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Original poster

Thoughts needed on this comment, please, sensitive issue.

246 replies

shipherlady · 03/12/2013 09:50

Please do not read on if you're sensitive to comments regarding rape, I do not wish to upset anybody, just need impartial advice.

Anyway, dh and I having discussion about women's roles, basically, he held the view that if a 'woman does not pull her weight' financially, men have the right to rape them and do what they want in the bedroom. We were having a massive argument at the time, and he is at pains to say that this is what happened in the past ( I question this) and he has no desire to do this at all, but that is 'how it was' in the past when men earned all the money.
OK, now logically, I should be OK with his 'impartial' assessment of the past -even though I disagree with it-however, it's made me feel uncomfortable.
What do you think?

OP posts:
Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 18:02

You said that you would intellectually sympathise with a man who raped your wife. Not surprised you want us to move on now...

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 18:05

garlic correct, but in order for the comparison to work, I needed something that most men lived in real fear of. Despite the fact that rape is horrendous (and I could potentially identify more with being raped than raping) it's still pretty uncommon as far as I'm aware (thankfully). I don't know of a single man that's been raped (not to say of course it's happened and one of my friends hasn't mentioned it) But I'm guessing that many women would no somebody who's been raped, or perhaps have ben raped themselves. The threat has to be "real" which is to say common to have any real effect.

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 18:08

I can see it from the op's point of view - but admittedly (initially) I didn't feel that the op was in any danger of it happening (immediate or otherwise). Again, I was just saying that a conversation about rape - which is how it was initally described (ish) - isn't the same as rape.

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 18:12

Must be hard to see where you're going when you're pedalling backwards so fast Hmm

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 18:13

No, I haven't changed my view. Actually, I have, but only insofar as the op's husband smashes things, etc.

garlicbaubles · 04/12/2013 18:18

I'm guessing that many women would know somebody who's been raped, or perhaps have ben raped themselves - Correct. One in three, or 1/5 depending on your source.

That makes your reducing the topic, on a mainly women's forum, to a weak 'abstract' debate quite a violent act, doesn't it? I assume your username is an indication of your intent here, but exercising your argumentative skills on a relationships thread is despicable.

As to your reading of OP's story as a theoretical discussion about rape - it was as theoretical as a very angry, very burly, bloke snarling that he could smash your face in and nobody would blame him.

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 18:19

So contrarian if you happened to be standing in an awkward position, say while fixing something and discussing money with your wife, and she said, with venom, "I could kick you in the nuts right now," how would you react?

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 18:21

By awkward position I mean in such a way as she could easily kick you, hard, and you wouldn't really be able to protect yourself. Oh and say she was a generally aggressive person.

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 18:22

No, I haven't changed my view

Oh ok, so you would still sympathise with a man who raped your wife?

If you are open to a little bit of advice, I would suggest you don't tell your wife that, if you value your marriage.

What about if he raped you too, Contrarian, I'm interested in your intellectual response. Would you still sympathise with him, or would it be different because it's you?

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 18:55

Intellectually, the argument can't be any different, whether it's you, a loved one, or a complete stranger, that's sort of the point.

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 19:02

Ok Contrarian, you reckon that you would feel sympathy for a man who raped you and your wife.

Sorry, but I don't believe you. I think you would want that bastard punished and if the judge gave you the opportunity to decide the punishment I don't think you would let him off because it wasn't illegal at the time he did it. I think you would either want him locked away for good or castrated.

Am I wrong?

JoinYourPlayfellows · 04/12/2013 19:20

Please people, can we stop turning this into the mansplainer show?

This eejit loves coming on to threads to act the "contrarian" and tell us all a thing or two about why what some man has done to his wife is does not "justify" her leaving, as though he gets to decide.

Just remember that he came onto this board in an INCREDIBLY manipulative thread, clearly intended to bring back to his wife to convince her that his regular attempts to coerce her into sex were entirely within his rights.

He ALWAYS says he's not an apologist for rape. But he is.

Seriously, this is a horrible, horrible man. A dangerous, sexist, woman-hating man.

He gets way too much air time around here, because too many of us (me included) still buy unconsciously into the idea that men's opinions matter more.

ThreeTomatoes · 04/12/2013 19:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 19:25

Well he has certainly made himself look a bit of a twit on this thread, Join so I am inclined to take your word for it.

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 19:25

Contrarian out of curiosity qould you feel the same sympathy for people who kill civilians in wartime, legally, but then lose the war and end up tried for war crimes?

