Just need some opinions on whether this is normal?

[funnymummyspeaks]

My DH and I have been together a long time and have two DD's. Our youngest is under 3 and has never been a good sleeper and as a result I am constantly tired (DH is too but refuses to admit it and stays up late every night watching tv). I have also recently returned to working FT which I am also finding exhausting. To cut a long story short, my libido has taken a nose dive ever since DD2 was born and DH likes to moan about this (alot). We probably only ever get down to it once or twice a month at the moment and generally that is when I feel under duress to perform as I hear lots of little digs about how hard this is on him. I have been told (apparently as a joke ) a few times that 'this is why men cheat on their wives, and he regularly accuses me of rejecting him or not fancying him instead of just understanding that I am extremely tired and just want to relax/sleep when I am home from work and the kids are asleep. It has also been known to cause rows when he will be sulky all day without telling me why and then eventually blow up that it is because he has needs and is not 'getting laid' enough! Last night, I was falling asleep on the sofa because I was so exhausted and when we went to bed I was ready to crash out. He decides to start watching a programme and at the same time starts attempting to get things going. I have to admit that because I was so tired, I completely ignored his advances and in actual fact, rather than getting me going, he actually irritated me as I felt it was extremely selfish of him to ignore my tiredness and try to stop me from sleeping in order to satisfy his needs. Anyway, fast forward to this morning when he was in a terrible mood and was snapping at me and generally being unpleasant (he is not a morning person), I told him that he needs to try to be less grumpy in the morning because it is not fair on the rest of the family and once again had it thrown at me: 'if I got laid more I wouldn't be this grumpy'. Writing this all down I realise it doesn't sound very good but, I do love him, find him attractive and he is my best friend as well as husband and I don't want to lose him.... I am simply tired and all this pressure does nothing to help the return of my libido! AIBU or is he? Am I alone in this?

I don't think this one is tricky at all.

The op is having sex twice a month that she doesnt want with a man who is bullying and threatening her into that sex and more. Very clear cut IMHO.

He wants sex with her even when he knows she doesn't want it. For me that would be the relationship dead and buried right there. No-one who cared about another person would behave like that nevermind be perfectly capable of being aroused in that situation. It is horrific of him.

Dahlen put it much more kindly.

Before anyone starts I don't believe the men don't care about emotions just have sexual needs rubbish I don't agree with that either, abusive men don't care. Nice ones do and sex with a nice one is much more satisfying and exciting for a woman.

So she is not giving consent? She is threatened in to it? Then it's the police? Right?
No need for a discussion in your opinion?

I think the OP needs to be frank With what she wants. Him taking more responsibilities, support with her exhaustion, understanding.
If he has been able to get away with doing little domestically and with the kids. Then he may think this is the norm. He may think that the amount of sex has gone down, when he tries it on she isn't interested and therefore doesn't fancy him. (Not knowing he is contributing to this).
He needs to be made aware of his role in the change of intimacy.(although he should be more aware)

If a man can't be satisfied with sex twice a month and resorts to threats of affairs then there's more to it than him feeling neglected. Why any decent man would want to harrange an exhausted woman with a baby that doesn't sleep bamboozles me and why he wants to force her into sex also does, what a turn off, whether male or female.

The OP has noted my earlier post in which I said, he sounds like he just likes getting his own way, clearly it's more to do with that than his uncontrollable need for sex.

In any relationship compromise is important but I reckon it's him that should be doing and not the OP, he's lying watching TV while she tries to catch up on lack of sleep then harasses her, it's clearly selfish behaviour on his part, almost like he feels he has the right to take from her regardless of her wishes.

I can't believe some of these posts, ie, he clearly loves the OP - if he loved her he'd be doing his best to help her, not intimidate and threaten her with sex with someone else, ffs.

As I said sexual abuse is not a crime treen.

Offred - I thought if you were threatened in to sex, it was a crime?

Stop hijacking the thread with your crap treen. In what way is this helpful? Are you implying that wives should only demand that husbands do not commit criminal offences against them and that other than that anything goes?

No, unfortunately sexual abuse of this kind is not necessarily a sexual offence.

Would you like to have a debate about whether it should be or not?

Sorry I'll leave the thread. I just wanted you to clarify your language. It can be a sexual offence. I think sexual abuse is tricky to make a crime but I think it should definitely be regularly reviewed and researched for possible future changes to the law in this area.

Treen hijacking the thread? Pot, Offed, kettle and black...

Treen isn't talking about the op's situation, simply trying to goad me, passive aggressively. All my posts have been about the op's situation despite them being admittedly numerous.

The op is having sex twice a month that she doesnt want with a man who is bullying and threatening her into that sex and more. Very clear cut IMHO.

Ofred

Offred, yes your posts have indeed been about the OP, it's others who are trying to pull you in another direction!

