"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a><br />
<br />
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: <br />
<br />
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."<br />
<br />
Happy Posting

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

wobblebeans,

Problem here also is that your uncle is her enabler; narcissistic women like your aunt always but always need a willing enabler to help them.
He would likely back his wife over and above anyone else.

It may come to pass that ultimately you will need to go NC with him as well.

[incogKNEEto]

Thanks atilla it is only due to reading that very post about hoovering that you posted for someone else that I was able to stand up to her as much as I did

It is so helpful to be able to post on these threads and hear others stories, and to know that we're not alone when faced with these awful people.

I know that she'll up the pressure around Christmas as she won't want people to know that her daughter wants nothing to do with her,and that she's not seeing the dc. Although I expect certain people will be told how cruel and unreasonable I'm being

I'm expecting a call from DB piling on the guilt, but by her own actions she has just made me realise I am doing the right thing. I must protect myself and my dc from her toxic influence. I'm still quite surprised at just how quickly the 'concerned' mask slipped (and in public too, she's usually more careful) when I stood up to her though.

[pumpkinsweetie]

Omg IncogKNEETo very similar situation to Hissy !
Surely as grown-ups we can be expected to make our own decisions on who to see, should we choose not to, should be our poregtive!!

I'm also shocked hissy that the police would try to mediate such a catastrophe when clearly you wanted them to leave. It was your home and if someone is on your property & will not leave as you wish the police should take it seriously!!! Again another assumption from outsiders that families can make up, when clearly in most cases it isn't for the best!
Sorry to hear about social services, how scary all of this intrustion because you wish not to see your mother or have her anywhere near your ds!

IncogKNEEto well done for telling your mother where to go, good for you!!!

wombles hello & welcome, i have the same situation whereby it's dhs family that are toxic. Although i don't have it near enough as badly as other posters, i still get the aftermath of ils actions.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

IncogKNEEto,

Was so glad to read that particular link was helpful to you as well, you used that information to great effect in the face of your mother so well done you. Knowledge is indeed power!!.

Ignore anyone as well who tries to call you either cruel or unreasonable.

[incogKNEEto]

You also answered my next question about whether I should contact her again to reiterate that I don't want any further contact with her. I will ignore.

She only needs to come to my town to visit the dentist every 6 months, oh other than the time she got on the bus for a 2hr round trip to post some tictacs through the door for the dc...we had no idea where they came from as there was no note or anything, they were just sat on the mat when we got home! So we binned them, then I realised that they were probably from her.

So the attempts at contact are rare and spread out, and this means they're even more of a shock when they happen. If she tries again I will say I don't want to talk to you, leave me alone, and walk away.

[Wobblebeans]

Thankyou pumpkin. I'm sorry that you have to put up this as well.

Just read the post all about hoovering. I'm not surprised this sounds familiar. DP got a text the other day from dear aunty asking if he is ok, hoping he has a good Xmas, and telling him that there are presents for our DC at my parents house.

He replied saying that yes we are all ok and thanking her. Should we just not reply to this?

DPs nan is just as bad, passing messages on to DP from her about stuff that I've apparently done, but that "she's not getting involved". Well she bloody well is isn't she!

[pumpkinsweetie]

My ils hoover too womble every paragraph matches up exactly!

[incogKNEEto]

I know pumpkin it's eerie how similar the situation with Hissy was, it's like a script they follow! It does help knowing that they are so predictable though.

How is it going with your dh? Is he still resisting his m attempts to reel him back in? It must be so hard for you as well, knowing what they're doing and him not being able to see (the fog is very thick sometimes I know).

[MillyMollyMandy78]

I am shocked at some of these hoovering tactics you have all experienced. However, i can't help feeling like a piece of trash as my parents couldn't even be bothered to waste time on these sort of efforts. I was just discarded like a piece of rubbish. I know i probably escaped quite easily cos i honestly thought she would harrass me for ages, but still part of me feels a bit offended at how easy it seems to have been for her to just let me go. By saying this i am in no means trying to trivialise what any of you have gone through, just trying to be honest about my feelings

[incogKNEEto]

millymolly that sounds hard too, there are different strains of toxicity I think, it sounds like your m wields her power in a different way.

