Don't want kids but wife does - is divorce the only solution?

[justthisguy31]

I'm a bloke, aged 31, married to a clever, beautiful, successful woman who loves me, but I'm starting to think we should get a divorce. She seems firmly set on having a baby, and the idea of parenthood scares me stupid. I know how much hard work it is, as the oldest of a big family, and I still have so many other things to do in my life that will be hard or impossible with a child.

We have had the argument, several times, and then talked about it for real, and finally agreed a compromise. If she still wants a baby when I turn 38 (she is 6 months younger btw), we'll do our best to have one. That gives me time to build a better career and save some money, and both of us some years together as a couple, to have fun before we have to live just for someone else.

Are we just kicking the can down the road though?

I wasted time in my 20s on bad ideas and dead end jobs, and it took me until last year to find a career that would fly. Now I'm doing something I really enjoy, that pays well (for entry level) and has great prospects, but I'm still on the bottom rung. My wife, on the other hand, already finished her PhD three years ago and started a very promising, but very intense academic career. Which is to say that if we had a baby now, the only option that would make financial sense is for me to chuck in my job and be a stay-at-home dad. Not exactly what I want to do with the rest of my life.

I'm also biased by my own parents' financial problems. My mum gave up work when I was born, and while my dad has had a pretty good career overall, when I was 10 he hit a rough patch and got into debt. It took the rest of my childhood for them to get back on a stable footing, and they still don't have the comfortable lifestyle they did when I was young. I remember endless fights, totally futile because there's no way to argue bills or petrol prices down, and I can't shake the fear that we'd end up in the same sort of hole. Even worse, as the lower earner (and likely primary child-carer) I'd be in my mum's position. Trapped.

Then from my wife's point of view, 38 or 39 is old for a first child. If it turns out she can't have a normal pregnancy and a healthy kid at that age, it will be my fault for insisting on the wait. Maybe a pregnancy will work out fine, or maybe she'll change her mind about wanting a kid, but if it doesn't happen there won't be any way back. I don't want to risk trapping her.

So I'm starting to think I have to let her go now, while she still has time to find a guy who wants children ASAP. Still not sure though if it would be self-sacrifice, or just selfish. I am sure she'd miss me, and I'd miss her.

I've typed this up more to organise my thoughts than to start an argument, but if you see flaws in my thinking please say so. Tis a forum after all :-)

A friend is having IVF at 34. She has been told she has diminishing ovarian reserve (ie, not enough eggs) and the first round failed because she only produced one, which didn't fertilise. She went through all the jabs, stress, hormonal rollercoaster and expense only for that.

IVF isn't just hard as hell. It often doesn't work, after costing a fortune and putting the couple through hell. And what if your relationship fails meanwhile, and she either doesn't meet someone else in time, or doesn't meet someone who could help pay those costs?

You need to be completely honest with her. No, nobody should have kids who doesn't want them. But nor should you leave her under any illusions. If she wants kids, she's not that likely to have them with you. I'm pregnant for the 3rd time at 39, but not everyone is as lucky... and it's the 3rd, despite my only having 1 child, because in common with a lot of older women I lost a pregnancy. Risks across the board increase - to mother and child - with age. And as they rise, fertility falls. Waiting to 38 on purpose is insane, to be blunt. Especially as most unis have decent nurseries attached and babies cost far less than older kids do, anyway. And there are no financial guarantees in life, either. If everyone waited till they could afford them, nobody would ever have kids at all.

I really don't know why the OP is getting a hard time. Some of the comments are really nasty and presumptuous. He told his wife before they even got engaged that he didn't want kids. She is the one who has changed her mind. He is being honest and consistent.

No one should have a child if they don't want one. That would be incredibly unfair on everyone involved. There is nothing wrong with not wanting a child. Of course, there is also nothing wrong with the OPs wife changing her mind - it happens.

I think the OP and his wife need to have a really serious talk about this and try to reach a more sensible outcome than deferring trying for a baby in 8 years years time.

