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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Gutted: Is this the begining of the End?

580 replies

Contrarian78 · 20/08/2013 14:03

I've happened across these pages by accident (looking for a review of something I was buying) but have read with interest the advice that's given.

I'm a mid-thirties (34) male who is married (9 years) with two children (7 and 3). My wife and I have been together for 16 years and have, up until recently I think, always had a pretty solid relationship.

The one area we do seem to struggle with though is sex. Our sex-drives are massively mis-matched. I try to be understanding and of course we always march to the beat of her drum - which I sort of accept (even if I resent it a little) as there's nothing that would turn me off more than knowing she's doing it out of a sense of wifely duty - we fell into that trap (and never really got out of it) after our son was born.

My wife and I both work full time and split domestic duties evenly (honestly we do!). Having recently realised that we were in real danger of going our separate ways, we have decided to make more of an effort. She acknowledged some things - which was great, and I've made a real effort to not pressure her and be more romantic.

The 'problem' now is that it all seems a little 'forced' it doesn't quite feel natural. I sympathise with her becasue she's damned if she doesn't and damned if she does, but it feels like she's making more of an effort in order to protect the lifestyle we have and not disrupt things for the sake of the kids. I apreciate that, but I honestly don't think she'd choose me if we met today.

This is all made harder because I still fancy her rotten and she's such a kind person. Certainly I'd never cheat on her (we've only ever been with each other) but I do sort of wish that she wanted me as much as I want her. She admits she's not a particularly sexual person. We've done some pretty amazing stuff over the years (though I always feel I have to push it) but it's only when she's had a drink - which makes me a little sad if I'm honest.

Sorry for the long whinge off. It's sort of cathartic to get it off my chest. I feel bad becasue she's lovely and we have really made a good life for ourselves. But at what point might you realise that a split is inevitable?

OP posts:
Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:09

She's said that I'm "needy" because when I realised that the relationship (generally) was in trouble I turned to self-help websites and books. I also came here (though I didn't seek out Mumsnet for this specifically) and learned lots of new things - emotional abuse, passive agressive, etc. etc. These were things I'd not heard of before.

Instead of using them properly, I just added them to the armoury and used them to get my wife to see things from my point of view - by essentially constructing an argument that supported the things that would get me the outcome I want so I thought

I think we all do that, and I've always operated on that basis. I would of course let my wife have her say, but becasue I tend to prepare thoroughly I'd always tend to know what she was going to say before she had said it - and would have the counter-argument all stacked up and ready to go. That's what I mean when I say that I "out-argue" her. I suppose though that it's a form of bullying. Sort of.

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Helltotheno · 22/08/2013 09:11

a pretty decent insight into what makes some of us blokes tick

And you're proud of that are you? What a knob!
I don't know why you even posted for advice, since generally you intend to keep going as you were, despite what advice anyone gave.

Get some counselling for your issues and grow up would be my suggestion.

LoisPuddingLane · 22/08/2013 09:13

And you can really tell if someone has been watching a lot of porn. I am going to tell you a story - it's very personal, and it may give my identity away to people who have posted elsewhere on the internet - I was befriended by this very young man, through Facebook. He was very keen and what it boiled down to was that he wanted me to relieve him of his virginity.

I wasn't doing anything that weekend so I thought it might be nice. He's the first virgin (and I do think he was) I've ever come across with shaved pubes. And everything he did was a bit like a porn video, including the fact that only our genitals were touching - this is done in porn to facilitate camera angles.

There were a number of reasons that I didn't see him again, one of which was that the next day (and bear in mind this was after his first time ever) he asked if I took it up the arse. Because this happens so commonly in porn that clearly he thought it was a natural progression.

This is what happens to expectations...

Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:14

LPL: It's very difficult to explain. The only way I can explain it is to say that most of us could happily down a few drinks and then not drink for a few days/weeks/whatever. An alcoholic would struggle if he didn't have a drink everyday.

So for us "normal" people, staying out of the pub for a week, would be no big deal. For an alcoholic, that same feat is much harder.

