Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 27

[CharlotteCollinsinherownplace]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

ponygirlcurtis food for thought. I haven't had a look at the links, but will do so and see if I can glean anything useful from them before posting too much personal stuff. There are some worrying behaviours, you're right that I wouldn't be asking if I didn't find them worrying in some way, but whether or not they are EA, I don't know. I'm more and more able to cope with them and turn them on their head, iyswim, which is what makes me question if it actually is abuse or just him being an arse about certain things. Interesting what you say about entitlement though, I would definitely use that word in relation to his words/reactions to certain things, in his mind he is totally 'allowed' to behave/talk in a certain way because of XYZ. I'll be back one way or another

Muff, you post as much as you want to - or need to! Your posts aren't going to push anyone else's out, and we all have times when we need a little more support than usual.

Not sure I have anything helpful to say about the contact, though. How old is DD? I would be really reluctant to coax her to go against her better judgement. I don't suppose you feel very happy about it, either! Very difficult.

daisee, Fi - I eventually decided that even if I allowed myself to be convinced by that sort of behaviour, it meant that FW was mentally stuck in childhood, incapable of adult responsibility for his own behaviour. And if that were the case, then I'd have to get out of the marriage for his sake, iyswim - it'd be morally wrong to stay married to a child! Not sure how well I've expressed that, but it helped me stay resolute about leaving!

I'm more and more able to cope with them

Trying hard not to project, but just to say that I would've said exactly the same two years ago. Looking back, I see I just settled for very little and tried to avoid flashpoints. It was still walking on eggshells (but I wasn't in fear of a beating, so I didn't see it that way). I had accepted that it was a marriage in name only. I had emotionally detached as much as I could to avoid potential emotional scarring.

I didn't see the behaviour escalating, which I thought meant it wasn't EA. Looking back now, I think he was becoming increasingly comfortable with treating me as if I wasn't there except when he needed something from me (narcissistic supply!).

As I say, not projecting this into your situation, but telling you how I was so that you can compare. And also, tbh, because this is something I haven't thought about. Eighteen months after I started posting on this thread, I am still fighting the "Was it really that bad?" thoughts. I think that's something we all do. And yet, just typing this post, I am hit yet again by how horrible it was at the time. Moments of clarity, moments of fog.

Hello people
Killpepa it is great to hear you sounding so positive and strong. Keep going!

Charlotte even three years on I am struggling to believe I was really so hard done by. Today was horrid as I was clearing out my old home which is being sold and it looks absolutely lovely. I must have been deranged and desperate to walk out and leave my DC with the FW in that lovely family home with all my things in it. Thanks to email records I know how bad it was then, and I have a lovely friend who saw me through it all and she confirms I wasn't imagining it either. But when I was packing up photo albums of family life I was almost crying. How did things go so wrong? I need to spend time grieving I think. This next stage is hard! And the decree absolute is imminent too. needed and

for you, KA. Deranged, no. Desperate, probably. It is so hard when all the abuse is reserved for you - nobody else knows how he can be, who he really is when the mask slips.

I can't remember if you've said in the past, but do your DCs have any understanding of what went on? Or is he a saint in their eyes, too? DD2 was laughing today at something clever FW had said (at DS's expense, but "just a joke") and it suddenly occurred to me that they may never see through the charm.

Thanks for the link Fi, survey completed.

charlotte I really relate to what you said there... not recognising escalation as so expert at walking on eggshells. And the barrier to protect yourself. I thought of it as a concrete wall that got thicker and thicker. I think that's why I've been falling apart a bit now I'm out - no more sticking my head in the sand, I've had to fAce up to it all.

I've read some of that stuff and I'm not convinced what I'm experiencing is actual abuse. I answer yes to some of those questions on the first websites, but only one or two, which can be explained by something other than abuse, I think. I think the two things that worry me most are not wanting me to spend time with my family, but mostly my brother (dh disapproves), and causing arguments, criticising them etc in order to make it uncomfortable between us all; and often using my past (pretty shady ) as a way of accusing me, withholding trust...

