Cheating - what's a dealbreaker for you and what could you forgive?

[tallielikesthesky]

Friend has just told me that 6 months ago she discovered her 'd'h had had some sort of 'almost affair' and it's shocked me how different our opinions on it are.

Apparently she found messages on his phone - OW lived in city her DH was travelling to a lot for work at the time and there were weeks worth of daily texts messages, talk about sex (likes etc, not sexting) , references to them meeting up, to ow being a good kisser and something about them sharing a bed but not having sex (OW had apparently broken it off saying she couldn't go any further than they'd gone with a married man but apologised to the wanker that he hadn't got what he wanted but she'd hoped he'd enjoyed spending the night with her).

Friend said she was upset but because she could tell from messages that they hadn't had sex and it was over she didn't really consider it an affair and had forgiven him. Apparently him performing oral sex on someone else or having full sex are the only dealbreakers for her.

I know it's easy to say things hypothetically but to me that's a proper affair and I just don't think I could forgive him. All the secrecy, kissing and sleeping in the same bed would be too much for me and would ruin any trust I had in him. I reckon I could forgive a drunken kiss with a stranger but nothing more.

Now I'm wondering which is more common. At what point would you be unable to forgive? Sexting? Kissing someone else? Sleeping in same bed? Receiving/giving oral sex? Full sex?

At what point do you think an emotional affair become unforgivable?

Ledkr - not at all. The affair was down to DH's issues, flaws and poor coping mechanisms - all of which he has worked on. Post affair, we have had more stresses (close family's serious illnesses & a death) but he coped

As for me straying, its very unlikely because I know how damaging it is and also I am much more aware of having strong boundaries. I am not naive enough to think I would never ever be tempted though - I have been propositioned several times and have found other men attractive but have never been tempted to take things further.

Those are the things that I was afraid of. I was afraid that i'd spend all my time worrying about where he was or that I wasnt good enough for him.
For me I do think I would have ended up cheating myself.
I was young and attractive with a good social life and temptation would have popped up and id have found it hard to say no.
This is the internal converstaions we must all have and each are different depending on the circumstances at the time.
As I said though we did have other problems and the boys knew the ow (girl) so I had to be loyal to them too, they still dont bother with him much and hate whats hes done.
They are though brilliant partners and one a father.That is lovely for me to see.
It seems that whatever choice we make, we can come through and emerge as better people, I learned so much from my split. Never to take anything for granted and enjoy life a lot more.
That is a great message for others to take on board.
Whatever you choose to do you can come through this and feel happy again.

"No I honestly don't worry about that in the least. We both think that's less likely to happen now than before and that we're less likely to face that sort of relationship dilemma than couples or individuals who've never been through this."

^ That sums up how I feel.

I think childbirth is a fairly good analogy of what going through an affair feels like:

You know it'll hurt, but no one can ever explain to you in what way.

You think you know how you'll deal with it, but actually until it happens you have no idea.

Whilst it's happening you may feel like you want to die, but when it's over there will be a massive sense of release and you will be better off than before... either because you are free from a bad relationship, or because you have survived and started again.

You know that having survived it once you could do so again, but it would be less painful and the end outcome would probably be quicker.

onefewer I think that is what I was trying to say, if the one having the affair is committed to working on 'why' then some discussion can be had. Foisting all responsibility onto the 'victim' is hideous and no discussion imo can be had.

Yes I agree with that message Ledkr.

It's so important in my view that whatever the outcome, the people involved keep/develop a strong sense of self and determine that while this experience might shape them, it won't define them. Back to self-awareness, I think I'd have been the sort of person who would have tried to make the outcome positive and count for something which ever way it had gone. You sound like that too!

I worry more about people who lose themselves. This can happen to women who stay for the wrong reasons after infidelity with partners who've learnt nothing as it can to women with unresolved hurt who go it alone. That covers a fairly wide range of behaviour and emotions; retaliatory infidelity, bitterness, resentment, becoming an OW themselves, adapting their behaviour to prevent cheating in current or future relationships. There are probably more, but these are the ones I've seen myself in other people.