It's not always helpful (but I accept it is sometimes) to draw direct comparisons.

OP posts:
Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:18

Helltotheno: You're quite puzzling. It's not something I'm proud of. I didn't say that I was. Oddly enough, in the space of 24 hours, I've begun to understand that some of what I expected was/is totally unreasonable. I'm in a very different place. Very different.

LPL: Slightly shocked, but thatnks for sharing (again, there's a degree of truth in it). Shock

OP posts:
LoisPuddingLane · 22/08/2013 09:19

I just added them to the armoury and used them to get my wife to see things from my point of view - by essentially constructing an argument that supported the things that would get me the outcome I want...I think we all do that

No we don't. Again, that is borderline abuse. It is about using any means possible to wear her down to get what you want.

I don't understand the alcoholic comparison - what do you mean?

CoffeeandScones · 22/08/2013 09:20

OP, are you suggesting you have an addiction to sex?

whosshe · 22/08/2013 09:22

Contrarian I'm sorry to say that you are bullying her, and I think you are an agressive stonewaller too. It's a shame she thinks the same sort of behaviour would be tolerated at a counselling session, as it would not, and maybe you would be able to have a proper discussion about your relationship if someone was refereeing it, and pulling you up on your behaviour.

For a lot of women, when faced with this sort of abuse regularly, a little bit of their love for their husband dies every time the husband treats the wife like this.

It's wearing, exhausting and often the abused side of the relationship shuts down and gives up, as it is easier than gettng hurt anymore.

Stonewalling and bullying raises feelings of anexity, lowers self esteem, and makes the other person feel isolated. Often they will try being nice to break through, and end up tying themselves in knots to resolve the bad atmosphere.

From a psychology website "In aggressive stonewalling, the stonewaller knows that the silence, cold shoulder, and emotional isolation hurt his partner. He stonewalls to gain leverage or power. This is a common tactic in battering relationships, in which the more powerful partner systematically controls or dominates the less powerful one."

Does that sound like mr grumpy?

ExcuseTypos · 22/08/2013 09:23

I'd always tend to know what she was going to say before she had said it

Pretty shocked by this. You can't know what someone else is going to say before they've actually said it. It's a very arrogant way to think. Why do you even bother talking to your wife if you already know what she'll say?

Or why don't you try actually listening to her.

Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:24

LPL: We do all do that. What we don't all do (perhaps) is prepare and plan with the precision that I do. I'd stop short of calling it abuse - but I acknowledge that it's not healthy. My wife isn't an idiot by the way. She's generally an outgoing confident professional.

CaS: I didn't think I was..... honestly I didn't. highly sexed yes, but not addicted.

OP posts:
whosshe · 22/08/2013 09:25

It's too early - excuse the spelling mistakes, I meant anxiety

LoisPuddingLane · 22/08/2013 09:26

We do not "all" do that. Please stop speaking on behalf of everyone, in order to normalise your behaviour.

Helltotheno · 22/08/2013 09:26

I'm not puzzling at all. You started a thread about how your wife didn't want sex, mouthed off all the usual (what I now know were) platitudes just to ingratiate yourself with the primarily female readership of the forum. Gradually, you drip fed to the point where you exposed yourself as passive aggressive, unreasonable, a bully, needy, porn-dependent (or at least influenced) and quite frankly, unable to keep sex in perspective, then to cap it all, you say you're getting it an average of once a week ... with a wife who works a stressful job, with two small kids thrown in...

Not only that, but we also now know that you equate the lifestyle you've given her with her putting out in direct proportion (please don't keep talking about 'improving' your sex life). More recent admissions are that you talk her down and effectively bully her. Like I said, if what you want is a convenient set of orifices that you can have sex on at will, just enter a professional arrangement.

Your wife is not the problem, you are. You need to speak to someone about your view of what a partnership is because it's hella skewed at the moment.

Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:32

ExcuseTypos: "I'd always tend to know what she was going to say...."

I'm paid a reasonable amount of money to do exactly that. Anticipate, position and negotiate. Wrongly though, I bought it into my marriage.