There is nothing as sexy as a man who gets up with a sleepless child throughout the night. And a cheerful who sorts the kids out on a weekend whilst their poor mother has a lie-in is fanciable as fuck.

More men should realise this.

I don't think the DH is terrible to want more sex. I do think the way he is going about things is isn't right though, obviously.

I don't blame OP for being tired and not being in the mood more often. It's so hard with small kids. Libido takes a battering However if the youngest child is and the eldest is (approximate guess) 5 then that's potentially quite a long time that things have been "off track" to the husband at least.

Maybe it's obvious but OP and DH need to work out a way they can at least try to compromise between them. I don't think it's helpful to simply say "OP is not in the mood so DH will have to lump it" nor is it helpful for DH to be so unpleasant with OP.

One question though, are you on the Pill? I found that this dampened my libido a lot Maybe if you are, an alternative method is worth a try.

I think you need to set aside an evening to talk about it. Use whatever cliched counselling tricks if they help - eg setting a timer for three minutes where one partner gets to speak without interruption and then it's the others' turn. Try to think of how your DH could best help you to get in the mood and outline it to him so he is aware. Often men see no connection between volunteering to do a nappy and getting some sack action but there is a correlation as another poster has identified already!

You have two small daughters to think of. Please don't let this drift without trying to repair things, for their sakes at least. It's always ideal that children have both their original parents together where possible, and your relationship doesn't sound like it's terribly in trouble as such or other non-negotiables eg violence, so it could be repaired and back on track for the future with some effort from both of you to compromise.

Offred you obviously have some kind of man-hating agenda here and should focus on the OP.

No, it is not sexual abuse if she has sex with him out of a feeling of duty, because she knows he wants it. She does reserve the right to say no. He might be nagging, whinging and generally handling this relationship problem in a very poor (and quite typically male!) way, but he is not forcing her. There has also NEVER been an indication that he realises that his wife is going through the motions and not enjoying sex (I'd be willing to bet that she fakes enjoying it, since she's doing it to get him off her back - so to speak). He is unlikely to think that his wife is pretending to enjoy having sex with her husband.

There is nothing 'victim' (whatever supposed victim there is here!) or woman blaming about saying that when a couple have mismatched libidos, they need to sit down and have some frank and honest communication about what is going on. Him nagging and whining and her throwing him the odd shag to get him off her case is not healthy.

We're all busy. We all have lots going on in our lives. Sex and relationships have to be prioritised and worked at. Expecting the DH just to piss off and toss himself off for the foreseeable future is not a workable option. The fact he keeps saying that she doesn't fancy him and that he feels rejected is his rubbish way of trying to tell her how he's feeling.

Talk to him, OP. Set aside some time to be together in an intimate but non sexual way. Get the romance back. With sex off the table, you might find that you feel more like it straight away.

Have you read the op's posts?

I don't think it is me that has a man hating agenda.

I'm expecting the h doesn't pester and bully and threaten his wife into sex he knows she doesn't want.

The reason it is sexual abuse is that he knows she doesn't want it and not only is he happy to do it to her, he isn't satisfied or appreciative, just grumpy and entitled.

Here is my 2 pence worth.

Having being in the same situation than the OP, I can tell you that this is a very difficult situation to be in.

All this discussion about whether the OP's DH is sexually harassing her or whether it is sexual abuse or not is very interesting for me now that I've passed that stage
I can tell you that, when I was in the mist of things, it would have depressed me, made me feel even more guilty and would have pushed me to accept to have sex with him more often. The result would have been clear. I would have ended up depressed and a lone parent.

There is nothing more difficult to handle than being pestered for sex by the one person who profess to love you at a time when you are vulnerable because you are so exhausted.
It might not be a sexual crime. It might not be rape (and certainly do not think it is) but the feelings of guilt and disgust that it created in me have been at times very strong and very real. I believe that these should not be brushed under the carpet anymore than the 'man's feelings' should be ignored.

In a 'good' relationship, the person who has a need who is unmet (here the DH) would go and talk to his partner (here the OP) to see what is going on. Is it that she isn't attracted by him anymore? No it's not. It's tiredness. (All of which the OP has already told him lots of time).
This is the point where I would expect him to say 'Oh OK, what can I do? Where would you like some help? If I do X or Y, does it help you?' Or even better, decides all on his own to do X and Y as it clearly will help his DW. So she will feel less tired (a nice thing to do for a loved one) and he can get what he wants (more sex).

