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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Support for those in Emotionally Abusive relationships: thread 26

999 replies

CharlotteCollinsismovingon · 13/09/2013 20:55

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
A check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
Why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
Warning signs you’re dating a loser Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie If you’re a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out - You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
Heart to heart - a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

What couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
Should I Stay or Should I Go bonus materials This is a site containing material for men who want to change - please don’t give him the link - print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
What you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

OP posts:
MrsMinkBernardLundy · 08/10/2013 11:30
  • ask them not how much theya re worth but how much equity v debt you have that is- basically how big are the mortgages.
ninilegsintheair · 08/10/2013 12:08

This is an interesting listen about DV abusers if anybody feels strong enough (Warning: potentially triggering) - Victoria Derbyshire - The Abuser's Tale

Happy birthday icepole! Wine Thanks Cake Smile

Rose, you sound so much better off without him. Keep it up - it's all worth it. Ignore him when he says you're the abuser - you most certainly are not, and it's a classic abuser trip to deflect from themselves. Much love Thanks

Big wave to Nora! Long time no see, but good to see things are on the up for you too. Smile

I need to get a plan to leave him. I could easily slip into my usual inaction, complaining about him all the while. What a waste!

YY thatsnot, I also need to do this. Complaining about it is so easy in comparison to actually doing something.

icepole · 08/10/2013 12:26

I have no idea, I need to find out.

I keep wondering if it will be worse for us if he's gone.

MrsMinkBernardLundy · 08/10/2013 12:26

rose that reminded- from Lundy- the abuser looks in the mirror sees his face is dirty and tries to clean the mirror.

MrsMinkBernardLundy · 08/10/2013 12:55

nini that made me feel quite sick. not because of anything that happened to me but because it happens at all. Sad but I have to say most of the time when I was listening to them I was thinking liar, liar. All the one off incident, I just lost my temper stuff. aye right.

ninilegsintheair · 08/10/2013 13:26

Exactly my thoughts Mink. Esp the guy who blamed it on his retirement. Seriously WTAF.

Hanbury · 08/10/2013 15:24

Came out of an exciting meeting on a high yesterday to find a sarky text message about the fact that I had left a very small amount of the soap bar in the soap dish and opened a new one... this is not the marriage or partnership I dreamed of when I was younger!

Saturday night we had a big argument over the smallest, stupidest disagreement - but he always has to be right and I cant just let him think he's right when I disagree with him. I can blame some of it on the fact that our DS had an accident that day which was my fault (briefly, I put him in his bike seat, but hadnt propped the bike up properly and it fell over :( feel really dreadful about it still), so we were both stressed and tired after being in A and E for the afternoon. After a failed attempt to put things right betwen before bed I went upstairs and after sitting blankly for a bit I started taking pictures of his bank statements! I was so determined to leave.

But on Sunday morning we were back to normal behaviour and pretending we didnt argue at all. And on Monday, even after the stupid soap text, we had an afternoon session of DTD... Dont know if I am coming or going and its not entirely his fault, half the time I love him, the other half...

Argh...

MrsMinkBernardLundy · 08/10/2013 18:54

Good news from Charlotte Moving day went really well and have had lots of kindness from friends nearby - me who thought I had no real friends! FW ok till today when he lay into me a bit while picking up DF3 - brain was detached but body went into high alert. Just had lovely call to WA and feeling much better, but missing all u guys. Please pass some or all of this on on thread. Should have internet end of next week, so see u all then.

arthriticfingers · 08/10/2013 19:37

I liked the guy on 'The Abuser's Tale' who said 'it' - he never his mentioned violence or abuse by name - was all because he was so caught up in in caring for and providing for his family that he became a violent abusive FW Hmm
This was the same guy who was 100% sure he would not 'lose control' (a phrase he repeated frequently) again because he had 'become aware of the destruction an abusive relationship could cause' ... no FW you caused the destruction - all by yourself Angry
And, I am sure I was not the only one who recognized the use of modal verbs 'I might have hit her' and the overriding use of passives with 'she' as subject 'she got a black eye'
f*ing tossers the lot Angry
However, the guy who said he was abusive because 'I didn't fink I had done nuffink wrong' at least sounded fairly genuine. And, it is what they all think. :(

