Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Thoughts needed on this comment, please, sensitive issue.

246 replies

shipherlady · 03/12/2013 09:50

Please do not read on if you're sensitive to comments regarding rape, I do not wish to upset anybody, just need impartial advice.

Anyway, dh and I having discussion about women's roles, basically, he held the view that if a 'woman does not pull her weight' financially, men have the right to rape them and do what they want in the bedroom. We were having a massive argument at the time, and he is at pains to say that this is what happened in the past ( I question this) and he has no desire to do this at all, but that is 'how it was' in the past when men earned all the money.
OK, now logically, I should be OK with his 'impartial' assessment of the past -even though I disagree with it-however, it's made me feel uncomfortable.
What do you think?

OP posts:
MistAllChuckingFrighty · 04/12/2013 16:17

Last message to contrarion

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 16:17

op If you want to leave, you've got enough reason to. The conversation about rape isn't the justification you need.

aujordoui · 04/12/2013 16:18

Are you responding to Contrarian's post or mine there Mist?

MistAllChuckingFrighty · 04/12/2013 16:20

Go on then, go if you don't like it !

That sounds like something this woman's husband would say.

aujordoui · 04/12/2013 16:20

I concur with you Contrarian, in your last post.

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 16:21

Viv No, I don't think so - though of course it might be. I don't believe that men are incapable of discussing rape, I'm just saying that in discussing it, the opportunity to offend/cause distress is dramatically increased.

Mist I think a little self-doubt, in certain circumstances, is a good thing.

Vivacia · 04/12/2013 16:22

OP escalation or no escalation, it certainly sounds as though his behaviour is intolerable and unacceptable.

wordyBird · 04/12/2013 16:23

You're right that it's not the point, ship. (15.55)

On a point of fact, rape within marriage being non-criminal before 91 has no bearing whatsoever on this: basically, he held the view that if a 'woman does not pull her weight' financially, men have the right to rape them and do what they want in the bedroom

Yes, it's always been morally reprehensible. It has always been about assault and control. It has never been normal or usual; and it's never been justified by anything such as 'pulling your weight financially' .

To suggest it was, at any point in history, is beyond ridiculous.

But it wasn't really an attempt at a factual argument, was it. It was in the middle of a vicious row. And the threat you identified earlier was based not just in the words but in the venom, the way it was said to you, and how you felt afterwards.

More importantly: you're now telling us that you've been cursed at, assailed with objects, and called names. This is very sad, if not really a surprise. :(

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 16:25

Mist er, yeah. Given what the op has said, what justification is there for staying? Unless the husband can be made to see the error of his way (and I'm talking about the texting other women, name calling, etc.) then the op sounds as if she would be better off out of it.

Even when I was having difficulty with my wife, I didn't do any of those things though you can imagine that I did if you want

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 16:28

I've never felt sexually threatened before. I have, however, had him throw things in temper countless times and been sworn at and called horrible names

You have never felt sexually threatened before because he has never sexually threatened you before. Now he has. It is a clear threat.

If you do decide to separate, be very careful as that is the most dangerous time to be around an aggressive man. Take your time, don't let on to him until you are actually ready to split.

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 17:03

Contrarian if you and your wife went to one of the many countries where rape isn't illegal, someone raped your wife, then the law changed and he was prosecuted, would you feel sympathy for him?

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 17:11

No, of course not, but intellectually and abstractly, yes. That's exactly my point (and the point of the lecturer).

Don't think for one second that I'm some sort of apologist for rapists. I'm not.

In which country/ies is rape (outside of marriage) not illegal?

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 17:21

Contrarian do you realise that you have just stated that 'intellectually' you would feel sympathy for a man who was prosecuted for raping your wife?

Do you really believe that is an intelligent statement?

What about if it was you that was raped by a man. What if he forced himself on you and caused you physical pain and emotional harm?

If he was prosecuted after a change in the law, would you really think, oh that poor man, he didn't do anything illegal at the time?

MistAllChuckingFrighty · 04/12/2013 17:29

Don't you understand, Faire, men can intellectualise this stuff and women just get emotional. Classic gender division bollocks, innit.