I have read that narcissists can do the cutting you stone dead thing when you stand up to them, or if they have no further use for you. They aren't capable of normal loving feelings, you are only kept sweet to feed their own needs, once you no longer feed that need, they cast you aside

I am lucky enough (haha) to have both a toxic m and mil, and mil has done what your m has done. Once she realised I knew what she was doing, and could see through her manipulations, she cut me out completely. I think it has surprised her that I haven't gone crawling back, dh is still in contact with her (v infrequent though) but she hasn't seen me or our dc for more than 2yrs now.

You have gone NC for a reason (sorry, I haven't read your backstory) and I'm sorry their rejection has hurt you so badly. I don't think it means it's any less painful than anyone else's story, just different for you.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"I have read that narcissists can do the cutting you stone dead thing when you stand up to them, or if they have no further use for you. They aren't capable of normal loving feelings, you are only kept sweet to feed their own needs, once you no longer feed that need, they cast you aside"

Indeed, I have seen all this played out at first hand as well.

(from halcyon.com)

"They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off" [Matt. 18:8]. This means you".

[pumpkinsweetie]

It is inCogKEEto! It's definetly like a script, almost word for word! Especially the typical "i don't know what i did wrong", that seems to be the staple sentence for such people.

Dh is still leaving his phone open to interupption, although so far mil remains unanswered. She did however attempt to phone him today, and he has been a bit 'off' since.

MillyMollyMandy I don't think it matters whether you have a hooverer or cut-out. The feelings you experience are pretty much the same given that it is the past that hurts children of toxics, so whether someone wants you in their life or not it would still hurt either way.

It may be that part of you wants acceptance, and aknowledgement no matter what they have done. Even though deep down you know that will never happen regardless of them being a hooverer or not.

[Hissy]

I'm expecting a call from DB piling on the guilt

incogKNEEto - just say - "I'm not prepared to discuss this' and if they don't give it up, hang up.

Feeling slightly better, but staying away from irritating clients for fear of telling them they are utter buffoons and rude and ignorant ones at that.

Told my cousin, she is horrified.

[LightsPlease]

Hello Ladies :)

Any advice on what to do when you have no contact with mother but still have anger inside you because she has not even tried to contact or apologise to me?

Dysfunctional upbringing, mother had numerous children by almost nurmerous amount of men. Meant myself and siblings had lots of different men in the house (some abusive, violent, gambler, alcoholics etc). Moved home and schools over ten times. Mother had depression, took drugs, writing us suicide letters, leaving us for weekends with small children to party, Has always been on benefits etc.

I tried to move away from the family in a sense, other siblings followed mothers route (benefits, unstable relationships, domestic violence etc) I went to university, always worked, travelled but they are still very much stuck in that jeremy kyle life. They think I look down but I dont I just wish they would do something with their lives.

I got used to the way they lived their lives and I tried to just get on with mine. Bhe would say cruel things to me. Example when I had a miscarriage she said I faked it, always threatening to kick me out so I didnt have a stable home environment. She would say that I made her feel uncomfortable in the house, that I treated her like a child.

I moved out and tried to have minimal contact but she would say she was sorry and blamed her own upbringing but then would continue doing things and I felt she was not learning from her mistakes. Three other siblings do not contact her. One sister is very close and will back her up.

Anyway sorry for going on but this is just a tiny part of it lol. Have been no contact with her but she hasnt even attempted to contact me to apologise for the last thing that she done.

I dont want her in my life as I feel that she is a negative person. If I complained that uni was stressing me out she would say that was my own fault no one told me to go etc.

Even though I know its for the best still part of me wants her to apologise and attempt to make amends for the pain she has caused me. I have no contact with anyone else from my family and I dont know what I have done which is so bad.

Reading it back it does sound like a sob story but I dont really have anyone to talk to about it or who understands.

[MommyBird]

Sorry for high jacking.

FIL has left a voice mail explaining how 'heart broken' and 'upset' MIL that she isn't allowed to see the kids over Christmas.
MIL has already sent a guilt tripping text yesterday.

For the 1st time, i am absolutley livid. I feel like i want a proper row. I've had enough of the 'woe is me'

I feel like screaming. Do we reply or ignore?!!
She was obviously so bothered last year as she organised a time for 8am...and then showed up at 10:30am! With no reason. I mean it wasnt like we was up at 6am and cooking boxing day dinner!