I feel awful that I may be abusing my wife in some way. I'm not entirely comfortable with the term abuse here though perhaps it is

I don't do these things to dominate, not unless I think it'll directly get me what I want. Which is to say, I don't intentionally grind her down systematically in order to get my own way. Part of my strategy (it feel like I'm talking about someone else) is to make sure she feels engaged in what we're doing. i realise I do this by asking leading questions that I know (with a reasonable degree of certainty) the answers to. I feel bloody terrible for her now I've seen it written like that.

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LoisPuddingLane · 22/08/2013 09:37

I do tend to approach these matters over something that can be negotiated over. I will often "win" the arguement or wear her down and then when things inevitably don't improve, it starts all over again.

I just added them to the armoury and used them to get my wife to see things from my point of view - by essentially constructing an argument that supported the things that would get me the outcome I want...I think we all do that

What we don't all do (perhaps) is prepare and plan with the precision that I do.

These words clearly demonstrate you are a bully, and that you prepare and plan a campaign to get what you want from your wife. If it doesn't work you start again. The poor woman - not a word about her needs or desires.

Leverette · 22/08/2013 09:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:38

LPL: We all do (when engaged in debate or discussion) use our experiences and things we've learned, read, been told or seen. It'd be difficult to engage otherwise.

I've acknowledged that when I do these things, it's premeditated - and that's probably unusual.

Helltotheno: My wife not wanting sex, and me not having (whiat I think is enough or decent) sex are not the same thing.

Also, I've gone to great lengths to disabuse you of the notion that I equate my providing with her need to perform That's just rubbish.

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Sheshelob · 22/08/2013 09:38

"Hella skewed"

I like the cut of your jib, Hells.

LoisPuddingLane · 22/08/2013 09:43

We migh use our experiences and things we've learned, but not with the intent you display. Your wife must be sick of this because, as you've said, if things inevitably don't improve, it starts all over again.

Improve. What does this mean? If she doesn't give in to your badgering for sex more than once a week? If she doesn't moan and shout RIGHT THERE RIGHT THERE and bend herself all over the place sticking her boob in her mouth?

Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:45

LPL: Absolutely correct.

the more I think about it, I suppose I didn't think myself a bully as I didn't (consciously) control my wife. She is very much in control of her own life. She makes decisions about some things which perhaps (I'm guessing here) are more usually taken as a couple. She (has said that she) likes that sense of empowerment and freedom - and in 16 years, I have only ever vetoed one thing.

Bullying to me was always something quite different. In that sense, I guess I'm old school - for example domestic violence to me was when one partner or the other used physical violence. I recognise now that it takes different forms.

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Lemonylemon · 22/08/2013 09:49

"I feel bloody terrible for her now I've seen it written like that."

Then you need to do a LOT of apologising to her..... In her shoes, I'd be horrified that I was being manipulated the way you appear to have manipulated your wife.

LoisPuddingLane · 22/08/2013 09:50

If you plan and prepare these verbal campaigns to get her to have more frequent and more porn-like sex, that is bullying. I feel so sorry for her - she's never going to be enough is she? Not often enough, not wild enough? And she's never given the space emotionally to feel that she wants you from her own desire rather than sandbagging yours.

Sheshelob · 22/08/2013 09:50

"Sense of empowerment"?

"Vetoed"?

Wow. You think you are in Undercover Boss in your own life.

Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:52

I did aplogise this morning. The problem is that it's going to take a long time to talk her around as she'll need to be sure that I'm not manipulating her (I've done that in the past with apologies). When I did (once) make an effort not to manipulate her, she said I was patronising her. a reflection on how dysfunctional we've become I guess

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Original poster
Contrarian78 · 22/08/2013 09:56

That was a bit David Brent actually. Obviously the conversations are a little more normal. I recall the discussion around the sense of empowerment came about as I was questioning her about whether she felt helpless (one of those leading questions where I 'knew' what the answer would be.

Vetoed - that was a sofa she wanted to buy which when she insisted I went along to look at it, i realsied that it was made out of a material that puts my teeth on edge she'll be buying one now

OP posts: