Gutted: Is this the begining of the End?

[Contrarian78]

I've happened across these pages by accident (looking for a review of something I was buying) but have read with interest the advice that's given.

I'm a mid-thirties (34) male who is married (9 years) with two children (7 and 3). My wife and I have been together for 16 years and have, up until recently I think, always had a pretty solid relationship.

The one area we do seem to struggle with though is sex. Our sex-drives are massively mis-matched. I try to be understanding and of course we always march to the beat of her drum - which I sort of accept (even if I resent it a little) as there's nothing that would turn me off more than knowing she's doing it out of a sense of wifely duty - we fell into that trap (and never really got out of it) after our son was born.

My wife and I both work full time and split domestic duties evenly (honestly we do!). Having recently realised that we were in real danger of going our separate ways, we have decided to make more of an effort. She acknowledged some things - which was great, and I've made a real effort to not pressure her and be more romantic.

The 'problem' now is that it all seems a little 'forced' it doesn't quite feel natural. I sympathise with her becasue she's damned if she doesn't and damned if she does, but it feels like she's making more of an effort in order to protect the lifestyle we have and not disrupt things for the sake of the kids. I apreciate that, but I honestly don't think she'd choose me if we met today.

This is all made harder because I still fancy her rotten and she's such a kind person. Certainly I'd never cheat on her (we've only ever been with each other) but I do sort of wish that she wanted me as much as I want her. She admits she's not a particularly sexual person. We've done some pretty amazing stuff over the years (though I always feel I have to push it) but it's only when she's had a drink - which makes me a little sad if I'm honest.

Sorry for the long whinge off. It's sort of cathartic to get it off my chest. I feel bad becasue she's lovely and we have really made a good life for ourselves. But at what point might you realise that a split is inevitable?

Hmmm I'm surprised how many people are in favourite of you leaving, you've got two small kids and you both work, even if you are doing your bit, it's still a lot to cope with for you both. What about love in all this? You need to have more honest talks about how to fit more couple time in your schedule, does she want to go away more, go out for dinner more etc? What gets her in the mood according to her? As for the sense of feeling forced, imo you should get over it a bit, when you have small dc, even getting out the door requires military precision. Don't get into a situation where your heads are ruining every encounter for you both. You need to talk more, and ruminate on it by yourself less...

I have been in your wife's position.
The marriage is over, of my volition, because living with an overgrown child who pouts, thinks they deserve to be fucked if they do the dishes, thinks they have a right to my body etc etc became untenable.
He became just one more thing in.the long list of demands from kids, work and home life.
I stopped responding to hugs or handholds, because whatever I did do, it was never enough.
I genuinely believed I was asexual;
i'm not. with my current partner we have a fantastic sex life.
How often do you want her to fake desire and initiate sex for you? What has been the longest dry spell?

How often do you want her to fake desire and initiate sex for you?

Have you read the thread? That is exactly what the OP does not want. He wants to be wanted, not to have something to wank in to.

We are making a concisous effort to have more couple time, but (as I've said before) it starts to feel a little forced. My wife does go out for weekends with her firends (probably 2-3 times a year) and we go away together a few times a year. I go away on my own less often - but that's because, like many blokes, I'm not good at arraging things.

I definitely don't want her to fake desire (what's the point in that) and that's what makes this so distressing. I guess we all have things we want from a marriage. My wife (I'm sure/hope) likes the security, the house, the kids in private school, her own financial freedom (she does work 30 hours a week) the cars, and all the rest of it. I like those things too, but would probably live without them to a greater extent than she would. I just want to be in a relationship where there was an engaging sex life. OF course I need more than that, but that's really important to me. I can't help it - anymore than she can help not really being that bothered.

I agree with Moomintime: We have got into exactly that situation - where we over-analyse.

He wants to be loved at the moment he is tolerated as part of the wife's lifestyle

He wants to be loved at the moment he is tolerated as part of the wife's lifestyle

Exactly, and the lifestyle is a lot more important to her than to him, which doesn't help things.

But it's back to square 1. He cares too much about not getting any and his DW senses that and is probably even less interested.

I think if you're going to stay OP, you need to properly abandon the prospect of a love life and let other things fill that gap. Maybe if your wife senses no interest from you whatsoever, it might have the opposite effect on her...

Hmmm. I'm you're wife. Not much sex drive. Knackered a lot of the time in my case. I adore my husband and fancy him, respect him, feel hugely affectionate to him but just don't want to have sex often. No amount of talking will make me want sex more because in my case I think my ebbing desire for sex is a normal part of the ageing process (I know it's not for everyone but it is for many of us). I'm 47 by the way but this started in my 30's. I think of it as a biological thing and accept that one day my husband may leave me for someone more enthusiastic about sex. What's to be done? We all feel we're entitled to the full package these days and many people value sexual fulfilment above family stability and loyalty. I think you have 2 choices: accept the status quo or leave. Remembering of course that a fan sex life with someone else doesn't guarantee friendship, loyalty and respect. Or love for that matter.

I've suggested exactly that. She won't even consider a sexless marriage (she says SHE doesn't want it)!