I wonder too that if it did happen again one might find it more easy to leave.
I had a lot of guilt for my decision as it was based purely in what was best for me. My mother and his tried to convince me to forgive but I didn't even want to. He knew I'd do it as I'd always said I would so I felt no pity for him.
If you've given it your best shot then you might feel more at peace with your decision to walk away.
I certainly came to my second marriage with a different outlook and as a while person not needing "another half" but another whole person.
Such a very painful experience to go through though.

From what you've said Ledkr about your husband's flagrancy and your children's painful awareness of it, it sounds like it was the best decision for all of you. I admire your strength in the face of opposition and pressure and I honestly cannot imagine making a different decision to the one you made, in the same circumstances.

Thank you family I think it was and he has gone on to develop into not a very nice man tbh.
If he'd have carried on his metamorphosis from kind hardworking family man into weed smoking overgrown chav then I'd have ended it anyway.
For me it turned out to be life changing for the better (dh is amazing) but for many it's not so good.
If only people thought before acting.

May I ask all you sorted wives: How do you, or will you, handle the eventuality that one of you is attracted to another, who's attracted to you? I'm assuming you're all beautifully aware of the processes leading towards inappropriate involvement, but they're incredibly subtle variations on ordinary good relations with colleagues, say, or friends' partners.

See, I think I know and think I'm dead good at re-railing dangerous relationships. But I've no clue how I'd even begin discussing that with a partner when one of us was in the middle of it.

I would like to say I could forgive a drunken snog but I am not sure TBH, I can't imagine either of us putting our marriage and family on the line for a drunken snog, it almost seems worse as is so pointless.

Anything else definitely not and DH knows my feelings about this. It is definitely black and white for me and him also I think.

Regardless of remorse I just don't think I could forget about it and would never trust him again.

Garlic - its about having strong boundaries e.g putting distance between you both, making sure there are other people around, no personal communication via emails/texts, not sharing personal confidences/stories and generally not putting yourself in risky situations.

Yes, that's a very good point about blocking unduly personal sharing, Choc. Thanks!

It's all a bit peculiar, isn't it ... Slight diversion here, but I've remembered the office lothario from my last job. He launched a massive charm offensive at me (it was my turn,) ending in a heart-rending lunch where he pleaded to know why I blocked his advances. I told him it was dead simple: I don't 'do' married men. Surprisingly, since this was the workplace that bullied me into a breakdown, I later learned he'd told everyone what I'd said as a mark of respect for me!

I believe I have tried to raise concerns about line-crossing friendships with past partners. However, I was married to arseholes so it's probably inevitable that I don't know whether I did it right or not.

Garlicgrump we used to talk about this a lot and we did so retrospectively as well as hypothetically. For example, having been honest about previous temptations we'd had, we shared the strategies we'd both used to steer clear at those times. There were no shocks or surprises, we knew about the existence of those people at the time but we'd both had a tendency to talk about their attraction to us and had failed to admit our attraction to them. This is yet another example of what we thought at the time was the most honourable, least hurtful way of behaving to a partner.

There really weren't many over 20 odd years; and it had happened more to me, than my husband. Interestingly, his had been more of the instant kind e.g. a stranger who'd attached herself to the group he was with at a social occasion who was good company and who asked for his number at the end of the evening - and another who'd been very explicit about what she was offering in exchange for a business-related favour! The first woman was possibly unaware of his marital status until he put her straight and she made a gracious exit, but the second said 'So what? So am I" when he said he was married. Neither of these had been especially tough calls for him, because there had been no relationship or build-up. More a case of if they'd both been single, he might have.

Mine had been more friendship related and always at work. Friends' partners incidentally would have been a complete no-no for both of us. But the strategies I'd used were the ones he should have used when for the first time, he had a friendship where there was mutual attraction. Mine were to talk about my marriage, minimise contact, tell H about the person and ask his advice about warding off trouble.

We'd both had experiences of others having unrequited crushes on us and they'd presented us with no dilemmas at all, because the attraction was unreciprocated each time. Neither of had ever had unrequited passions of our own.