The issue here is that he hasn't done that, has he? No he just winged and complained and some posters are now saying to the OP that she has to go and talk to him. That she has to do some concessions. That she should propose a romantic night out that she will have to organize. That she has to try and talk to him (which she has done I am sure) like an adult.
Why? Why is the onus on her to improve things?
Why is it that she told to treat her DH as a child (eg Often men see no connection between volunteering to do a nappy and getting some sack action) when he is an adult just as capable as her to make that sort of relationship. He is already acting like a child, with all this sulking and winging and threats. I don't think that treating as a child even more is going to help.

youvegotmail
You are completely mistaken. Having a romantic night out isn't going to help the OP. The only thing she would be thinking about is her bed and a good night sleep. It's not about a lack of romance and 2 people having lost the spark. It's about one person being utterly exhausted and her partner refusing to take that into account and accept it.
What would you say about someone who has ME and her partner expecting to have sex with him regardless of her energy levels? Would that make sense? No it doesn't. No ore than it does to ask the OP to just have a night out and get on with it.

We're all busy. We all have lots going on in our lives. Sex and relationships have to be prioritised and worked at. Expecting the DH just to piss off and toss himself off for the foreseeable future is not a workable option. The fact he keeps saying that she doesn't fancy him and that he feels rejected is his rubbish way of trying to tell her how he's feeling.
Actually I would expect the DH to actually care about the exhausted state of his DW. I would expect him to not have taken 5 years (if this is the age of their first child) to realize that when the OP says she is TIRED, it means she is indeed T.I.R.E.D and not just that little bit of tiredness that goes away with a good night of sleep.
I would also expect him to listen to the OP when she said it has nothing to do with not being attracted to him.

I mean the OP HAS listen to him. So much so that she has agreed in numerous occasion to have sex even if she didn't want to.
When has he shown that he listen to her?

Nobody said anything about a romantic night out. I said - and stand by -that the OP needs to take some time with her husband to reconnect as a couple. At the moment, he sounds like an inconvenience to her.

Yes, having young children is tiring. It's tiring for us all. Yet there are still things that we have to do. I suggest that making one of the most important relationships in your life a priority should be near the top of that to-do list.

If that means TALKING to the husband about how she feels and how this is affecting her, then yes, I think this is a good thing. I don't care how many times she has told him she's attracted to him - if my husband didn't seem that keen to have sex then I think I'd feel pretty rejected regardless of what he said about being attracted to me.

The OP actually hasn't said anything about her husband not helping enough or him being the reason for her tiredness. That's been projected onto this story by others.

Sex doesn't have to take hours either - a quickie can be fun and spontaneous and sexy too. Most people I know with kids have a bit of a staple diet of quickies, and only the odd longer session when they have time!

I just don't think telling the OP that she is being sexually abused is helpful (and pretty offensive, by the way, to anyone who has suffered real sexual abuse). Her husband is going about the dialogue all the wrong way, but the OP is shutting him down most of the time, and shutting him up (with a duty shag) the rest of the time. Telling her he's a cunt and she should keep on going like this except more, because he should be behaving better, is helpful. They need to communicate more. OP is the one posting here with the problem so yes, she should be the one to raise it with her OH. It sounds like he's ham-fistedly trying to raise it quite a lot anyway.

is not helpful, that should say.

I'm surprised nobody has told her to LTB yet, but that mentality is here, and it's not helpful when what we actually want is a repaired relationship, not a wife who came on thinking that her husband was an insensitive nag and goes away thinking her husband is a vile, sexually abusing, selfish prick.

Well said, Lady. You post doesn't insult funny or men in general, which the time-travellers have managed to do over and over again.

To clarify: The idea that men to insist they 'need' sex with an unwilling partner insults them; it literally implies that all men are potential rapists. The idea that men are incapable of seeing how a loved one feels, and caring for them, insults men by implying that men are less than human (indeed, less than primate.) The idea that men don't realise their partner's run off her feet while they're in the same room, likewise, insults them by assuming they're spectacularly dumb and selfish.

A committed feminist, I know none of these things are true of men in general. It seems odd that posters accusing me & others of a 'feminist agenda' are the very posters insulting men so grievously.

OP ... There are nicer men! I hope you can give yours a massive reboot but, if not, let him fucking "go elsewhere", he's a boor.

Actually, youvegot, she IS being sexually abused. She's being verbally & physically harassed for sex, and threatened for it. Would you deem that acceptable behaviour from a co-worker, say, or a man in the pub? If not, how does "loving" someone entitle a person to give them LESS respect than a passing acquaintance?

I have been sexually abused. I've posted about it often. That's how I know.

www.gov.uk/domestic-violence-and-abuse#domestic-violence-and-abuse-new-definition

I'm not saying funny should go to the police. I am saying she's suffering coercive behaviour: "an act or a pattern of acts of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish, or frighten their victim."

If coercive behaviour becomes a pattern that impairs a victim's normal freedoms and rights to enjoyment of life, then it becomes a crime.

I'm posting this not for you, OP, but for the benefit of other readers who might be feeling confused about the 'tricky areas' and blurred lines put forward by some posters above.