I only suggested it because I could honestly see that it was/is jeopardising an otherwise decent relationship. I think She's also worried (I think) that if she agrees to that, I'll simply go elsewhere. What I was proposing was for me to stay and raise the kids with her (see out the marriage contract as it were) before eventually finding my own way. No sexual contact with her (or anyone else) in the meantime.

Of course that's ridiculous, but that's how desperate things had become. I should point out that I don't/didn't suggest the above as some sort of threat, but rather as a genuine proposal to overcome the problem.

it can take several conversations to get to the non-confrontational one that makes a difference, especially as this is a tough subject to be honest about. She may be able to help not being all that bothered, that's why I say, talk to her more about the mechanics of what increases her drive etc. she does know or can find out, she needs to admit/realise the things that work for her. It is not faking desire, it is being mindful to do the things that let you prioritize it.

Those surprised at advice to leave (not sure there has been that as such, more an acknowledgement that that's where it could be heading) I can only assume you've never been in a relationship where your partner didn't want to come near you?
I'm sure if you don't get it then talk of leaving seems extreme but it's not just about sex it really isn't.

Having said all that ^ Contrarian - I'm a bit more puzzled by your latest posts.
You left her to initiate as she requested (brilliant) and she did so within 2 weeks? In a busy household with young children that's not that bad, not when she is generally reluctant anyway. So the fact you acknowledge she only initiated the sex anyway due to the 'palpable atmosphere' is not a good sign at all.
It certainly doesn't support what you've said so far about just wanting to be wanted.

keepit I have read the thread.
He wants her to initiate. She does not feel desire. Ergo, it must be faked.

You can't force someone to want to shag you. Doing it out of a sense of wifely duty, or because your partner Will be pissed off if you don't, makes things worse in the long run. Did for me, anyway.

There isn't an easy answer, but working, childcare and responsibilty for the home are all demands. When sex or intimacy start to feel like just another demand then desire dies off.

Kelly exactly, 2 weeks? I actually laughed at that.

You are showing, with your "palpable atmosphere," that your oh-so-reasonable wish to be wanted is actually a sense that you have some right to sex. You don't, nobody does. There is nothing less sexy than pressure, whatever form it takes.

Sorry just caught up. I really dont think you or she should accept that her sex drive is an unmoveable, unimproveable thing, it doesn't sound like she is either, as she's not willing to take it off the table. I'd leave the doubts about her wanting to maintain your lifestyle off the table altogether, that sounds like your self esteem issues talking, understandably. Focus on the real problem. Have some hope, things aren't unrecoverable.

Minifingers: You're right. We are conditioned to believe we can have it all. I wonder the extent to which I'm venting; because even though it's destroying me (bit by bit) I'm not convinced my situation is unique and I'm still not at the stage where I could see myself disrupting my family. That said, it's difficult to shake that feeling that you want/deserve to be wanted. What worries me most is that ill put it to bed, and somebody else will reawaken that side of me.

I take my marriage vowels seriously, and I'm absolutly and hopelessly in love with my wife (though it's being slowly chipped away). I just don't want to decide to stay (which I think I have) and then end up cheating on her. There'd be no way back from that.

You don't "end up" cheating, as if it's out of your control somehow!

Choice is involved.

keepit I have read the thread. He wants her to initiate. She does not feel desire. Ergo, it must be faked

Yeah, when you put it like that...

...sorry, I'm too busy empathising with the OP to be subjective. Will step away now.

This is really bothering actually.
That you would sulk or brood to the extent of causing a 'palpable atmosphere' within only 2 weeks is at total odds with what you've been saying so far.
You did not leave her to initiate it as she asked you, you simply used another method of letting her know her choices were not your choices and therefore unacceptable.
Set in contrast to the way you describe yourself here this leaves a bad taste and you're, IMO (and you can see I have been very supportive up thread) coming across now in a very unsavoury and less than honest manner.

I shoud point out that it over two weeks (but admittedly less than 3). I'd done all of the things I was asked to do - in fact she acknowledged that during that period she did not do a single domestic chore (which is why I know that it makes no difference). I know I can be unreasonable when I haven't had sex (I'm not sure if it's not a build up of testosterone) but I do really try and keep a lid on it. She senses the problem and things deteriorate pretty rapidly.

Oddly enough, I'm not convinced I'm the one that's creating the atmosphere (I've lived with less sex than I'd like for some time). I think She recognises it now - whereas before she'd have just thought I was being grumpy. She then acknowledges it, it becomes a "thing" and the house becomes a miserable environment.

Please don't think I'm makeing this all about my wife. It isn't (though it'd be easier if it was).

Even for people who are capable of completely divorcing sex and emotion, a truly great sex life starts in the head. 90% of it is psychological. It is all about the build up of desire and anticipation, so that sex becomes a release of that tension, rather than an act performed in isolation.

As part of a relationship, the psychology matters even more because while familiarity can remove the need for certain elements (e.g. no need to dress up and go out for a night on the town), it can also result in small annoyances producing catastrophic effects on desire (e.g. nothing like picking up your partner's dirty socks to kill libido if you're feeling particularly put upon that day).