Lucca22 · 08/10/2013 19:53

Laugh at them, they hate it. They want you to scream and shout because that's how they get their kicks, sick, I know. Most of them are insecure, narcissistic, nobodies and the fact you are reminding them of that when you laugh at them really hits them hard. Mirror, mirror!

MrsMinkBernardLundy · 08/10/2013 21:04

Hanbury you are allowed to still have a sex drive. if you want to DTD you DTD. The fact that you like him sometimes does not mean that what he does is not wrongSad

ninilegsintheair · 08/10/2013 22:30

Exactly right arthritic. I also didnt like the way several of them called their partner 'the wife'. FW does that and the lack of humanisation annoys me, makes us sound like a possession.

So good to hear Charlotte's doing well. Very heartening. Thanks Mink Smile

TheSilverySoothsayer · 08/10/2013 22:38

Women are naturally very good at conversation analysis, and these points will not have been lost on the listeners who are women.

Men, however, and v likely those who abuse, probabaly wouldn't even notice that they do the same things when they themselves speak.

TheSilverySoothsayer · 08/10/2013 22:39
  • many of the listeners who are women.
icepole · 09/10/2013 11:44

I scraped the car. I am always doing this. He will be furious.

TheSilverySoothsayer · 09/10/2013 12:11

As a fellow car-scraper, I send sympathy, icepole. I always feel mortified when I do it (also reverse into things Blush ) - even now (there is a scrape awaiting repair atm) We mostly had 2 cars, I well remember borrowing his and returning with a scrape. He was not best pleased - not furious, but made me feel like an incompetent idiot (which, tbf, I was already feeling like!)

There isn't much you can do except weather the storm, and observe his technique of being furious.

icepole · 09/10/2013 12:16

I am rubbish in the car, but it's not deliberate. I just have crap special awareness.

foolonthehill · 10/10/2013 12:43

and your ability to park won;t be helped by the expectation of his ire.

Don;t worry....damaging a bit of metal does not make you a bad person., or even that clumsy, but there is no doubt that stress, preoccupation and tension make tasks like this harder for most of us

ninilegsintheair · 10/10/2013 15:25

Big hugs Icepole. Totally get you about waiting for the inevitable ire over something you made a mistake about, but best you can do is rise above it (or simply play some nice music in your head when he starts whinging). Brew

If it helps, FW is always the one who knocks our car but is convinced he is an 'excellent' driver. The trouble with FWs is that regardless of anything, in their eyes no matter what they do they are always right (and better) than you. Coming to terms with that knowledge does help.

On a similar note, we are remortgaging in preparation for December and I'm terrified about my debt. He's already given me an earful when I owned up to what I owe to the broker, so I've been on edge all week and feel sick. Even had a cry to myself when alone in the office yesterday. Ironically this has been made worse by his discovery the same day that he's owed a nice tax rebate. Irony, eh?

ninilegsintheair · 10/10/2013 15:29

On another note, all this week FW has had to get the train to work - like he used to before he started his new job at the beginning of this year. It's frightening how quickly he has reverted back to his old ways - 'accidently' waking me and DD up when he goes (ages before we need to by the way), leaving for work a good half hour earlier than he needs to (why?), not doing anything around the house, from feeding the cat to opening the curtains so I have to do literally everything.

I'm starting to remember how rage-filled it made me and how much it also made me realise that aside from being pestered for sex (and having his stiffy pressed into my back as I'm trying to sleep), it was like being a single parent.

JayRo · 10/10/2013 23:10

Hi - just need to get this out. Not posted on here before and have nc sorry.