Lazyjaney · 04/12/2013 19:38

"Lazyjaney, if you truly believe that this guy's behaviour is "par for the course in all relationships" you are very wrong indeed"

Oh come off it - I was specifically talking about him being arsey and not apologizing for what he'd said during their argument, as you well know. Anyone who says their DP/DH has never done that is a liar.

But, as I also said in my post, there would have to be more than the OP let on to come to the conclusion she did, and (much belatedly), there clearly is. IMO the rape comment is fairly minor compared to the rest of the stuff she has mentioned, I am somewhat surprised she didn't mention it up front tbh.

Phalenopsis · 04/12/2013 19:40

*I think I have done the same, aujourdoui, I don't honestly know if he could actually sexually attack me. But then I didn't think he'd do half of what he has done: texting other women, chucking things when he can't get his own way, the verbal putdowns.

I'm still coming to terms with it. My confidence is on the floor.*

I was shocked and appalled by your OP Shipher. My thoughts were, so if it wasn't illegal he'd have raped her by now.

Then I read the bit I've highlighted above. I really think you need to get away from this man pronto. Call Women's Aid. You are being abused.

scallopsrgreat · 04/12/2013 19:44

Contrarian, it was women, you know those with the irrational arguments, those who can't keep their emotions in check when discussing rape, who fought and succeeded in getting the law changed. It wasn't men, with their 'rationality' and their 'intellectual' arguments. If women and their irrationality and their darned emotions hadn't fought you'd still be able to rape your wife, legally. It'd still be rape, mind.

And a woman doesn't have to 'justify' leaving their husband. If they want to leave they can do.

shipherlady I hope you are OK. It must have been a shock and unsettling to hear those words coming out of the mouth of someone who is supposed to love and cherish you. You don't need his or anyone's permission to leave, if that is what you want.

DirtyLittleSecrets · 04/12/2013 20:01

"I remember when studying for my LL.B, the lecturer tried (somewhat dangerously) to illicit some sympathy for the first man ever to be convicted of raping his wife. The tenant of the argument was that at the point the rape took place, the man hadn't actually committed an offence (in the eyes of the law). Needless to say, many of the women on the course (otherwise intelligent) weren't able to see his point. Rape is such an emotive subject - rightly so."

I cannot get over how incredible the above is! So, to get this right, the lecturer was trying to explain how the man did something that wasn't illegal and later was punished for it? And because the women in the class became emotional about the topic they failed to understand the lecturer? You say the women weren't being intelligent by acting this way, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you meant they weren't able to be impartial. However, here is where I'm going to highlight what a sexist pig you are.

The women weren't being impartial by becoming emotional on the subject, however, YOU say the lecturer was trying to evoke sympathy for the rapist. That's right, sympathy, and you know what that is don't you? An EMOTION! The lecturer ASKED for emotion, he took emotion into the topic. So what you actually mean in all this, is that because the women didn't feel sympathy with the rapist but with the victim, they are stupid. Men must always be right huh? Their points are always valid and never emotional?

Now on top of all this, I would also ask you, how rational is it to feel sympathy with a man who inflicted pain and abuse on his wife, rather than the thousands of wives who were raped by their husbands before the law changed and had no one to turn to? What about them?

MushroomSoup · 04/12/2013 20:07

Can I just say I completely understand the point that Contrarian is making.

Neither he nor I are advocating rape - he is making his response to a legal situation and then to a moral situation. Perfectly understandable that they can be different.

scallopsrgreat · 04/12/2013 20:12

A legal situation that has nothing to do with the OP and he is also managing to dismiss women's opinions and views in the process.

Women aren't irrational about rape. They are angry. That is a perfectly rational response to rape. And when it comes to rape, men need to stfu and start listening to women.

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 20:13

I was specifically talking about him being arsey and not apologizing for what he'd said during their argument, as you well know. Anyone who says their DP/DH has never done that is a liar.

For the record, I can vouch that my dh always apologises if he was in the wrong, as do I and I am not lying about that.

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 20:22

Mushroom I can understand why a rapist would feel hard done by if he was prosecuted for something that wasn't a crime when he did it. I certainly wouldn't have any sympathy for him though.

lovemenot · 04/12/2013 20:23

My h "mansplained" to me that women who become pregnant as a result of rape, have abortions as a form of revenge!!! It's been quite apparent to me for some time that he is a fw, but I have to admit that this particular comment managed to raise my eyebrows higher than they usually go. He did have a few beers on board, is that an excuse?

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 20:27

God no lovemenot, there's no excuse for saying that.