I would also consider some sort of couples therapy - someone who can help you both organise your thoughts and help you both communicate what you want. They may be able to structure the discussion so that you can resolve this sooner rather than later. (Personally, I would use a trained therapist not a 'life coach' type person )

Best of luck OP, I think you are doing the right thing by addressing this now. I hope it works out

FFs with the child care. If he feels like this you can't argue with that.
If you don't feel like that then that's fine too.
FWIW both me and my dh feel the same way, obviously this is why people who think like this opt for a sahp, amongst other things.
Leave the poor chap alone, he's entitled to HIS opinion as are you.
ner ner ner ner NER NER

Sorry if I offended anyone about childcare. As you can guess, I don't know anything about it. What I meant to say is if we actually had a baby, I would try to look after it myself even if it cost me my job. Not that I'd go for divorce over the childcare issue.

Thanks to everyone who replied, even the ones who think I'm an idiot. I'm going to sleep.

So the baby spending all day in a place where they get very little individual attention would have no effect? What am I missing?

When I was a kid childcare provision was terrible. Stuck in one small room with a chain-smoking childminder, with 4 other kids. Now? They're inspected by OFSTED, they often do more fun and interesting stuff with the kids than my DS gets at home, and a good nursery (qualified staff who want to be there and a low turnover of said staff) can offer really loving and childcentred care. That's what you're missing. And I say that as someone who chooses to be a SAHM with preschoolers. There are bad childcare options, obviously - but you can select good ones. They exist and honestly, honestly I know of two women whose care of their kids is so exemplary I didn't know they were mindees when I met them. They treated them so affectionately and well at toddler groups and were so sensitive and responsive with them it never crossed my mind they weren't their mums. I'm not kidding when I say they're better CM than I am a parent. So, you know - find one of those, is always an option.

I don't think anyone should ever have kids who doesn't want them. Not you, not anyone. It's a huge role and a lot of grind and drudgery is involved. It's also hugely rewarding and fulfilling (at least I find it so) but I think you also need a solid relationship if that relationship is to weather the shock and survive it, and a grudging "okay then" is maybe not the best start to that. I'm not saying you should go for it, not at all. I'm just saying I don't think your rationalisations are fair. The reality is that you shouldn't have to rationalise or explain away a very reasonable and valid desire to be childfree. But I do think being brutally honest with your wife over this is the most loving thing you could do. If she wants kids and never has them that could be a huge, scarring burden in later life. It would have been for me.

I agree about IVF. It's not a fix-all. It's an expensive, distressing, nightmarish, rollercoaster that destroys many relationships.

As I said, two of my friends were infertile by 38. One went through exhausting rounds of IVF that killed her marriage before they accepted the game was up.

Fwiw OP it takes a lot of balls to come into the chicken shed alone.

And I actually admire you for having the integrity to think about this now, rather than just placate your wife with 'not yet not yet' like rather too many guys do.

There's been a lot of squawking. But when the feathers settle tomorrow I hope there's feedback that genuinely helps you.

Sleep well!

Ditto Twinklestein.

rather than just placate your wife with 'not yet not yet' like rather too many guys do.

Exactly. And if it was the DW posting, the overwhelming advice to her here would be leave her DH. She's been given the option to wait until she's 38 and risk not being able to conceive or leave now so she can meet someone who'll give her children now. To be fair, I don't see any forcing from OP.

Saying that, in his position, I'd call a halt probably.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting children, ever, or changing one's mind about having children.

But be honest, seriously. Cut the 'When we're 38' crap and just tell her, 'You know, I don't want children.'

Because even the wait stuff will sow the seed of doubt.

31 is well into adulthood. My ex was 32 when we first split up, but he was always honest, mature and respectful. That is why we were able to have an amicable split and, years later, be friends.

Yes, we went to counselling, too.

It was painful, it was awful, it was dire. But it was what it was. He did not want children, and I wanted to at least have the opportunity to try.

I actually admire you for having the integrity to think about this now, rather than just placate your wife with 'not yet not yet' like rather too many guys do.

Yeah, I came back to say that. He's thinking very much about her interests and not his own here, and it doesn't get much more genuinely loving than that.

