Money and MIL - advice needed (sorry it is quite long)

[shil0846]

This is more about my mother-in-law, however it is starting to affect my relationship with my husband and I would really appreciate some advice.

My father-in-law died last year leaving a lot of debt, but also a lot of valuable art work. My MIL also had a £15k credit card bill on which she was paying masses of interest. When she was widowed, she couldn't afford to keep paying the interest and was desperate. We therefore paid for the funeral and also took £15k out of our mortgage to lend it to her for 3 months to give her time to sell some of the art work. We are paying 4% interest on this.

11 months later she hasn't sold anything. I have sent pictures of items to auction houses to get them valued, but when I tell her what they say she tuts and says she paid far more than that and she wouldn't sell for such a low price.

The added complication is that I had a baby 6 months ago and we need the money back to buy a bigger place (we're in a tiny flat) and to fund my maternity leave. My MIL is aware of this (I have told her as plainly as I can without upsetting her). Her reaction is to apologize and say that she is ruining everything...yet she just doesn't sell anything. Most recently when I raise it she's started telling me how lucky I am to have had all this time with my DS, as she went back to work when my husband was 4 months old.

I generally have a good relationship with my MIL, but am starting to resent the fact that my family is suffering because we paid her credit card bill. I also feel duped. My husband gets really defensive when I mention it and reminds me that she's lost her husband and he's lost his father. So we end up arguing.

I know that the grief is still raw and suspect she doesn't want to part with any possessions she bought with her late husband, but I'm desperate to spend longer with my DS and could do so if she would only pay us back.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Xx

OP, I can totally see why you are feeling so bad about all this, because you seem like a nice person who treats others the way she would like to be treated and anticipates the same from them. The difficulty is that some people take advantage of that and see anything they get as a result as fair game. I fear that you MIL is one of these. She probably genuinely feels hard done by from the death of her husband and by any suggestion of reining it in, because there has always been a magical solution till now. But she is an adult and everyone in our society since 2008 should be at least dimly aware that if you keep relying on easy credit, sooner or later problems come your way.

I think the issue of trust is one to pursue with your husband. It is, unfortunately, true that having trusted him, he has been letting you down. Any woman on ML is vulnerable and has to be able to trust her partner to do the right thing, or she and her child(ren) are at risk financially. He needs to really understand how this has made you feel.

I am not a big fan of the looking fluffy approach, but it does seem to me that he has been thinking of his mother as vulnerable, without thinking that you and your DS could arguably be even more so given the way things have gone. I would keep working on this point and, to counter the notion that you are being hard and unfeeling towards your MIL (you aren't, by the way) emphasise your concern for your own future and your son's future and that you need to be able to trust he will look after you. That is going to mean some pulling back from the level of 'looking after' he can offer his mother.

Of course, if it comes to it, you can be tiger mother (as with the will) and defend your DS as is needed. But the point is you shouldn't have to. I hope your DH is starting to see some of the consequences of his blindness to the needs of his own family.

So....... are you going to change the ownership and your Will or are you going to wait . . . . . and wait . . . . and wait . . . . for him to not get round to speaking to his dm . .. . . . . and for another few weeks slip by.

You need to make this change for him to see how serious you are . . . otherwise you are doing exactly what he and his mother does . . . lip service with no action.

I was going to post similar to myBOYS, keep the pressure on him, he needs to realise that you are serious. Your DH needs to realise that you will not allow him to take the easy route, which is to appease his mother by getting you to back off (the comments about you being mean etc to her are designed to do that, maybe not consciously but it is there). Make it difficult to him to do that, be firm and do not give in, you need to be more 'trouble' to him that his mother.

Fantastic idea on changing the ownership and wills. Do you have separate savings etc? Make sure that any assets are in joint names.

You're doing the right thing OP, it must be hard thinking this is a lot of trouble and stress over £15k, but I think what you need to realise is that this is about far more than that. If you back down you are basically giving your MIL carte blanche to ask for your family money whenever she needs to pay off her excessive spending. It will not stop and if you don't get DH to see that then this will affect your life forever and your children's too.

Yes, this. This times a thousand.

There is one more thing I would say. I've posted on MN over the years to say my husband is one of the loveliest people I've ever met, that I trust him completely, and that we're very happy. All of which is absolutely true. But you know what? We married because I wanted marital rights to the house if he left me for someone else when we had kids. That simple. Studying law, you read case after case where men had diddled women who adored them out of property after years of happy marriage. Similarly, his life insurance is in trust to me, so if we ever split I could continue the payments and be guaranteed the money, and vice versa with my insurance. Neither one of us could ever subvert that money even if we fell madly in love with a new person, left, and wanted them included. Once in trust, we lose all control over where it goes, even as the person named on the policy. Is that because we don't trust one another? It's because in my opinion from studying what people do to one another when relationships collapse - an opinion that has been reinforced in steel and concrete by reading so many threads on MN over the years - you can't trust ANYONE but yourself when it comes to love or money, not totally. Protecting your child's interests in that situation against not just a rapacious MIL but a potential Heather Mills of a step-parent should you die young is just... sane.