H has withdrawn support from DC2 pregnancy because I want a HBAC with a doula after birth trauma with DC1. He refuses to contribute to cost of the doula or to be my birth partner, yet still thinks he can come to 'make sure I'm safe' ie push for ELCS during my labour.

He has told numerous friends about DC2 pregnancy because I told one friend (as I had to bow out from bridesmaid duties for her!) Now I'll feel stupid revealing our 'big news' at 12 weeks.

H keeps bringing up money talks when I have told him I'm only prepared to discuss money once a week due to his obsessively checking our accounts. He's just cornered me again about money tonight after I came in from walking DDogs. I snapped at him and came up for a bath.

Can't bring myself to get out and get in bed with him. Probably pregnancy hormones but I have got the RAGE. Just wish I had my own room.

I'm sorry this is very ranty, one sided and not considered from both points of view but it's just how I feel tonight. Why do I have to stand up for myself against my own H ffs?

thatsnotmynamereally · 11/10/2013 05:01

Jay how can he 'withdraw support'?? Ridiculous! What is he trying to achieve by that... he may be stressed by the thought of financial pressures etc due to another child but as you well know, it is no excuse for acting like a d*ckhead. Don't blame you for the rage. It is out of character for him?

Nini sympathy! Why do they seem to enjoy causing distress... mine is the same way, his thoughts/needs are more important than anyone else's.

Your 'car scrape' stories got me thinking about something that happened about 15 years ago- I haven't had anyone to talk about since it happened. Sorry this is probably going to be long.

Backstory-- we started out in central London but with 2 kids we knew we couldn't afford to stay in our tiny flat and couldn't afford to upgrade in our area. So we decided to move out. For about 2 years we lived outside of London and H commuted in, we'd found a house that we bought as a 'project', it was livable but totally shabby and we had such high hopes of renovating it into a lovely family home. We could just afford it, 1 hour commute away from London by train, but we had no money to do the renovation.

H's work was on projects abroad and went on trips quite often, about once a month, leaving me alone with 2 DCs aged 2 and 4 for 5 days at a time, in a house that was more like a project. And every time H went away he would come back furious with me for something one time I remember it was because I'd stripped the paint off of a door frame, he was furious because he hadn't told me to... anyway for whatever reason the typical pattern became that I would expect to be b*llocked for something every time he came back.

One day when he was due to return I had scraped the side of the car on a post opposite our house. It was a very narrow road and sharp turn. I shouldn't have done it but... of course I hadn't meant to, and (in my defense) could have been worse just cosmetic damage and no other cars involved. That night I had to pick him up at Heathrow (2 kids in the car, late night why he didn't just get a taxi I don't know but I always had to pick him up, which meant waiting at the airport, etc. In retrospect I have no idea how I managed, thought I was superwoman, I did everything, FFS we didn't even have mobile phones in those days so lots of waiting/story tapes in the car for kids). Anyway, he saw that I'd damaged the car and was furious that night.

So the following morning he just wouldn't let it go, was still furious and I felt awful. I remember a huge argument with him, I kept saying to him that it was just a bit of cosmetic damage, but he didn't see it that way, was very important to him that the car looked good.

Next thing, DS came into the room telling me that DD had fallen out the window. The kids had been in the next room (hearing us argue). Somehow she'd been sitting on the cill and the (ancient) locks had come undone and she'd fallen headfirst onto the street one story below. It WOULD NOT have happened if I had been paying attention to the kids and not arguing with H.

So worst nightmare of any parent's imagination. But after 2 weeks in intensive care, then a big operation and a few more weeks recovery DD was fine ( BTW she is truly fine. We were truly the luckiest people in the world). BUT. H never forgave me for the car. He used to point it out to other people and tell them what a sh*t driver I was.

I was thinking about this earlier when reading here about cars (NB he will NEVER talk about 'the accident'... DD had follow up appointments for a few years afterwards, all OK now, she has a long scar under her hair on the top of her head but otherwise no evidence, I joke about it once in a while but if H hears he gives me a filthy look).