You're not an idiot. You're a person who doesn't want kids. And that is fine! Maybe, you will when you are 38, or 40, or what have you. Or maybe not. But being a mature adult means being honest about that, which it seems you have been. Sometimes, though, that means also ending a marriage. That takes balls. But it's for the best. Because, as ex h put it, 'I don't want to live for a future that might not be. Or try to persuade you to do that. And what is now is that I don't want children.'

Yes expat, that was very mature of your ex. . Who'd want the weight of that guilt if things didn't work out? that's why I'd call a halt if I were OP.

...and OP don't split up with your wife, because you are not yet ready for kids just to go and get another woman pregnant within a few months!

C'mon, Stroppy! Ask the mates? You know what they'll say. The dog is too busy looking for a shag and so is the mistress.

I think as long as ou are honest with her then she can make her mind if she wants to leave or not. I don't hint the onus is on you to decide because you are happy wih things the way they are, if she isn't happy then she can Mae that decision for herself. All you can do is be honest and supportive whatever she decides, even if that hurts.

Stroppy projecting much?

If I was a bloke and I wanted a woman's perspective on something then MN would be a good place to start, don't you think?

Stroppy - yeah, because you see lots of blokes in the pub sitting round a pint quietly discussing emotional issues

I've also noticed an influx of men and actually, as a mother of sons, I find it very sad that they have to come here because they can't discuss these things with the people closest to them such as their friends. I hope things have moved on a bit by the time my children grow up.

It seems sensible to leave a marriage b/c you do not agree on having children. If you do not want them and she does, then you are right to divorce.

It seems kinda bizarre to leave a marriage b/c you have ishoos with childcare. Huge numbers of parents both work FT and have perfectly happy, well-adjusted, well-cared for children.

As to your question of why you would work just to pay childcare costs... that's because your career will improve and pay go up if you stick at it! You're paying to further your career, and for a time that may cost all your salary. But clearly in five years you will see the benefit as you advance at work...

Leave if you think it best, of course. But don't leave b/c you have an unfounded aversion to childminders.

I've been on MN 8 years and there have always been men on here! It's not a convent, you know!

OP, as I see it you have two choices. She can't wait till she's 38, that's playing fertility roulette. I actually had two of my five children after the age of 38 but I know several friends who couldn't conceive after this age and it's horrible for them. IVF is not to be recommended, it's physically and emotionally gruelling and the success rate is actually lower than a lot of people would imagine.

So, you either start ttc now or you split up. The childcare issues will sort themselves out. FWIW, all four of my living children attended nursery from a young age. We have had one or two hiccups with different nursery workers but by and large they have been great. Other people prefer to have a childminder or nanny, these are also good options and ones to consider.

You have to decide, what would be worse, her leaving, or you having a baby.
She has to decide what would be worse, not having a baby or not having you.

I don't think either of you is wrong in this. People change and grow as they get older. It sounds like your wife has but that you both have grown in different directions

Are you training as a zookeeper?

Some pointers from your post I think worth addressing are;

1. You say you are from a large family

I am too, and yet I was only influenced by it to not want a large family myself. I couldn't see how a person can split themselves between more children than there are days of the week, and still do it justice! But it didn't put me off completely and I now have a small family of my own. So my point is that you may be assuming your childhood experience will automatically reflect that of your own parenting, and having a smaller family could seriously alter the likelihood that you'd experience the same. My suggestion is to seek counselling to establish whether your experience has damaged you in such a way as to be permanently scarred (and therefore never open to the idea of having your own family), or whether it maybe possible to gain a new perspective and get over your concerns. (It's worth exploring now rather than finding out that you could have sought help, and that you changed your mind when it became too late to etc).

1. You speak of your Dad's career as 'falling on hard times

It's almost as though you assume your career may follow this route too? If your Dad's career had not fallen on hard times I wonder if you'd still feel the same about having children? Any decision based on fears are worth exploring (which brings me back to counselling).

1. You describe as a family being in debt that was never resolved

The same questions arise as in point 2. It's almost as though you assume you could fall into debt too? There is a world of difference between having a low income and being in debt.