Protecting your child's financial interests means protecting your own. And your DH has, very sadly, shown he won't do it. I agree that therapy as a couple, and a session with a financial planner (you sell that to him as trying to find the best way forward to secure your MIL a safe and solvent future) should be most salutary for him. But your intentions when it comes to securing your baby's welfare, should the worst ever happen to you, is I think so, so sensible. And given how impossibly hard that conversation has to have been for you, I'm actually really in awe that you still had it, so as to ensure your baby inherited your assets if the worst ever happened and not the feckless adults related to your DH.

You are such a very nice person. It's so bloody unfair you've been forced into a corner in this way, just to protect your own child from exploitation which will damage his childhood.

Good luck through this week. It does sound like emotions will be running high, it being the anniversary.

Well done OP. I agree that the 15k is not worth ending a marriage over. But you do need to establish the boundaries regarding finances- particularly the remortgage. It's not reasonable for your partner to just decide to give a large part of his/your income to his mother. And not because she really needs it, but to allow her to keep a big house. He will need your signature so just say no.

I still suspect her finances are a giant mess and the best thing her son could do for her is to help her sort that out. He needs to get all the info, debts, assets, income and work out what her situation is. It may be that the remortgage is a non issue if he realises she just can't afford to keep things going. A hypothetical situation is not worth ending a marriage over!

Oh, and I think getting your own legal advice is a great idea. As is having a bank of your own with some cash in it.

Why not use the member of Dh's family classic car wedding gift as a bargaining chip?

Say to DH if he agrees the sale of it, the money from it can fund your mat leave and you will wait x time for the repayment of the 15k.

Also, in the long-run don't you think it really would be kinder to her to relocate to somewhere more set up for when she becomes really elderly?

The other thing that you might want your DH to consider is, what if your MIL meets another partner?

I know that it might seem impossible right now, but I have witnessed the grieving-parent-meets-then-rapidly-moves-in-money-hungry-partner at close quarters and it was not pretty...if she makes a second marriage then that spouse will have a claim on any assets, including those which you may have effectively funded.

The other thing that you might want your DH to consider is, what if your MIL meets another partner?

Very very good point. My ex best friends dad did just this.

Her mum and dad had agreed that exBF would be left everything in their mirror wills, so they left everything to each other and then to her. Then her mum died.

Her dad is now being taken to the cleaners in no small way by a harpy who is refusing to divorce her husband because she doesnt want to give up her right to his money and property when he dies. He wont divorce her because, I suspect, she is stringing him along that she may come back to him one day. ExBFs dad was talking about changing his will within 6 months of meeting this woman as he didnt want her to be homeless, she wasnt even living with him!

When I last spoke to ExBF this woman was still on the scene 5 years later and merrily working her way through her dad and late mums assets. I knew her mum very well and she would be heartbroken at the way her dad is not protecting his DDs interests in the name of getting his leg over.

One of our relatives got a new boyfriend at 87. He's her toy boy.

She'd been married over 60 years so it was a bit of a shock.

Is your DH fussed about you cutting your ML short, or does he sort of see that (and DS) as your issue, not his?

I'm still flabbergasted at this thread and the cheek of MIL.

Really, showing your DH this thread would be the best way to convince him of your case; when it's just the two of you talking, it's hard to counter his arguments without sounding heartless towards a poor widow. However, it's absolutely clear to outsiders that this is quite untenable, and you're being exploited financially here. Not only that, but he is effectively putting you and your child(ren) at the bottom of the priorities pile.

Would it be hard to show him the thread? Would he object to your asking others for their views? (Not that he has any right to feel that way - it's a sanity check and a useful exercise.)

People do have to downsize; it's a fact of life. We aren't entitled to maintain a lifestyle forever, and if circumstances change then everything else has to change too. And of course, as many people have said, this won't get better; it will get worse.

What seems surprisingly difficult for DH to get his head around is that this poor little old lady has far more assets and disposable income per head than you do. That is totally not to begrudge what she has, it's hers and you don't have a right to a penny of it, but it's fair enough to begrudge giving her yours as well! If she were in dire straits I'm sure you'd be the first to put your hand in your pocket as you sound like that sort of person. She is not, however, in dire straits or anything like it (yet).

Thing is, a family is about people loving and caring for each other. You can't buy a family. Giving MIL wads of cash in order to keep the show on the road is not how a family works - not any family worth keeping together, anyhow. You are purchasing her, and by extension her son's, goodwill. It's kind of sad if you feel you need to do that.