I thought about that argument. So tonight I asked him 'do you remember our old car, when we lived in ***. do you remember when I scraped the side on the post outside the house?'

OMG. He immediately got furious with me and 'yes you pretended you hadn't done it but I knew you had...' and went on for ages about it. I said to him 'do you remember what happened the day after you found out about it?' and he had no idea what I was talking about. So he never associated what we were arguing about at the time with what happened. I think he's deleted it from memory-- but at least he never blamed me specifically for what happened.

After that... we sold that house, moved back to London, I got a job and life went on. BUT I don't think we ever worked through what had happened, not sure if it would have changed things. Looking back, wish I'd had something like MN back then. I couldn't talk to anyone about it because I just looked like a cr@p neglectful mother.

I'm more annoyed now that he remembers the car in such detail-- obviously more important to him than people!

arthriticfingers · 11/10/2013 07:45

That's so sorry :( for your DD and so glad to hear that she is ok now.
Your story is pure unadulterated FW. Angry
These are nasty, nasty, horrible men Angry

JayRo · 11/10/2013 11:20

Thats - how awful it must have been for you Sad These men truly are unbelievable. Could your H be saying he remembers the car and not DD's accident to try to antagonise you in some way? Hope I'm not causing offence by asking you that - I just can't believe he would forget iyswim. Sad

Re my post last night, H won't support HBAC/doula with DC2 because he feels that I am taking too many risks with my and DC2's health by having a homebirth; also because he reckons that I want my doula to replace him, which is so far from the truth. I want her there to take care of the practicalities and to be my spokesperson and stand up for me if needed so he can be there as my H and my real support!

As far as H is concerned, it's a matter of 'if you want to do it this way I won't be your birth partner - go to MLU or for ELCS and I will.' Which is disappointing but it's his choice - many Hs aren't birth partners and my doula will be fantastic, but she won't be him. Sad

However, he is talking about having DM and DC1 at home during my labour as 'his support' Hmm and how he'll be 'coming in to make sure that you're okay - if you need to go to hospital I won't have any messing around'. I don't want any of that - the midwives and my doula can see to keeping me safe if he doesn't want to be involved; DM is going to have DC1 at her house and if H doesn't want to be my birth partner he can bloody well go there for support! I just don't understand how he thinks threatening to intervene this way would make me feel safe and reassured - why does my giving birth have to be all about what he wants and what makes him feel safe???

He won't contribute to paying for my doula because in his eyes it would be tantamount to paying for risking our health and he knows it'll be bloody hard for me to raise the money alone - I'll do it though.

Another rant from me there Blush - sorry and Thanks

thatsnotmynamereally · 11/10/2013 11:54

Jay he remembers the accident, we all do, but it's not a major issue in our lives now (this is my lovely DD who just started at uni- Oxbridge Smile I am so thankful for everything good in our lives, could have been so different, but thanks to luck and fantastic medical team she thrived) but in my mind I clearly associate it with the fact we were arguing in the next room and I clearly remember what we were arguing about whereas to him it was an accident that happened because the house was not secure and I wasn't watching the kids at the time. He doesn't remember it as 'the argument before the accident'. But he continued to point out that scrape/dent as long as we owned that car as proof that I was a bad driver, and I was surprised yesterday that he still remembers it so strongly.

WRT the birth he needs to be prepared to support you in whatever form you need. Ridiculous for him to refuse to pay to blackmail you into doing it 'his way' but I know how fraught these things can be even though he may have genuine concerns about your health he cannot deal with it by bullying you into something you don't want. You'll be resentful and more stressed as a result which isn't good for any of you. least of all the baby. But it sounds like you have plenty of time to firm up on plans-- (if he isn't a bully all of the time) is there a chance you can talk him around? Hope you can relax and enjoy yourself, not the easiest of times in any case!