If there was initially a good sex life and it lasted for longer than the honeymoon period, I think OP and his DW need to ask why that's changed. If the DW had desire before, it can possibly be resurrected. If, however, it was only there during the initial courtship, it was probably never real and this current state of affairs is the reality the OP needs to either learn to live with or move on from.

If the DW had desire in the past but has lost it over time, I think that's a problem that could benefit enormously from counselling - both separately and as a couple.

How much of the DW's inertia about instigating sex and experimenting with it is down to lack of confidence or deep-rooted ideas about sexuality and how much is down to simply not being that into it? It would be good for the DW to deal with that for her own benefit, regardless of what happens in this relationship.

OP if you decide you can't live with this situation, I think it would help you to frame it differently in your head. This isn't about sex. Like I said earlier, it's all in the head. This is about wanting to feel cherished rather than tolerated. Sex is simply an expression of that. Counselling for you could help you to find other ways to 'accept' love that aren't based on sexuality. That could help. However, if your DW genuinely doesn't find you attractive anymore, the relationship has become platonic and the sort of love between friends is rarely enough to sustain a long marriage unless both partners tend to find sex unimportant.

Despite your eloquence on this thread, I suspect you and your DW have a problem communicating. I imagine you get accused of discussing things too logically, which she interprets as a dismissal of her feelings and shuts down from as a self-defence mechanism. Counselling could really help with that, and emotional intimacy helps lead to sexual intimacy.

Good luck.

As much as I apreciate the "tea and sympathy" and I definitely find it useful to discuss this with others (I'd never be able to do this in real life and my wife would hit the roof!) I don't really mind if people point out that I'm being unreasonable. I don't want to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth butI'm happy for people to understand how I really feel.

I could (and I've seen others do it on here I'm afraid) contruct a scenario whereby my wife seems totally unreasonable and I'm entirely the wronged party. Whilst it's great that I've felt I've had some support, I wouldn't want it to be given on false pretences. If I'm being a bell-end, please feel free to say so. I'd sooner that than have everyone telling me what a cow she is, becasue I've not presented the full facts (as I see them).

I'm going to go against the grain here.
I've been with DP 21 years, and we have been where you are. Smallish children, I had NO sex drive, DP felt unwanted. I didn't know what I felt. We argued a lot, and IMO were often close to separating. But, we persevered. I stopped using hormonal birth control, the kids grew up and DP was patient. I did sometimes have sex out of duty. It kept us going.
Now, several years down the line our relationship is MUCH better. We don't argue, we make love A LOT, the kids are older and less demanding, everything is better.
I am glad that we kept going. It was often hard. But things are much better now.
I'm not offering any advice, you need to do what's right for you, but sticking with it worked for us.

I know I can be unreasonable when I haven't had sex (I'm not sure if it's not a build up of testosterone)

This build up of testosterone, does it lead to unreasonable behaviour against colleagues? Random women in the street? Your dad? Your kids? Or just your wife?

Bugger: deleted response to previous post!

It's a general shortness and has certainly never manifested itself as physical violence. I'm afraid (if I'm honest) it affects everyone - to some extent or another. It's not an issue for my wife and kids other than that I become (for a day or two) "Mr. Grumpy Pants" and they tend to stay out of my way a bit. It then passes, and I'm back to normal.

Now for the bit that's really going to light you tampon strings and out me as being an utter moron

When we are getting along and have had a run of decent sex (it has happened) she'll often remark that I'm like "a different person" or that I seem "very relaxed" or that I've got a "spring in my step"

I think to myself (and have mentioned it on one occassion) it's because we're having good and regular sex (which I feel you're engaged in) and that puts me in a better place, which in turn puts you in a better place, which means the whole show stays on the road. She's aware (and this is at odds with the "I want to be wanted" (which I do)) that it's the only thing I ask of her (I can (and do) do everything else for myself).

In order to keep my wife happy I (gladly) do any number of things - from paying the mortgage/fees to stroking her (she loves it). the only pleasure I take from doing those things is that I know she apreciates them.

I think in your wife's position I would ask you to leave. Not because I didn't love you or wanted to end the marriage but because from my perspective yabu. you have young children and busy lives and some areas have to temporarily take a back seat. sometimes (often) it is sex that has to sit in the back. your wife cant win here. at the moment she is being pressured and feels she ha to give in for the long term security of your marriage. you resent that because it feels forced. it is forced. you are forcing it because if she doesnt you will continue to make he feel inadequate, leave or cheat! I couldn't live like that and as your wife I would cut my losses now. sorry sex is never that important shortish term. you won't explode if you don't get any y'know. I couldn't live in the atmosphere you describe (and are causing) and it would turn me off even more.

Have you considered also that if you broke up your marriage it could be years before you found some on else (paid for aside) so your position would not improve? Or perhaps that your wife is going through a normal ebbing of desire and you would find yourself in the same position a few years in with a new partner?

oh and the two weeks of doing everything she asked comment really annoyed me!

"Now for the bit that's really going to light you tampon strings".

No, it's not what you wrote after that comment that shed some light on your character.