I remain of the opinion that DH is handicapped by his upbringing and by ongoing manipulation, but that there is hope for him if he will take those blinkers off. Getting him and MIL round a table with a good financial adviser, as someone suggested upthread, sounds like a possible way forward. If a respected professional is telling him these things he may be more inclined to listen.

I think you're right, Annie - DH has a perception of protecting his elderly widowed mother - which is a fine concept in itself but actually, financially, she needs advice and "restructuring" as the support and protection, not straight £. You are probably "knowledge rich but £ poor" about how to resolve her situation - he can support her by passing on knowledge or arranging for advice better than by giving her £ and he is still being a good, protective son by doing that.

Would that angle help his "guilt"?

I am in my 60's and can appreciate how hard it is for MIL to give up the family home she has lived in for years HOWEVER I am more afraid of debt, and at my age unless I can afford something within my means and income I don't have it.
I have 4 sons and I would never see them go without or get into difficulty if it is within my means to help them or their partners.
The Op's MIL is very lucky, she has a caring family, sons and grandchild(ren). Why, oh why is she putting mere objects (albeit valuble ones) above them and their well being?
The OP is in a difficult position, her DH has been "shaped" by this woman and her lifestyle, and she has to go gently to make him gradually realise, that this behaviour that he has grown up with to believe is normal is just sheer utter selfishness and is not the way normal and loving parents behave.
The Op is doing well, she obviously loves her DH and does not want to rock the boat too much with regard to her marriage and her relationship, as she said the money is not worth it. However her DH must be made to see that his Mother's attitude and behaviour is not normal and is just pure selfishness, and to that end I think the OP and her husband need the intervention of a third party possibly a financial adviser or a counsellor to make her DH wake up to his Mothers manipulative ways!

You poor love, OP, I am so sorry to hear what you are going through. All I can do is reiterate that you have to stand your grounds because it isn't just about 15k, it is about protecting your future and your child's future.

Great post from perfectstorm.

Now you're a mum (cliche alert!) you have to look after your kids in the run-over-by-a-bus-tomorrow situation.

In your shoes, I wouldn't trust your DH to prioritise the roof over your DS' head, over your MIL's house/artwork/classic car. So I think changing your will is absolutely the right thing to do. Well done you.

shil0846 What if you was to die tomorrow? What then? What would your kids inherit? Would they get nothing because of the rising debt?

You need a declaration of trust put in place. You need your will/pensions/life insurance/house etc updated. In the event your dh does not sort this out but this can so quickly snowball. An extra loan, a missed mortgage payment, remortgaging...and what if your MIL suddenly needed a care home? private nursing care? Caring for the old costs a huge amount. You'd be f^cked.

Do not back down. Get this resolved as it will tell everyone in this family you mean business.

And yes this is really really worth the toll on your marriage.

Unfortunately, I can totally relate to this thread. . My lovely, wonderful DH is similar to the OPs DH. It drives me crazy.

All my DHs family have to do is phone my DH up with some sob story and my DH gives/lends them the money. Everyone is SO, SO embarrassed and it's all done in a secretive way. We are fortunate in that we can afford to lend the cash but I think we should have the loans formalised or, at the very least, have a discussion about a repayment plan. If they genuinely wanted to repay the money I don't see why they would mind but my STUPID but lovely DH won't instigate it. Seriously WTF! We may get some of the money back eventually but we will definitely loose thousands and thousands.

It makes me angry but I feel powerless to do anything about it. I think it crept up on me and, like the OP, I didn't think my DHs relatives would behave so badly and that my DH would be such a mug. If I 'insisted' my DH do something I honestly don't know what would happen. I really wish I had spoken out years ago.

We don't go short but this does fester beneath the surface of an otherwise very happy marriage.

Sorry to use this thread to have a vent but I thought the OP might like to hear that ignoring this type of situation isn't always the best way to go. I think she is right to try and get this resolved.

OP I have been in a kind of similar situation where I could see just how manipulative his mother was and how dysfunctional his family but DH was blind to it all. He had utter loyalty to his mother and very little to me. It reached a point where I seriously considered divorce. I told him he needed to choose between me or his mother in terms of his ultimate priority.

Thankfully my DH did turn out to have a backbone and he stood up to his mother. And as time went on the scales started to fall from his eyes about his mother and now he sees her as clearly as I do. He still loves her but is no longer blind to her. And funnily, since she has been rumbled by him she has stopped her nasty little games and manipulation.

I was prepared to divorce DH over the issue. I needed to know me and the DC's were my DH priority even over his mother. It was not the sort of marriage I wanted otherwise.

Shil, I think you're absolutely right to get the assets protected in your son's name and tell your DH exactly why. It's all very well DH saying that you and DS are his priority- his actions, however, clearly show that that isn't true.

I'd be glad he's shocked. He needs to be shocked.

Was that ^^ a post from the MIL?

No, a recommendation of a MIL/DIL book. Sofurcough seems to have posted it on at least one other thread, and I guess spamming was suspected.