These might just be ishoos rather than abuse though, yes?

oh I'm glad Nini - especially if its given you the chance to voice any frustrations and difficulties you could have experienced. I filled it in too as I have a bone about services going at mothers, and even taking children from mothers because they struggle to stay away from persistent father, when its simply a matter of pursing abusive father right? Manage them, rather than blackmail mother to manage the unmanageable... the whole system confuses me!

Y y y to the managing a child as an adult Charlotte I see teen/child behaviours that I think are challenging but should be dropped as part of development into adulthood, and if not, FW develops.

lookout my FW is very similar. It has taken me detaching myself from the situation, not getting involved in the drama and deciding to leave because of his behaviour on so many occasions justified only be ME being the problem. He continues to hold me up as the problem the whole time playing his tiny violin (not a euphemism).
If you feel his behaviour is difficult and you can't talk to him about them without him turning it around and making it ALL ABOUT YOU - he probably has the potential makings of a FW
But then I could just be bitter
Joy of joys my braindead FW sent a bunch of flowers to work today. They were so pretty but obviously I cried and threw them in the bin. Not the affect he was going for....or was it? Who cares!!! Bullying continues. I got home and he says "did you like the flowers" I ignore him whilst playing with the kids. He starts "How mature, can't we talk about it? What a great way to deal with it"
Amazing FWittery - he upsets me (on purpose?) doing something he knows will aggravate me, I don't react, he calls me ungrateful and childish. Well, really, I am just such an ungrateful child EMPOWERED WOMAN YOU !!!

Killpepa your words are evocative. Thank you. Again, I never thought 4 years ago, I would have 2 kids under 4 and be walking out of 'family' to be a single parent. But cheers to that and all the good moments it will bring.

lookout the key to all this is how your DH makes you feel. Does he make you happy? Support you? or does he belittle you and make you lash out in frustration? Keep reading and posting and it will all become clear.

Charlotte my DC are all different. They love their DF and he lavishes money on them (although there are always strings attached to the holidays, the car and the new laptop/phone he offers). DD2 was his emotional support and was hugely angry with me at first. DD1 and DS kept him at arms length (Famous quote from angry DD1 "Dad I'm your daughter not your psychiatrist!")
When he is being entitled and charming and schmoozing into formal events without a ticket or expecting better treatment the DDs laugh and think I am an old misery for disapproving while DS gets upset as he would never behave like that (being a nice unmanipulative lad)

What I offer is not lots in money terms but time and help with practical stuff and emotional support without strings. I think they can tell the difference. I worry I have lost them sometimes but actually they are just busy growing up and being young adults, They always come back when things go wrong

So, you know I said I was going to wait 9 weeks? Well I have a viewing on a house tomorrow. I'm not sure I can do it. I don't want to let my friends down whose house I was due to rent but if I got the house tomorrow then I could move in 2 weeks!!!

tweedle.
DO IT:)
but if its not right, its not right. dont just move because of a few weeks.

good luck!! this is the exciting bit

tweedle the hardest bit was the moment when you decided the relationship was not working for you and in your heart let go. From then on it has just been getting things ready for the actual departure. It will happen quite quickly once things are in place. Maybe this house or maybe another one.
Strength and calm to you xx

I'm coming back to the fold!

I know I've been here before so don't want to get mine or anyone else's hopes up again for me but I'm really feeling like the time is right for action.

I've been talking to women's aid, had another thread elsewhere any everyone has validated what you said that our counsellor is no good for us and is particularly demonstrating exactly why joint counselling doesn't work with abuse. It explains why I have felt more fogged and strait jacketed recently.

Things came to a head today. We had a chat. Fw is not happy that we are progressing quickly enough. He can't put his life on hold forever don't you know! I replied that after all the fat comments it is taking time for me to heal and move on. He said he needs to know how I'm planning on doing this so that he cans see the framework in position. I replied poss individual counselling for me. He mocked me and said that perhaps he needed it too as Ive hurt him too. I replied, honestly, that I thought he'd benefit from it too.