If this ever presented again, we've agreed we'll be honest if there's any temptation on our side, but it just hasn't happened. Being a pragmatist again, we are both older and the opportunities are likely to be fewer, but arrogant though this might sound, we've both always had very high standards about the sort of people we'd find attractive and if anything, those standards are definitely higher than they were when younger. For example, he's said he would now take a dim view of a woman who wasn't bothered by his marital status, whereas before he was flattered and still found her attractive despite that and when I look back with a mature head and recall some of the men I've found attractive in the past, I don't think I would now.

I don't think we'd fear that sort of conversation now. But having agreed we'd have it, I just can't imagine either of us feeling like that now. Maybe because we'd take even more precipitative action before even feeling tempted now? Interesting question.

Garlicgrump - part of it is being completely aware that attraction to another is possible - some would say inevitable. Either of us can go any time we want to - it's not a prison. But, the boundaries are about faithfulness while we choose to stay. I can pursue someone I find attractive any time I want, but I can't do it while I'm with him.

So, the choice is simple - do I give up what I have (amazing - still in love, proper partnership and friendship) to pursue what is in all likelihood a passing fancy and uncertain future? No. That would probably be pretty stupid and would hurt everyone involved. But, if I started swaying towards a 'yes' response, that would probably indicate that there was something in my existing relationship that wasn't working. I'd have to make a decision about my existing relationship before I made one about a pending/possible relationship.

I'm not saying this as a hypothetical scenario - during our relationship both my DH and I have been pursued by others. Indeed, when I was being pursued most recently, it was my DH who pointed out our "friend's" attraction to me and his inappropriate behaviour. We talked about how to deal with it as a couple. We laugh about it now. I was also contacted by an old flame from when I was a teen. I had a real thing for this guy back in the day and we had a pretty 'convenient' relationship that was lots of fun. I felt the attraction (again) almost as soon as we started chatting on FB. It was pretty easy to figure out when to de-friend him - the conversation turned from 'how are you' to 'do you think about when we used to ...' I de-friended him with a gentle good bye, and talked about it honestly with DH afterwards. DH says he's lucky to have me. We're lucky to have each other, really.

Garlic - for us it is a case of not doing, or saying anything we wouldn't be happy doing or saying with our partner present. So if a friendship gets to the point where you would not be happy with your DH being a fly on the wall, it has probably got out of hand.

As for agreeing this in advance well to be honest unless a relationship has gone through infidelity of some sort it is not an easy thing to discuss, as it can sound a little paranoid. After all, decent behaviour should go without saying, it shouldn't need to be agreed.

Personally I don't make rules, as if someone is going to cheat they will do so whether there is a rule about it or not. My DH has the freedom to go where he wants and see who he wants. He is aware though that if he crosses the line again, with anyone, or if he sparks up communication again with ow (no matter how innocent it may be) I'm out of here.

I guess it is a case of consequences rather than constraints.

Thank you for replies :) This is key, it seems to me: "tell H about the person and ask his advice about warding off trouble". I agree, too, that a couple would be unlikely to do this before having experienced the 'trouble'! Some argument here for pre-commitment counselling, perhaps?

My view is that the implicit should become the explicit before trouble strikes. For example, it's explicit in our culture that we'll all enjoy friendships, working relationships and banter with the opposite sex but what's implicit is that everyone's got boundaries and has the intuition and wisdom to draw them at the appropriate times. That's a massive clash of cultural expectations that isn't borne out of reality and it would be far better and more grown-up in a way if couples did talk about these issues rather than blithely assume you'll both negotiate these situations with aplomb.

Everyone's deal breaker is different, my EH broke the deal by having an affair with my best mate but I know people who have tried again after an affair and its worked and there marriage is better for it.

if I was ever in a new relationship I would not forgive anything more than a drunken one night kiss. ......possibly :)

Worcestershire Sauce how lucky you are.

I would have longed for that - I know what I contributed to the problems, and are actively working on them. But I am doing it for me.
But H NEVER opened up.

It is because he can't. He is actually not capable of a mature love and he and OW are funnily enough, very suited. Workaholics, shallow, immature, like all that teenagy intense 'soul mate love' stuff.

wellwobbly I know I'm lucky, if one can be lucky in these situations. My DH for all the pain he put me through isn't fundamentally at heart a bastard. Even my parents see that, and believe me an Irish mammy does not look kindly on any man who hurts her daughter.

If it is any consolation your DH will not be happy with ow either. Selfish self obsessed work-a-holic types need a stable balanced capable person at home to run their lives. Once the gloss wears off they'll just be another miserable couple who spend most of their lives with their colleagues, and all of their time thinking of only themselves.

Don't for one minute blame yourself for any of what happened. We all make mistakes in relationships, but his refusing to open up, discuss, and resolve things is his failing.

You sound lovely, I'm angry with him on your behalf.

I have forgiven an affair, emotional and physical. Well 'forgiven' is not quite the right word, accepted that it happened and we are reconciling. If you had asked me prior to finding out I would have said I'd not have forgiven. But the reality is very different. So I would say unless you've been there you really can't say what you 'would' do.

"Maybe people are put off posting because there's a vocal minority who infer that women are stupid and insecure for trying to forgive, or who think that their stories apply to everyone else, regardless of the individual circumstances?"

Quite. Betrayed spouses get treated like they are the wrongdoers unless they follow the easy path and LTB. As I said before, you have to be there to know what you will do.

Orm - agreed. I may now be happy in my marriage but some of my friendships have suffered. My closest female friend has been hurtful and catty to me, and others quite cruel in their comments. These self same friends were incredibly supportive and almost exhilarated by the drama when I was separating from him. I sometimes wonder if a certain type enjoys other's misfortune

Orm - totally agree - I usually say I would like to think I would leave but who knows in reality, a part of my also would like to think I could forgive and work on what is not right in the marriage. How things are now I think I would leave as we talk openly and there is nothing as far as I know not right in our relationship however somewhere down the line if things change then it may be a breakdown in our relationship from both sides so the sitation may be different.

I think it is a huge thing to forgive and move on, for a one off affair then I can't believe people would judge so quickly, I do however understand why people would when a partner has cheated more than once. I would have a lot of respect for someone who is willing to make it work especially if it what both partners really want.

I do have a friend who has openly said she would never kick her 'D'H out even if he had an affair. We all suspect he has but she would rather be with someone than no one, he is not a very nice person. I think that is probably where the judginess comes into it, not genuine people in an equal relationship.

"I understand Ledkr's point about why anyone would need a trial run to realise these lessons, but this is linked to the blind trust we've been discussing so refectively on the thread. We had a blind trust in eachother, but one of my husband's fatal flaws was that he had a blind trust in himself. Because we'd had a really good relationship throughout our marriage, he'd had no fears about his ability to be faithful. So the warning bells and whistles failed to sound as loudly as they should have when he started getting addicted to the attentions of the OW and the ego boosts and flattery she supplied. The timing was also disastrous, when he was a particularly low point professionally and was feeling rather beaten up by his industry and his stressful, disliked job."

That is so true. H never ever thought he could have an 'affair' because he loved me. I never once doubted that he loved me. But because that beleive was there - that I was the centre of his life - he didn't take normal precautions. So when someone told him that she loved him, that he was the man for her, he was vulnerable. He always told her that he loved me, that he'd never leave - which was ultimately made her 'end' it or at least pretend to. He didn't hear the bells and was deaf to the whistles.

TBH I am more open to forgiveness as I had what I now know is an EA under similar circumstances many years before. I know how I felt about H at the time, I know I loved him, I know I never wanted to leave. So I am more able to beleive what he tells me and to feel his remorse is genuine.

The only thing that strikes me as a problem still is what several people have touched on on this thread, that I won't forget and it will still inform my actions and feelings years down the line. That bothers me but I guess it's no worse than still limping years after a car crash, or bearing the scar of a burn. Inevitable and natural.