I think of my brother as I write this, he's extremely good with money and has very little of it, but has not allowed this to spoil his chances for a family and is currently over the moon with his wife's new pregnancy. My point is that being wealthy doesn't automatically click a button to make you accept parenthood, or vice versa. You may be chasing a red herring (another reason for counselling to be sure!).

As I mentioned, I am from a large family and we struggled financially - I always wanted to be a brownie or girl guide but my parents couldn't afford the uniform so I had I miss out. We always had a holiday to visit family and never go abroad, we always camped in a tent and rarely ever ate out. My parents had one car and so couldn't offer lifts, and so from the age of 11 I was cycling myself to school on an 8 mile round trip each day. Life was hard financially but I see that as a positive because I am one of the most shrewd-with-money people that I know! And it forced me to be so independent it has been a real strength, definitely not a hindrance.

Obviously I am pleased not to struggle that way with my own family, but I honesty don't fear it because I know I can survive on a shoe string and still could offer my children a happy childhood. How else did our ancestors bring up their children in hard times such as the last world war? There are more valuable ways than finances to offer riches as a parent.

1. You speak of your wife's love for you, but not yours for her

It may be that you assumed it would be obvious from your post that you love her just as much, but because its a pretty vital cornerstone of a relationship, you may need to consider this element in more depth than you've alluded to in your opening post.

1. You (and possibly your wife?) make the assumption that your wife would not want to be the main child carer

Parenthood is a strange creature. it does unimaginable things to a person! Motherhood is incredibly overwhelming that way, and I suspect once your wife had a little bundle to nurture, she will want to do exactly that. Whether it involves being SAHM or part time worker, or even full time, remains to be seen. But I'd be really surprised if there was an enduring expectation that you'd be the one to act as full time carer. Really surprised. I'm not sure if either of you are being realistic about that. I'm also not saying being a SAHD is impossible as it does happen, but its rarely the norm and does require a very specific type of parent.

1. You assume you'd be more open to the idea at a certain age, namely 38 year old

You just can't say how you'll view it by then, nor how your career will be. No one has a crystal ball, if career forecasts were that accurate the job centres would be much less crowded!

1. You assume that you'd stand a reasonable chance of having a child as 'mature' (age-wise) first time parents

As everyone has alluded to, a 38 year old woman is likely to have problems conceiving a first child and could even be premenopausal by then. Back to the crystal ball. No one can be sure, just as you have no way of knowing how fertile either of you are at the age of 31! I know if I had to wait until the age of 38 (for someone else), only to find it was too late, I imagine I could struggle with the relationship and always regret waiting.

Fertility isn't like ordering a takeaway, there's no certainty that you'll get what you think is coming to you. Of course the flip side is that some people manage to start a family at the age of 40 and beyond, but again, that really is the exception rather than the rule.

1. You assume that you'll still be together after the long wait for starting a family, when it could be too late to have children

If you have ANY major unresolved difference in a relationship, it will potentially drive you apart in the end. I honestly would suggest that you go as a couple to explore both of your reasons for wanting what you do, and if at the end of the sessions it boils down to just your preference and different life goals, it will fast become evident. I'd say at this point there are too many uncertainties in your decision making process to be sure. It's worth being sure now rather than looking back with hindsight and regret (either with or without children).

You shouldn't feel pressured into having a family if you just don't want one (and never would have wanted one, even if you'd been an only child from a rich family that offered you all you needed emotionally and physically as a child). But equally your wife shouldn't have to sacrifice having children if that's what she really wants. Of course it's her choice at the end of the day, and there is a certain nobility in wanting to avoid 'stringing her along', I do believe many people would be only thinking of their corner and not looking further down the road that way.

But if you do have a child/children, you'd be we'll advised to be strong in your relationship first, as parenthood is very hard. And in my opinion the most rewarding job a person can ever do. But that is my opinion and you'll find many who disagree. No one would disagree that it's really hard though.

So, the bottom line is, I'd suggest you enrol on a RELATE course to explore your issues regarding a family. If they are simply your preference and not a surmountable fear, then fair play. But I really would check that out before letting a loving relationship go. Life is too short and they're hard to find!