Anyway. Apparently I'm not the person he married and he doesnt recognise me. I'm cold and hard. He doesn't find my personality or body attractive. If we met now, then he wouldn't look twice at me. Cheers. He asked if I was willing to put any effort into improving my body. When I said that no I'm comfortable as I am he said thanks for being honest and he needs to think about that.

The other big sign he's not changing is I asked whether, if we could turn the time back would he still call me fat again. He said that yes he would still need to keep me at a distance and that it was justified as I'd hurt him so much. I asked if he thought it was wrong what he'd done to me, and that however upset he was doesn't excuse it and he wouldn't agree with this. Now doesn't Lundy say the first sign of an abuser improving is that they are horrified by what they've done ?

I'm going to catch up on everyone else now x

Wow bounty. Just wow. There are no words.

Have caught up on you all. Hugs all round to everyone. The thing about escalation and not noticing it, I think charlotte and noregrets mentioned it. Y y y to that! To help me realise that our counsellor has not been helping, I posted on a non relationship thead. And things that would be sympathised at here, and that I thought whilst bad, weren't terrible as at least I wasn't being hit, seem to have other posters shocked and really really worried. Yet is doesn't seem far off normal to me!

colin how are you. You were a bit down last time we 'spoke'. Are things any better?

bounty at your last para, sounds like he is intent on punishing you. I suppose in his mind you really did something (what?) to 'wrong' him. I really think their sense of entitlement and 'rightness' runs so deep that they can't just see that what they are doing is selfish.

I'm really enjoying my new job. BUT. Tonight I got in late-ish, he was sitting on the sofa waiting for me to turn up to make his dinner, etc at some point he started talking about how bored he is... turns out he is bored because I don't 'make' him a social life... It's like he is moving the goalposts, last week he was sneering at me to 'get a job' as it was his biggest insult to me. And I've challenged him on it. Now after 3 days in a new job shouldn't he supportive of me?? I started talking about the project I;m working on which I am excited about he stopped me and said he didn't want to hear/know anything about it. OK, I said. But he's just doing it to prove a point-- it is interesting, and something he would be interested in. Then he went on about (sorry TMI) how he never got any sex (not true...) and I said he was welcome to leave or I would leave if he wanted. I also said why was it just about him, why didn't he ever think of me or do ANYTHING nice to make me happy? and he said for me to shut up, and couldn't I see how depressed he was? Gah. I give up! Just need to keep this job! Sorry, too tired to keep up with the rest of the thread!

eeeurgh!!! Ladies I am virtual hand holding.
The words they say, the things we hear, they are not our truth. They are FW truth which has NO basis in reality.
It's like he is moving the goalposts Damn straight he is because it's his game and he makes up the rules.

bounty, I too was no longer the person FW married etc, it is FW speak for you are no longer submissive and malleable and trying to please me.

Well done on the response about being comfortable with your body. Tell him as he needs to think about that, he can do it elsewhere, out of your house.

But YY to everything about the counselling.

bounty that was part of my EA.
I wasnt the same,
I was fat Im a size 10
I need to 'tone up & work on things'.

It was a actually the straw that broke the camels back. We were trying to make it work but he pushed my buttons too far and I spat back 'Im very happy with how I look actually so if you dont like it then theres plenty of others who will'
That gobsmacked him, the next day I told him we were separating.

Well done for being so strong bounty. He sounds like a twat.

agree with killpeppa he sounds like a huge twat. Lets think about what love should be?
Unconditional
Tolerant
Joyful
Difficult at times with mutual support to get you through
Forgiving
Tactful

It is not about your body - it is about his inability to accept you for you are. Why? Because we will never be good enough for their (constantly changing) high standards.
You'll be too thin next week.

Id like to think that,
' my body is a bit squishier, stripy-er and saggier than before I gave birth twice in one year. Mens bodys do the same all and they make is shit & sarky comments.
Personally- I win