have reassured me I've done the right thing and it's not me, it's her. Sister said she hadn't told me this before as she didn't want to upset me, but mother has been moaning about me for months, about how unsupportive I am about the whole dementia thing. I went up there five times between Oct and Dec 2012 when he was in hospital, I had him for a weekend in March when she wanted to go away, I went up in June to see them (I run a seasonal business so it's very hard to get away in the summer) and I hosted his 70th birthday here in October. She has a selective memory. To be fair, sister did remind her of all these things.

There were two emails there. The first one I deleted. The second one was entitled "Please please read" so I gave it to DH to read. It said "Just to let you know I am thinking of you xxx". I'm not going to reply obviously.

I feel a bit stronger now, so thank you x

[Hissy]

She absolutely won't harm herself.

Unless it was to deliberately hurt you.

Listen to your brother love, your mother is not the person you want her to be, and not the person you need her to be.

Asking her to change won't make her change.

Telling her you've had enough, and that you're done might, just might make an impact, but by caving at the first whiff of a response won't help HER see that she has to put herself out, to change to be allowed to be in your life.

Hold out for more. Be angry, be unreasonable, intransigent, stubborn and as demanding as you wish. You've earned that right. It's about time YOU were Me-me-me.

[Hissy]

Cross-post! Well done Hester! :)