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 17:35

It's all very well to talk about "intellectual abstract sympathy" (whatever that is) when the threat is merely abstract and theoretical. For women the threat of rape is a real everyday present thing and the very idea that anyone would have sympathy, intellectual or otherwise for their rapist is abhorrent.
In any case I would struggle to have any sympathy for someone who felt it was ok to hurt others as long as it wasn't against the law.

garlicbaubles · 04/12/2013 17:44

Ship, throwing things IS domestic violence, especially if those things are personal to you, or the thrown things nearly hit you. The clear message is "I could break you just like I broke that object." It is intimidation by violence. Verbal assault is also intimidation - as was the remark you quoted. It seems clear your husband needs/wants to keep you afraid of him. It has been evident from your posts, even before you said so, that your confidence is now rather low. Living in a state of fear does that to you ... it can make you very tired, as well, due to being constantly on the alert. Does he quite often start the rows? Many controlling types do that, to wear you down a bit more.

I'm very sorry that you're feeling self-doubt. You are not wrong. I think it will be a good idea to call Women's Aid, perhaps just to talk with an experienced person about your relationship.

garlicbaubles · 04/12/2013 17:48

Contrarian, I heard this recently - Men's greatest fear of women is that they'll laugh at them. Women's greatest fear of men is that they'll kill them.

I'd like you get down from your high horse of impunity for a minute, and spare a thought to how women feel when a man says he doesn't identify with the threat of rape like we do.

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 17:49

I've seen people, including men, get very angry in certain stressful situations, and anger is an emotion.

Emotional responses are not confined to half the human race, we all have them. To suggest otherwise is nonsense.

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 17:50

I don't think we're disagreeing here. "Intellectually", or "abstractly" in this instance just means without recourse to the moral implications.

This gets to the heart of what I'm saying - and it did have some relevance to the original post - women (quite understandably) feel (for the most part)differently about rape. Although most of us men will recognise it as idsgusting and abhorrent, it's unlikely, unless one of our loved ones (wife/daughter/mother) has been raped, that we'll think about it with the sensitivity of women.

By way of making a ridiculous comparison AND I KNOW ITS RIDICLOUS BEFORE YOU GET ON YOUR HIGH HORSES, women, although recognising that a kick in the nuts is painful, probably won't worry about it in quite the same way as a man would I felt bad just writing that, but couldn't think of another comparison....sorry

Fairenuff · 04/12/2013 17:54

unless one of our loved ones (wife/daughter/mother) has been raped...

But Contrarian you said that you would sympathise with a man who raped your wife.

garlicbaubles · 04/12/2013 17:56

Why, for fuck's sake, would you be discussing THIS instance without recourse to the moral implications, when it is an instance of a distressed person seeking feedback on her relationship?

FairPhyllis · 04/12/2013 17:57

I said earlier that introducing the topic of rape into a heated argument was a form of intimidating you.

I could not be less surprised to now hear that he also throws things around when he can't get his own way. That is intimidation too. It is meant to say 'Look at how out of control I am that I am throwing things around. I could easily start throwing you around. So shut the fuck up and do what I say.' It is classed as an act of domestic violence because it is such a common behaviour by domestic abusers.

You feel threatened because you are being threatened.

I second the advice about calling Women's Aid. Just have a chat with them and see what they think about the relationship.

garlicbaubles · 04/12/2013 17:57

Let me help you think of another comparison, Contrarian: rape!
Men rape men, too.

Contrarian78 · 04/12/2013 18:00

No, I didn't. I just said that I'd be capable perhaps of intellectually doing so. The situation is so ridiculous as to not warrant too much consideration. What we're trying to do here, is separate the offence of rape into two components, the legal and the moral. It matters because I was labouring under the misaprehension that the ops husband was discussing the matter in an historical context to what end I don't know

As it's turned out, he's comitted many other offences for which she could justifiably leave him. I just was slightly uncomfortable that clumsy discussion about rape made somebody a rapist.

CailinDana · 04/12/2013 18:01

I also find it odd contrarian that you can muster up intellectual sympathy for a rapist but seem unable to summon emotional sympathy for a real life woman who clearly feels threatened.

Would you go on a thread where a black man said he felt something said to him (by someone he knows very well and who has form for aggression) was racist and say you don't think should feel that way, you have sympathy for racists and black people feel about racism the way white people feel when someone makes a nasty comment about their clothes?