[Meerka]

Are they at all capable of being reasonable? If you explain -why-? Have they listene dto reasonable requests before and changed their behaviour? are they able to change their behaviour?

if the answer is Yes, then it's worth trying. If the answer is No, it's not.

You will know what the answer is.

lights, I'm so sorry about yoru mother. Sometimes it leaves an almost unfillable hole where love should be, when a parent simply doenst care very much about you or even turns on you and blames / dislikes you. I hope you can grieve for what should have been and look at how very, very well you have done. It's possible she doenst like you going to uni because it rather makes her secretly aware that she has not managed to work as hard and do as well as you.

[incogKNEEto]

I will try that Hissy I think DB just wants me to brush it all under the carpet (tbf to him I have done this for the majority of the time all my life) for the sake of a quiet life. I don't have a problem with him despite him being golden child since birth! We have agreed to disagree and just not talk about it, but no doubt he'll be annoyed at me if she phones him up sobbing about how awful I am and how she only wants to see her gc.

Wobble is there any way you could just not go and spend time with her over Christmas? It sounds terrible, Maybe try and avoid the problem altogether by not being there? She'll probably still stir and talk about you but at least you wouldn't have to hear it.

[amazingness]

Lights please - I completely understand your frustration & anger at not getting an apology, I'm in similar situ, but each day it has helped me immensely to use positive self talk to myself, that the apology I so desperately seek is very very unlikely...what do you think it would add to your current life? Would the apology offer closure? I've gradually come to accept that my future is good without their lingering stress hanging around me, & I CAN manage how I interact with them

Not easy though but look how much you have achieved in life in spite of her and be gentle with yourself

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Hi MommyBird,

re your comment:-
"Sorry for high jacking.

FIL has left a voice mail explaining how 'heart broken' and 'upset' MIL that she isn't allowed to see the kids over Christmas.
MIL has already sent a guilt tripping text yesterday.

For the 1st time, i am absolutley livid. I feel like i want a proper row. I've had enough of the 'woe is me'

I feel like screaming. Do we reply or ignore?!!"

Please do not feel any need to apologise.

Ignore it - any reply in kind will have you hoovered, they want a response!!. Toxic parents always want the last word.

[incogKNEEto]

Hello lights have you had any counselling at all? I found it really helped to have a place where I could talk about and process my feelings in a supportive environment.

[Wobblebeans]

I wish I could get away with not seeing her, but we all gather as a family at my parents house for an Xmas eve buffet, and I do enjoy this. Every year, she, my U and their DC turn up late because they had "very important things to do", having obviously already eaten at mcdonalds (they bring some rubbish into the house) and then don't touch anything my parents have put out. Tis very rude. My only hope is that they don't turn up this year but I think that might be wishful thinking...

[LightsPlease]

Meerka you summed it up very well. Theres a space missing. For that 'perfect' mother. Others have said the same about the uni thing.

Amazing..what kind of positive words do you say to your self. I think just to show she cares. The actions just say your not worth trying to fight for.

Incog I have had counselling but didnt find it very helpful tbh. How many sessions did you have?

I think I know no contact is for the best but still makes it hard when you feel alone. Little things like not getting birthday cards, or having to spend christmas with partners family. I suppose it will get easier as time goes on, you guys are testament to that!

[incogKNEEto]

Wow the toxics really are out in force this week, must be the time of year. Such a shame when we should all be able to relax and enjoy the holidays with our families.

Does anyone know how long it is likely to take for the message to finally sink in that I mean what I say and I won't be changing my mind? That I'm not a petulant child having a tantrum, that I am perfectly entitled to decide who I want to spend my time with, that I won't 'get over it's, 'calm down' or realise that 'she did her best'.

Oops, guess I'm still pretty angry not just for me, for all of us who should have had parents who cared

[MommyBird]

We have tried it is allways worse for her.

I had PND and Anxiety with my 1st and my PIL did not help matters! I lost a stupid amount of weight, lost my confidence and all sorts. HV told us to be careful when DD2 was born and do things our way and take things easy.

I found out a few days after giving birth to DD2 that. she'd been telling people the reason i was 'too skinny' was because i had an eating disorder.
That was the final nail in the coffin.

And now i have to listen to how 'upset' she is and how 'we need to sort things out with her because she's gutted she can't see the kids'

Its so hard ignoring.